Re: Andre Ward v these fighters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
canelo's chin is much better than andre's. bernard started out at light heavy & only remained at middleweight through dedication like marvin & gennady did. bernard could have remained at middle but there was nothing left for him to do there, so he moved up two weights for the antonio tarver fight
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
canelo's chin is much better than andre's.
How do we know this? No doubt Canelo has a great chin. We know that because it’s been tested on a number of occasions.
But we don’t know about Ward because quite frankly, I’m not sure he’s ever been tested in that department. He’s never looked uncomfortable in a fight from what I can remember.
bernard started out at light heavy & only remained at middleweight through dedication like marvin & gennady did.
And the exact same could be said about Ward.
[/QUOTE] bernard could have remained at middle but there was nothing left for him to do there, so he moved up two weights for the antonio tarver fight[/QUOTE]
Again, the exact same could be said about Ward. Ward beat everyone.
It’s very difficult to surmise about a fighter when he’s never been beat, because you’re in unknown territory. And Ward was unbeaten since he was 11.[/QUOTE]
if andre has never looked uncomfortable to you in a fight then you haven't watched enough of his fights
you said
"Hopkins was a natural LMW/MW only moving up the weights with age"
i disagree with that & pointed out that bernard started out as a light heavy. i think bernard was more a natural light heavyweight
i watched andre lose, although he got the decision. andre's record is also very decptive. his best wins are over overrated carl & mikkel[/QUOTE]
This thread intrigues me because it’s truly interesting how 2 people can be at complete ends of the spectrum on a fighter without any personal dislike of a guy.
Trust me, I’ve seen plenty of Ward, and against Kovalev , yeah he went down , but he wasn’t uncomfortable. A bit like when Floyd was stunned by Sugar Shane and went on to dominate that round and the fight.
If BHop was a natural LHW, Then why was all his best work at lower weights? That’s just taking advantage of modern day weigh in techniques etc.
in my mind BHop (and I don’t want to be disrespectful) is a poor man’s Andre Ward. He can smother your work and draw you into his fight , but not like Dre does.
One thing I’ll give Hopkins, is the level of fighter he had to fight throughout his career was way above what Ward had to contend with. But we can say that about most modern day greats we compare with guys from previous eras.
To clarify my opinion of Ward, I think he was a great fighter who potentially could have been an ATG, but his career seriously under achieved , mostly down to him and contractual decisions he made (not unlike Crawford).
But why I think highly of him when comparing him with others is because whatever weaknesses we “think” he might’ve had, it’s all conjecture.
And for the record, his win against Froch doesn’t rank particularly highly for me, that was standard business.
Kessler prime was better imo.
Re: Andre Ward v these fighters
it's all just subjective. the discussion is what keeps the forum interesting
"A bit like when Floyd was stunned by Sugar Shane and went on to dominate that round and the fight"
the difference was floyd went on to dominate the fight. andre should have lost but was given the decision. if that's not uncomfortable i'm not sure what is
"If BHop was a natural LHW, Then why was all his best work at lower weights?"
i answered this already & you replied with "the exact same could be said about Ward". bernard got down & stayed around middle because of his dedication. yes modern day weigh ins helped but he was always talked about as a gym rat who lived the life. i would also argue that some of his best work was done at light heavy, not to mention his advanced age at that stage
"in my mind BHop (and I don’t want to be disrespectful) is a poor man’s Andre Ward"
that's exactly how i see andre. bernard had better defence, he was the better counter puncher, i see barnard as the bigger puncher, better chin, ring iq was pretty close but i give the edge to bernard. this one might surprise but i also think bernard was slightly faster. andre was more athletic
i still wish andre dirrell didn't pull out of the super six. the fight might not have been exciting to watch but a fight between the andre's at that time would have been intriguing to watch
Re: Andre Ward v these fighters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
it's all just subjective. the discussion is what keeps the forum interesting
"A bit like when Floyd was stunned by Sugar Shane and went on to dominate that round and the fight"
the difference was floyd went on to dominate the fight. andre should have lost but was given the decision. if that's not uncomfortable i'm not sure what is
"If BHop was a natural LHW, Then why was all his best work at lower weights?"
i answered this already & you replied with "the exact same could be said about Ward". bernard got down & stayed around middle because of his dedication. yes modern day weigh ins helped but he was always talked about as a gym rat who lived the life. i would also argue that some of his best work was done at light heavy, not to mention his advanced age at that stage
"in my mind BHop (and I don’t want to be disrespectful) is a poor man’s Andre Ward"
that's exactly how i see andre. bernard had better defence, he was the better counter puncher, i see barnard as the bigger puncher, better chin, ring iq was pretty close but i give the edge to bernard. this one might surprise but i also think bernard was slightly faster. andre was more athletic
i still wish andre dirrell didn't pull out of the super six. the fight might not have been exciting to watch but a fight between the andre's at that time would have been intriguing to watch
It’s mad how opposite we are on this. Especially the Bernard/Ward opinions from both of us. I think with Hopkins , I tend to hit a bit of a blind spot . I don’t think I truly studied his prime , and maybe I don’t really appreciate him enough.
And I need to rewatch the Kovalev fight because I think Ward’s “struggles” in this fight are over exaggerated.
Re: Andre Ward v these fighters
there are probably many that don't appreciate bernard. he always had a lot to say & what he was usually saying turned a lot of people off. there is no denying his craft though, i lost count how many times he was considered a big underdog & pulled off the upset & being able to compete at world level at fifty says a lot
i think i had the first andre v sergei fight six rounds each with the knockdown winning sergei the fight, andre took most of the later rounds but he was far from comfortable in that fight. i don't think sergei was the same after that decision went against him, in my opinion it broke something in him
Re: Andre Ward v these fighters
Good stuff here. I can also see Hopkins taking Ward but also have to acknowledge division and how-when Hopkins morphed into "old" Hopkins. All hypothetricals are prone to a+b=c type scenarios...he beat him so that means they beat them...but not how it goes. Hopkins will always be the rare specimen who was just that good and talented early days vs his later. He is an atg in maximizing ring longevity alone, though sometimes to a visual negative ;D. Simply can't see him being outhustled or out gritted inside vs Ward up close and more so at 175. Maybe I'm off but can see it being in some way similar to Hopkins-Pascal fights. And yes Hopkins was robbed in the first ;D. Ward of course far above Pascal in keeping his head in chaos and calculation, and the physicality and fast punch like. Fun two-way fight overall but also hope the ref packed his lunch. Maintaining order wise. You're not bullying Hopkins and honestly don't think Ward has the literal in ring depth in long competition near 175. Hopkins gets passed his jab and also masters the head games. Mental and or physical. Which would be off the charts in that one.
Re: Andre Ward v these fighters
Toney beats Ward too. And we're all assuming "the very top form" of greats showing up. Not the man who phoned it in vs Thadzi :-X. Do think Ward can also exploit Toney's flat feet at times and his habit of settling and setting up shop inside...but Toney if anyone finds gaps in Ward and was a master at timing guy's mid exchange/coming in. How about Ward v Eubanks at 168? Talk about the egos too big for the arena.
Re: Andre Ward v these fighters
Andre Ward was elite and Eubank, Benn and Steve Collins were not in his league.
Ward would shred Eubank body if he dared to share the ring with him. Chris was very selective at supermiddleweight.
Nigel Benn would take it to Andre but Son of God would pick him apart to win.
Steve Collins had nothing to offer to trouble Ward. Easy nights work.
Re: Andre Ward v these fighters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Toney beats Ward too. And we're all assuming "the very top form" of greats showing up. Not the man who phoned it in vs Thadzi :-X. Do think Ward can also exploit Toney's flat feet at times and his habit of settling and setting up shop inside...but Toney if anyone finds gaps in Ward and was a master at timing guy's mid exchange/coming in. How about Ward v Eubanks at 168? Talk about the egos too big for the arena.
yeah i could see lights out stopping andre late
