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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I will say that I am ALWAYS the person to knock Berto... Not cuz I think he's not legit... Just not sold.
I will say that I was quite impressed with his virtual shutout of Forbes... I did give steve 3 rounds.
He looked very good. He showed me alot the other night.
Good for him
Great Speed!
No he doesn't. I gave you that Jones's LHW resume is better than Shane's LW, but you can't say he wins comfortably on a career, especially in light of his very close loss to Cotto and his whipping a much larger Mayorga. Jones beat up on a lot of B to B+ fighters, but he avoided the best. Shane fought the best. Funny, you give Shane no credit for the Leija win (because he was past it, you say), but you list Reggie Johnson (past his best) and Mike McCallum (past his best, above his natural weight) as pluses in Roy's favor.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBNever made out it was great competition but you brought up Roy Jones's Light Heavyweight resume so i gave you an example of Jones's opposition being much stronger than Mosley's resume at Lightweight, and even if you go overall Jones still wins it quite comfortably.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanPast it Mike McCallum, a much smaller man. He should have fought Reggie Johnson 5 years before at SMW. No, the competition good, but not great, but factor in that Roy had fights at the lower weights against to, maybe three top tier fighters (Hopkins, Toney, and maybe Tate) vs what Shane has fought at the higher weights it wasn't even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
The bottom line is the Shane sought out THE BEST and made those fights happen. There was always an excuse, often financial or locational, why Roy didn't fight the BEST.
Above LW, Shane fought the following: Oscar 2x, Forrest 2x, Winky 2x, Vargas 2x, Collazo, Mayorga, Cotto, and behind that top group, Wilfredo Rivera and Shannon Taylor. If you are going to credit Jones with Reggie Johnson, you better credit Shane with Leija. Can you name a guy that makes you think, wow, I wish Shane would have found a way to make the fight happen!! He has always made great matchups. Jones digs up a retired Tito Trinidad, fights the one of the worst HW beltholders in recent memory, fights guys like McCallum and Reggie Johnson who are past their best. Wastes his time on a bum of the month club when he should have been rematching Toney or Hopkins, or making it happen against Benn, Eubank, or Calzaghe.
I rank Jones above Mosley all-time, p4p, but Shane fought tougher competition, as a whole career. Roy is the better fighter, but Shane is the better man.
I did give Shane Mosley credit for the Leija win bro thats why i listed him. As for who Shane Mosley could of fought.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanNo he doesn't. I gave you that Jones's LHW resume is better than Shane's LW, but you can't say he wins comfortably on a career, especially in light of his very close loss to Cotto and his whipping a much larger Mayorga. Jones beat up on a lot of B to B+ fighters, but he avoided the best. Shane fought the best. Funny, you give Shane no credit for the Leija win (because he was past it, you say), but you list Reggie Johnson (past his best) and Mike McCallum (past his best, above his natural weight) as pluses in Roy's favor.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBNever made out it was great competition but you brought up Roy Jones's Light Heavyweight resume so i gave you an example of Jones's opposition being much stronger than Mosley's resume at Lightweight, and even if you go overall Jones still wins it quite comfortably.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Above LW, Shane fought the following: Oscar 2x, Forrest 2x, Winky 2x, Vargas 2x, Collazo, Mayorga, Cotto, and behind that top group, Wilfredo Rivera and Shannon Taylor. If you are going to credit Jones with Reggie Johnson, you better credit Shane with Leija. Can you name a guy that makes you think, wow, I wish Shane would have found a way to make the fight happen!! He has always made great matchups. Jones digs up a retired Tito Trinidad, fights the one of the worst HW beltholders in recent memory, fights guys like McCallum and Reggie Johnson who are past their best. Wastes his time on a bum of the month club when he should have been rematching Toney or Hopkins, or making it happen against Benn, Eubank, or Calzaghe.
I rank Jones above Mosley all-time, p4p, but Shane fought tougher competition, as a whole career. Roy is the better fighter, but Shane is the better man.
Well Stevie Johnston, Paul Spadaforda, Kostya Tszyu, Antonio Margarito, Felix Trinidad, are a few that come to mind.
And if we are comparing the overall record are we just basing it on best wins, or the best fighters they fought ? i'll assume you meaning comparing just the best fighters they fought well in that case.
Roy Jones
Mike McCallum = shot
Montel Griffin x2
James Toney
Bernard Hopkins
Antonio Tarver x3
Eric Harding
Glen Johnson
Virgil Hill
Reggie Johnson = shot
Felix Trinidad = shot
Shane Mosley
Winky Wright x2
Vernon Forrest x2
Ricardo Mayorga = shot
ODLH x2
Fernado Vargas x2 = shot
John John Molina = shot
Jesse James Leija = shot
Philip Holiday
Wilfredo Rivera = Unsure of but for certain past his prime.
Miguel Cotto
Luis Collazo
To be honest i have to admit that is closer than i thought it would, actually looking at it as a whole like this, but i still think Jones edges it. Considering half Mosley's best opposition there were shot fighters.
Well you could say Hopkins was not prime and Toney was weigth drained.
Roy Jones Jr was more green than Bernard Hopkins so thats not a valid excuse, James Toney was a top 3 P4P fighter and always had weight problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Also you forgot Cotto i mean i think he pretty good fighter to be added. I also think Callozo was also a champ as well was he not.
Jesus christ how the hell could i forget those names ? its because i've been out most of the day and its really late here im tired, but yes with those 2 names on the resume Mosley could well take it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Yea but mosley was not Prime in Vargas fights or Maygoy i mean he was 37 in that fight they were both past there best so like same with Hopkins.
I dont know ICB,Jones had that olympic/Amatuer pedigree (I do not believe that translates fully to the pro's but its experience) and was riding huge spotlight features on HBO,Hopkins was plodding along on BET cards and never in the big time until then.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBRoy Jones Jr was more green than Bernard Hopkins so thats not a valid excuse, James Toney was a top 3 P4P fighter and always had weight problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Well Hopkins did have his fair share of prison boxing fights Spicoli ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsI dont know ICB,Jones had that olympic/Amatuer pedigree (I do not believe that translates fully to the pro's but its experience) and was riding huge spotlight features on HBO,Hopkins was plodding along on BET cards and never in the big time until then.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBRoy Jones Jr was more green than Bernard Hopkins so thats not a valid excuse, James Toney was a top 3 P4P fighter and always had weight problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
I never doubted him. In fact I was attacked on here for saying that he had the potential to be the best p4p fighter in the world. I still see him getting beat off Williams and maybe Margarito at the moment but I think he will overtake them within the next 2 years. His fast hands and good punch power have always been evident but now he is certainly becoming far better in his defence and is showing huge improvement in each fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Fine, we can I agree to disagree, but I'm glad you had the intelligence to really look at it. I would also add that Mosley jumped up 2 divisions to make the big fights with Oscar and Vernon, much bigger, more challenging fight than Stevie Johnson and Paul Spadafora. I actual would have liked to see Mosley fight at 140 and take on Kostya, and That would have been a challenge and a great fight. But I'll give it to you, he probably should have fought Stevie Johnson, but Spadafora hadn't really earned a shot by the time Mosley moved up. It's also funny that "past it Vargas" is natural LWM and 6 years younger, with 20 few fights, and he was coming off good wins over Joval and Castillejo. Past it Mayorga is 2 years younger and much bigger man. It must say something about Shane that younger fighters are past it, but he's still giving young lions like Cotto all they can handle, even with him being past it. His "past it" version seems has certainly held up pretty well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI did give Shane Mosley credit for the Leija win bro thats why i listed him. As for who Shane Mosley could of fought.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanNo he doesn't. I gave you that Jones's LHW resume is better than Shane's LW, but you can't say he wins comfortably on a career, especially in light of his very close loss to Cotto and his whipping a much larger Mayorga. Jones beat up on a lot of B to B+ fighters, but he avoided the best. Shane fought the best. Funny, you give Shane no credit for the Leija win (because he was past it, you say), but you list Reggie Johnson (past his best) and Mike McCallum (past his best, above his natural weight) as pluses in Roy's favor.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Above LW, Shane fought the following: Oscar 2x, Forrest 2x, Winky 2x, Vargas 2x, Collazo, Mayorga, Cotto, and behind that top group, Wilfredo Rivera and Shannon Taylor. If you are going to credit Jones with Reggie Johnson, you better credit Shane with Leija. Can you name a guy that makes you think, wow, I wish Shane would have found a way to make the fight happen!! He has always made great matchups. Jones digs up a retired Tito Trinidad, fights the one of the worst HW beltholders in recent memory, fights guys like McCallum and Reggie Johnson who are past their best. Wastes his time on a bum of the month club when he should have been rematching Toney or Hopkins, or making it happen against Benn, Eubank, or Calzaghe.
I rank Jones above Mosley all-time, p4p, but Shane fought tougher competition, as a whole career. Roy is the better fighter, but Shane is the better man.
Well Stevie Johnston, Paul Spadaforda, Kostya Tszyu, Antonio Margarito, Felix Trinidad, are a few that come to mind.
And if we are comparing the overall record are we just basing it on best wins, or the best fighters they fought ? i'll assume you meaning comparing just the best fighters they fought well in that case.
Roy Jones
Mike McCallum = shot
Montel Griffin x2
James Toney
Bernard Hopkins
Antonio Tarver x3
Eric Harding
Glen Johnson
Virgil Hill
Reggie Johnson = shot
Felix Trinidad = shot
Shane Mosley
Winky Wright x2
Vernon Forrest x2
Ricardo Mayorga = shot
ODLH x2
Fernado Vargas x2 = shot
John John Molina = shot
Jesse James Leija = shot
Philip Holiday
Wilfredo Rivera = Unsure of but for certain past his prime.
Miguel Cotto
Luis Collazo
To be honest i have to admit that is closer than i thought it would, actually looking at it as a whole like this, but i still think Jones edges it. Considering half Mosley's best opposition there were shot fighters.
Jones left bigger fights behind at 168 to fight old Mik McCallum, Montell Griffin, and Virgil Hill when he could have been fighting Joe Calzaghe, and he was wasting early SMW career on Byrd, Vinnie Paz, Eric Lucas, and Bryan Bannon. In may of 1995, he was the #1 SMW in the world, followed by Benn Eubank and Liles. Roy fights old Vinnie Paz, who peaked at 135. Roy is still #1 next year, 1996, followed by Benn and Steve Collins. Roy fights Bannon and Lucas. Come on. He fought journeymen rather than put is big ego related financial demands aside and gone overseas to fight the best. Plenty of American fighters have traveled if they needed to do it to make the best fights happen.
Mosley could have fought Johnson, but he at least he moved up moved up and fought good fighters.
Taeth, the Toney win is more than Shane ever did at lightweight, but I would consider beating Oscar 2x to equal accomplishment to beating Toney. It would have a hard time ranking Toney much higher than ODLH on an all-time p4p list. At the very least, they are pretty close.
I like Berto but he really needs to step up the level of opponents.
Collazo would be a good fight for us to judge how good he really is.
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Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Agreed... I'm just sick of seeing Collazo. :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTONQuote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Agreed... I'm just sick of seeing Collazo. :rolleyes:
I guess Don King still has it ;D
LOL, I'm sure alot of people are sick of him...Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTONQuote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Agreed... I'm just sick of seeing Collazo. :rolleyes:
I guess Don King still has it ;D
Although his record is good and fights decently to good against top flight comp... nevermind was a world champ, he really has just become a gate keeper of sorts. Hatto, Mosley and just viewed as a test for Berto.
Not sure your being as funny as you think,Hopkins was Prison Champ,and there are some guys in Graterford who would eat Mike Tysons babiesQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBWell Hopkins did have his fair share of prison boxing fights Spicoli ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsI dont know ICB,Jones had that olympic/Amatuer pedigree (I do not believe that translates fully to the pro's but its experience) and was riding huge spotlight features on HBO,Hopkins was plodding along on BET cards and never in the big time until then.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Well i got to say Shane wins to me are just as impressive as Jones. I mean he jumped up to beat Oscar and then jump up to fight him again. The secound was not a clear cut win for Shane as the first but still close go either way and still got the win for it so. I would say that Shanes to wins over a prime Oscar and jumping divsions to fight him is better then Hopkins who at the time was not the force of Oscar and Toney was not either i think for me those are wins that made there careers.
Ahhhh... TM, that's why I love you... ;D Well playedQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyNot sure your being as funny as you think,Hopkins was Prison Champ,and there are some guys in Graterford who would eat Mike Tysons babiesQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBWell Hopkins did have his fair share of prison boxing fights Spicoli ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins
....and his graveyard teeth :cwm25:Quote:
Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTON
Berto might be decent but I don't think he's a top level fighter just because he beat Steve Forbes.
Not just that;D all of him... He's friggin boring as shit!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle....and his graveyard teeth :cwm25:Quote:
Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTON
Berto might be decent but I don't think he's a top level fighter just because he beat Steve Forbes.
I seriously question fighting Steve Forbes as a test of anything...
he is a fantastic technical boxer, with an even better chin. BUT, he has no punching power. Therefore, I think that he wasn't a good match for either De La Hoya or Berto in terms of gauging those fighters-- if the other fighter can't hurt you, you're not going to fight the same fight. you're going to take more risks, you're not worried about being countered (Berto definitely wasn't, because he certainly was countered more a than few times), and overall, you're going to set the tone of the fight.
This fight told me little to nothing about how Berto would fair against the WW elites, because none of them fight like him.
He needs to fight Clottey, Quintana, or Cintron before anybody knows anything but their own conjecture.
Personally, I think he should fight Cintron then Cotto cause the bigger guys would probably fucking kill him.
Just seen the Berto fight, he is quick although beating Forbes doesn't prove anything really.
Lets see him step up to the elite
Yeah he looked like he got rocked a few times and was holding on. That doesnt speak alot for his chin, Forbes has weak power. He may have gotten the nickname 2 pounds being how much force he puts in his shots. He lands clean but he isn't knocking out anyone lately. Berto is also pretty short, he's very quick but I gotta see him tested with a puncher.
Cintron is pretty big boy and he can crack. Quintana or Clottey would be better matchups. I'd like to see him in against Clottey. Clottey is an all around better fighter than Cintron and he's not a head case who will melt down if things get tough. He would be a real test, and winning or even a competitive loss would help him.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheit
Cintron could really check Berto's chin. If I was Berto's team, I would rather put him in with Clottey where his his handspeed and workrate would be a big factor, and you wouldn't have to worry about one punch ending the thing. Cintron would be huge risk, low reward. Berto could definitely get sparked by Cintron if he makes a mistake.
What's all the talk about. Did any of you expect anything different from the fight than what happened. I didn't. Forbes was not fighting Berto as some kind of test. He was fighting Berto because he had just fought DLH and he got enough name recognition to get the interest of Berto's handlers. That is what happend.
With that said. Berto did what he had to do and he did it well. Now that some more people got a good look at him it is time he gets that test against some of the top contenders like Clottey, Collazo or even Quintana. I'm sure it will be easy for him to get a fight since he is holding a title. I mean, if you want to be a champion and your options are Williams, Margarito and Berto, who would you fight?
I think they were talikng about Collazo being next, that would be a good matchup.
i think he should fight cotto in jan or feb that way they both have time to train and it would give cotto a chance to become a champ again and at the same time give berto some experience win or lose. clottey wont be such a bad fight either but i rather see him face paul williams
There's absolutly no doubt in my mind that Cotto would slap Berto around... He's not ready for Cotto. Cotto would beat him in every aspect... Power, boxing ability, defense... Berto's edge would be speed but that's it...
Cotto KOs him mid to late.