Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
I can't think of a single guy who I deem an ATG where I have questions. What I mean is I know exactly what Robinson and Armstrong and Canzoneri and Arguello and Hagler and Olivares etc could do and couldn't do. I know how they fought various styles, I know how they fought while ahead or while behind, I know how they behaved in desperate situations. In other words they were fully tested.
With guys like the above there really aren't any meaningful "what ifs" left.
Floyd, I think, is one of the five most gifted men of my lifetime. But I don't even know that for sure.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
To be fair to Mayweather which i feel like i have to be because i used to not like the guy. But listen to people shit on him all time almost made me kinda of a fan of his. To be honest with you only fighter Mayweather didn't fight is Pac and thats not just his fault. Also never know the fight might come off anyhow there both still young. If Mayweather not a atg then shit Pac is not either lol which is silly.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
To be fair to Mayweather which i feel like i have to be because i used to not like the guy. But listen to people shit on him all time almost made me kinda of a fan of his. To be honest with you only fighter Mayweather didn't fight is Pac and thats not just his fault. Also never know the fight might come off anyhow there both still young. If Mayweather not a atg then shit Pac is not either lol which is silly.
But that isn't remotely true. Casamyor, Spadafora, Popo, Johnston, Lazcano, Kosta, Hatton, Margarito, Cotto, Williams and Shane were all in top three of divisions when Floyd was there. He fought Shane after it matterred and Hatton at a sub-optimal weight. Here's the problem. He could have fought every one of them. Instead? He fought Justin Jukko and Gregorio Vargas and Emmanual Augustus and Henry Bruseles and Arturo Gatti and Sharmba Mitchell and he blew weight against JMM.
Think about his resume had he made THOSE choices! HOLY CRAP!
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
Mosley the man but he went on vaction when Mayweather came knocking for the fight to happen. Fought Bald for the lineal title you hold so dearly instead of Margarito and Hatton is no fucking Oscar.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
The others you name are kinda eh could really careless dont think they would of done much.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Mosley the man but he went on vaction when Mayweather came knocking for the fight to happen. Fought Bald for the lineal title you hold so dearly instead of Margarito and Hatton is no fucking Oscar.
I didn't complain about either Baldomir or Oscar did I? Both of those were legit, best choice or nearly so fights.
The others I listed? Two different categories of fighters. He unfortunately fought the far weaker bunch.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
Floyd is an all time great, and he's one of the greatest talents to step into a boxing ring in the history of the sport.
Is he a great person? Will he go down as one of the sports most beloved figures? Not a chance.
But if you can honestly say that you think Floyd is not an all time great, you're either biased against the guy (which is understandable), or you don't know boxing.
Floyd is a god damn virtuoso in the ring, and the fact that he's an asshole or he's not fighting Manny doesn't change that.
If we took boxers off the ATG list because they were A) and asshole, B) ducked somebody or C) all of the above, you'd have a list you could count on one hand.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
Like I said in an earlier post, some will see Mayweather as an all-time no matter how he finishes his career. I view Mayweather as someone who failed to live up to his potential, and when his resume, ring activity, and level of competition, is compared to that of all-time greats, like SRR, Duran, Leonard, Hagler, Ali, Foreman, Marciano, and dozens of others, he also fails.
For what it's worth, as for Mayweather having extraordinary talent and ring skills, that may be true, but i've never cared for his style or had much interest in watching him fight.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Floyd is an all time great, and he's one of the greatest talents to step into a boxing ring in the history of the sport.
Is he a great person? Will he go down as one of the sports most beloved figures? Not a chance.
But if you can honestly say that you think Floyd is not an all time great, you're either biased against the guy (which is understandable), or you don't know boxing.
Floyd is a god damn virtuoso in the ring, and the fact that he's an asshole or he's not fighting Manny doesn't change that.
If we took boxers off the ATG list because they were A) and asshole, B) ducked somebody or C) all of the above, you'd have a list you could count on one hand.
Floyd has beaten 15 or so ranked guys and HOFers on what? 2-3 occasions? I can literally name dozens of guys who have done that you wouldn't call ATG's.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
I can literally name dozens of guys who have done that you wouldn't call ATG's.
And I can gaurentee you that none of them had half the ring talent that Floyd does.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
I can literally name dozens of guys who have done that you wouldn't call ATG's.
And I can gaurentee you that none of them had half the ring talent that Floyd does.
So what? Pro boxing is NOT the NFL combine. If we're going to call guys ATG's based on talent?
Better add Tony Ayala Jr, Johnny Bumphus and Michael Nunn.
To be ATG, IMO, one has to apply those talents and prove them out against the finest possible competition.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
I can literally name dozens of guys who have done that you wouldn't call ATG's.
And I can gaurentee you that none of them had half the ring talent that Floyd does.
So what? Pro boxing is NOT the NFL combine. If we're going to call guys ATG's based on talent?
Better add Tony Ayala Jr, Johnny Bumphus and Michael Nunn.
To be ATG, IMO, one has to apply those talents and prove them out against the finest possible competition.
Kind of a change of subject but do you class Oscar as an ATG? He is a man IMO who pretty much fought the best out there and fought at a good level throughout his career and apart from the Pacquiao fight when he was clearly weight drained was never embarassed. I do class Oscar as an ATG if your wondering.
I also class Mayweather ATG too, I know where you are coming from though he has missed some good fighters out that he could have fought and would have beaten IMO BUT in the modern game where everyone seems to want to win as many ABC's in as many divisions as they can it doesn't always work out that way. Sometimes it's easier to fight a lesser opponent, look great and move onto a title shot in your new division then it's time to do it again. Floyd needs to fight Pac otherwise he will always be remembered as the fighter who never faced his biggest rival.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
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Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
I can literally name dozens of guys who have done that you wouldn't call ATG's.
And I can gaurentee you that none of them had half the ring talent that Floyd does.
So what? Pro boxing is NOT the NFL combine. If we're going to call guys ATG's based on talent?
Better add Tony Ayala Jr, Johnny Bumphus and Michael Nunn.
To be ATG, IMO, one has to apply those talents and prove them out against the finest possible competition.
Kind of a change of subject but do you class Oscar as an ATG? He is a man IMO who pretty much fought the best out there and fought at a good level throughout his career and apart from the Pacquiao fight when he was clearly weight drained was never embarassed. I do class Oscar as an ATG if your wondering.
I also class Mayweather ATG too, I know where you are coming from though he has missed some good fighters out that he could have fought and would have beaten IMO BUT in the modern game where everyone seems to want to win as many ABC's in as many divisions as they can it doesn't always work out that way. Sometimes it's easier to fight a lesser opponent, look great and move onto a title shot in your new division then it's time to do it again. Floyd needs to fight Pac otherwise he will always be remembered as the fighter who never faced his biggest rival.
I don't place either in that category. But I try to keep things like that pretty restrictive. I look at Oscar and I say two things. First, an exemplary career in terms of what he tried to do. I mean daring match after daring match. I LOVE that! But I think his biggest win is who? An ancient Chavez? A pretty old Sweet Pea? Pretty clear he got robbed by EPO in the second Shane fight.
I know people want to excuse the current state of the sport when they rank recent fighters, but I'm unwilling to do that. Fighters did what they did.
Let me give an example. Guy named Willie Joyce. Never heard of him right? Never won a title, not in the HOF. But Willie Joyce has wins over ATG Ike Williams twice and a faded ATG in Henry Armstrong (twice). Or a guy like Jose Basora. Again, no titles, not in the HOF. 78 wins including HOFer Fritzie Zivic, HOFer Holman Williams (twice) and a draw with a 24 year old Ray Robinson.
I think we have to be careful with titles like ATG.
Re: Can floyd be an all time great?
Interesting read about what people thought of Floyd 5 years ago, he did eventually fight and beat Shane, Judah, ODH and Hatton. Just a shame he fought Hatton at welter, fought Judah after he lost to Baldamor and never fought Marg/Cotto which would have enhanced his legacy. A quality fighter nonetheless just not an ATG.
