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I have to say think I'm being a bit harsh on Fury of late. He's just pissed me off the last three years or so.
He was on his way towards that top ten himself and a win over Usyk would get him back there if it happened.
Let's be honest he also arguably has the greatest comeback story in boxing/sport of all time.
If we were being critical of Usyk and we have to be if we are trying to debate the best heavyweight champions in history, then he has had only 8 heavyweight fights whilst the others were mainly professional career heavyweights.
Best win would be beating the undefeated Fury (who has not always looked the best when facing opponents, he did not take seriously).
Usyk has had only 5 defences, and his career could end up in a worse state than it is now.
So Dubois, AJ and Fury x 2. Then Chisora.
Who's the other??
you can pick apart all their records, muhammad got lots of gifts, larry got beaten by a light heavyweight, lennox got iced by two fringe contenders, joe louis had the bum of the month club, jack avoided some of the other black fighters, et cetera, et cetera. oleksandr moved up & basically cleaned out the top guys in the divisionQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
I dunno, the hypotheticals and subjectivity is always magnified in atg list as stated earlier. I mean sure 'old Holmes' but also old Holmes who had just schooled Mercer off his destruction of Morrison. A gold medalist Mercer too ;D;). Mercer had just dropped his belt rather than fight Moorer. Thought he had hit the easy lotto with old Holmes, oops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
To each their own of course. But while Moorer will forever be known as the man who shared Foreman history while blinking at the lights, or was detonated by Tua later in career, or a certified terror train at lt hvy who never got his big shot, he wasn't completely crap either. Probably fought the most disciplined fight of his career with Holyfield behind his power jab...and it still should have only been a draw if not for the asinine round 2 scoring. Every single hvy has had their own inconsistency. I mean both Lewis and Wlad were poleaxed at their top and honestly imo by guys lesser than a top form Moorer. Lost to Bowe, then beat him. Lost to Moorer, then beat him. Lost to Lennox, then improved much and gave a very competitive fight. Respect to Lewis. I look at level of consistent top comp moreso I guess. Not running up standard defenses of belts we also dismiss as fans monthly. That's how I see Holyfield big picture. We can asterisk guys with points in respected careers, pick apart records as has been said. But Holyfield has the distinction of defeating and competing with 4 of the named greats on many fans ATG lists. If Tyson makes the cut for some. And people forget it was Tyson who got out of not 1 but 2 contracted fights with Holyfield prior to finally meeting. And I still say Holyfield beats him at any point ;D. That's always been an unwarranted shadow over him I think.
Usyk-Holyfield would have been absolutely fantastic, and half inclined to agree. Can see Usyk mobility, upper body and rapid jab giving Holyfield hell. But also see combination punching and forced exchanges plus for Evander. Also think that as far as his much respected heavyweight run, Usyk with Fury or AJ or Dubois has not faced the same mental make up and overall resolve he would with Holyfield. Honestly two of the hardest wills and minds to compliment the division last two eras. We'll never know just great to have Usyk in company and almost feels like torch passed.
I did say that my opinion could change from one day to the next, and looking at this, I feel that I may have put Foreman a little low for what he achieved, but the basis of that was that while he achieved incredible things, you go through his record and the guys he beat weren’t stellar apart from one or two exceptions (the way he destroyed Norton and Frazier).Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnera
And if I use the same mindset, then maybe I have Usyk a bit high because none of the guys he beat are anywhere near this level INCLUDING FURY! Of course, that’s not his fault. But it just shows how difficult it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliI dunno, the hypotheticals and subjectivity is always magnified in atg list as stated earlier. I mean sure 'old Holmes' but also old Holmes who had just schooled Mercer off his destruction of Morrison. A gold medalist Mercer too ;D;). Mercer had just dropped his belt rather than fight Moorer. Thought he had hit the easy lotto with old Holmes, oops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
To each their own of course. But while Moorer will forever be known as the man who shared Foreman history while blinking at the lights, or was detonated by Tua later in career, or a certified terror train at lt hvy who never got his big shot, he wasn't completely crap either. Probably fought the most disciplined fight of his career with Holyfield behind his power jab...and it still should have only been a draw if not for the asinine round 2 scoring. Every single hvy has had their own inconsistency. I mean both Lewis and Wlad were poleaxed at their top and honestly imo by guys lesser than a top form Moorer. Lost to Bowe, then beat him. Lost to Moorer, then beat him. Lost to Lennox, then improved much and gave a very competitive fight. Respect to Lewis. I look at level of consistent top comp moreso I guess. Not running up standard defenses of belts we also dismiss as fans monthly. That's how I see Holyfield big picture. We can asterisk guys with points in respected careers, pick apart records as has been said. But Holyfield has the distinction of defeating and competing with 4 of the named greats on many fans ATG lists. If Tyson makes the cut for some. And people forget it was Tyson who got out of not 1 but 2 contracted fights with Holyfield prior to finally meeting. And I still say Holyfield beats him at any point ;D. That's always been an unwarranted shadow over him I think.
Usyk-Holyfield would have been absolutely fantastic, and half inclined to agree. Can see Usyk mobility, upper body and rapid jab giving Holyfield hell. But also see combination punching and forced exchanges plus for Evander. Also think that as far as his much respected heavyweight run, Usyk with Fury or AJ or Dubois has not faced the same mental make up and overall resolve he would with Holyfield. Honestly two of the hardest wills and minds to compliment the division last two eras. We'll never know just great to have Usyk in company and almost feels like torch passed.
Too much gets said about Holmes being "old" when he fought Tyson. He had just turned 38. There's been at least half a dozen heavyweights who have been champion at 38.
Also, I'm not always good with dates. But according to BoxRec, Holmes beat an undefeated Ray Mercer in '92, a full four years after getting KO'ed by Tyson.
So Tyson beating up on an "old" Holmes doesn't hold much water.
BTW... Tyson obliterating Holmes still remains one of my favorite fights of all time.
Get what you're saying but 38 back then was much older than it is now if you in turn get what what I'm saying.
In many sports you're seeing athletes competing into late thirties and beyond.
"oh my god he's won the title back at 32" or words to that effect said by Harry carpenter when Ali kayoed foreman.
i get what you're saying, also need to consider some of these older fighters were fight fifteen or more rounds & fighting multiple times a year. if someone fights four times a year now we are amazed at the activityQuote:
Originally Posted by Mark TKO
I am a big Evander Holyfield fan and therefore can critically analyse his career in terms of being a top 10 heavyweight champion for this thread.
I will not be critical of his wins against unmotivated Buster Douglas, getting knocked down by Bert Cooper or defending his titles against “old” Holmes or Foreman and hollow Tyson.
I will be critical against losing twice to Bowe, weak chinned Moorer and Lennox Lewis during his best years as heavyweight champion. That should not make the top 10 list, far too many inconsistent fights to be in the top 10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark TKO
"Whiny" Holmes beat an undefeated (and heavily favored) Ray Mercer a full four years after having been KO'ed by Tyson.
He couldn't have been THAT washed up and "old" when he fought Tyson.
He just got obliterated, a knockout I happily played over and over many times.
I do not want to continue to pick apart Holyfield heavyweight career as champion but when he beat an "old" and "whiny" Holmes, Larry said he was strong but not that skilled compared to the fighters he fought when he was at his peak.
This implied that he would have beaten Evander as was not as good as some of the boxers he faced when he was champion. Holyfield relied on his fitness, activity and conditioning to beat his opponents but he could be out boxed by Bowe, Moorer and Lewis. Usyk would have that chance at heavyweight less so at cruiserweight.
Incidentally @Spicoli, Mercer was dumb for falling into the traps that Holmes set him when he lost to him. Also Mercer beat Morrison should not mean that much of a victory when Tommy was going to get knocked out in a round by Bent. :)
do lennox next, should have been dq'd against mike acey & the oliver rematch should have really been a no contest, two knockout losses when he was at or near his prime
Oh but Lennox destroying Rahman after getting called gay on TV was sweet. ;) :cool:
He was very slack with Rahman. In hindsight it's baffling that he was so ill prepared for that fight and pissing about filming oceans 11 the week before.Quote:
Originally Posted by TIC
The Mccall knock out was lucky and Lewis should have been allowed to continue. Odds were against him surviving that round but a champion on his feet should be given the chance.