Still doubting Berto?

[ICB]

Kind of like Roy's was at LHW? Agreed that Shane was best at LW, and it was a relatively weak era. Roy was best at SMW, but he moved up anyway to a safer division. Every notice that that other than James Toney, Roy mostly managed (by luck or by pricing himself) out to avoid the biggest fights out there? It's sad, because he would have beaten Benn or Eubank, but they would have been real challenges and we never got to see it. Too bad Michael Nunn was an idiot and Steve Little had the night of his life. Hmmm. A tall southpaw who can punch...it still upsets me that fight never happened.

Shane moved up in weight to fight bigger names for bigger money and bigger challenge. He was also a true champion and defended belts in high risk fights - Forrest and more significantly, Winky Wright. Fighting Wright was a terrible business decision. At that time, he was coming off beating Oscar and he could have done what people do today, vacate the belts and made a bigger, safer fight. Taking his career as a whole, Shane took more risks and fought better competition.

Well Roy Jones did fight Montel Griffin x2, Mike McCallum, Virgil Hill, Antonio Tarver x3, Glen Johnson, Julio Cesar Gonzalez, Eric Harding, Reggie Johnson, all at Light Heavyweight which isn't bad at all. And certainly better than Shane Mosley's opposition at Lightweight John John Molina, Philip Holiday, Jesse James Leija, Golden Johnson.

Past it Mike McCallum, a much smaller man. He should have fought Reggie Johnson 5 years before at SMW. No, the competition good, but not great, but factor in that Roy had fights at the lower weights against to, maybe three top tier fighters (Hopkins, Toney, and maybe Tate) vs what Shane has fought at the higher weights it wasn't even close.

The bottom line is the Shane sought out THE BEST and made those fights happen. There was always an excuse, often financial or locational, why Roy didn't fight the BEST.

Never made out it was great competition but you brought up Roy Jones's Light Heavyweight resume so i gave you an example of Jones's opposition being much stronger than Mosley's resume at Lightweight, and even if you go overall Jones still wins it quite comfortably.

[RozzySean]

Well Roy Jones did fight Montel Griffin x2, Mike McCallum, Virgil Hill, Antonio Tarver x3, Glen Johnson, Julio Cesar Gonzalez, Eric Harding, Reggie Johnson, all at Light Heavyweight which isn't bad at all. And certainly better than Shane Mosley's opposition at Lightweight John John Molina, Philip Holiday, Jesse James Leija, Golden Johnson.

Past it Mike McCallum, a much smaller man. He should have fought Reggie Johnson 5 years before at SMW. No, the competition good, but not great, but factor in that Roy had fights at the lower weights against to, maybe three top tier fighters (Hopkins, Toney, and maybe Tate) vs what Shane has fought at the higher weights it wasn't even close.

The bottom line is the Shane sought out THE BEST and made those fights happen. There was always an excuse, often financial or locational, why Roy didn't fight the BEST.

Never made out it was great competition but you brought up Roy Jones's Light Heavyweight resume so i gave you an example of Jones's opposition being much stronger than Mosley's resume at Lightweight, and even if you go overall Jones still wins it quite comfortably.

No he doesn't. I gave you that Jones's LHW resume is better than Shane's LW, but you can't say he wins comfortably on a career, especially in light of his very close loss to Cotto and his whipping a much larger Mayorga. Jones beat up on a lot of B to B+ fighters, but he avoided the best. Shane fought the best. Funny, you give Shane no credit for the Leija win (because he was past it, you say), but you list Reggie Johnson (past his best) and Mike McCallum (past his best, above his natural weight) as pluses in Roy's favor.

Above LW, Shane fought the following: Oscar 2x, Forrest 2x, Winky 2x, Vargas 2x, Collazo, Mayorga, Cotto, and behind that top group, Wilfredo Rivera and Shannon Taylor. If you are going to credit Jones with Reggie Johnson, you better credit Shane with Leija. Can you name a guy that makes you think, wow, I wish Shane would have found a way to make the fight happen!! He has always made great matchups. Jones digs up a retired Tito Trinidad, fights the one of the worst HW beltholders in recent memory, fights guys like McCallum and Reggie Johnson who are past their best. Wastes his time on a bum of the month club when he should have been rematching Toney or Hopkins, or making it happen against Benn, Eubank, or Calzaghe.

I rank Jones above Mosley all-time, p4p, but Shane fought tougher competition, as a whole career. Roy is the better fighter, but Shane is the better man.

[ICB]

Past it Mike McCallum, a much smaller man. He should have fought Reggie Johnson 5 years before at SMW. No, the competition good, but not great, but factor in that Roy had fights at the lower weights against to, maybe three top tier fighters (Hopkins, Toney, and maybe Tate) vs what Shane has fought at the higher weights it wasn't even close.

The bottom line is the Shane sought out THE BEST and made those fights happen. There was always an excuse, often financial or locational, why Roy didn't fight the BEST.

Never made out it was great competition but you brought up Roy Jones's Light Heavyweight resume so i gave you an example of Jones's opposition being much stronger than Mosley's resume at Lightweight, and even if you go overall Jones still wins it quite comfortably.

No he doesn't. I gave you that Jones's LHW resume is better than Shane's LW, but you can't say he wins comfortably on a career, especially in light of his very close loss to Cotto and his whipping a much larger Mayorga. Jones beat up on a lot of B to B+ fighters, but he avoided the best. Shane fought the best. Funny, you give Shane no credit for the Leija win (because he was past it, you say), but you list Reggie Johnson (past his best) and Mike McCallum (past his best, above his natural weight) as pluses in Roy's favor.

Above LW, Shane fought the following: Oscar 2x, Forrest 2x, Winky 2x, Vargas 2x, Collazo, Mayorga, Cotto, and behind that top group, Wilfredo Rivera and Shannon Taylor. If you are going to credit Jones with Reggie Johnson, you better credit Shane with Leija. Can you name a guy that makes you think, wow, I wish Shane would have found a way to make the fight happen!! He has always made great matchups. Jones digs up a retired Tito Trinidad, fights the one of the worst HW beltholders in recent memory, fights guys like McCallum and Reggie Johnson who are past their best. Wastes his time on a bum of the month club when he should have been rematching Toney or Hopkins, or making it happen against Benn, Eubank, or Calzaghe.

I rank Jones above Mosley all-time, p4p, but Shane fought tougher competition, as a whole career. Roy is the better fighter, but Shane is the better man.

I did give Shane Mosley credit for the Leija win bro thats why i listed him. As for who Shane Mosley could of fought.

Well Stevie Johnston, Paul Spadaforda, Kostya Tszyu, Antonio Margarito, Felix Trinidad, are a few that come to mind.

And if we are comparing the overall record are we just basing it on best wins, or the best fighters they fought ? i'll assume you meaning comparing just the best fighters they fought well in that case.

Roy Jones

Mike McCallum = shot
Montel Griffin x2
James Toney
Bernard Hopkins
Antonio Tarver x3
Eric Harding
Glen Johnson
Virgil Hill
Reggie Johnson = shot
Felix Trinidad = shot

Shane Mosley

Winky Wright x2
Vernon Forrest x2
Ricardo Mayorga = shot
ODLH x2
Fernado Vargas x2 = shot
John John Molina = shot
Jesse James Leija = shot
Philip Holiday
Wilfredo Rivera = Unsure of but for certain past his prime.
Miguel Cotto
Luis Collazo

To be honest i have to admit that is closer than i thought it would, actually looking at it as a whole like this, but i still think Jones edges it. Considering half Mosley's best opposition there were shot fighters.

[Mr140]

Well you could say Hopkins was not prime and Toney was weigth drained.

[ICB]

Well you could say Hopkins was not prime and Toney was weigth drained.

Roy Jones Jr was more green than Bernard Hopkins so thats not a valid excuse, James Toney was a top 3 P4P fighter and always had weight problems.

[Spicoli]

Well you could say Hopkins was not prime and Toney was weigth drained.

Roy Jones Jr was more green than Bernard Hopkins so thats not a valid excuse, James Toney was a top 3 P4P fighter and always had weight problems.

I dont know ICB,Jones had that olympic/Amatuer pedigree (I do not believe that translates fully to the pro's but its experience) and was riding huge spotlight features on HBO,Hopkins was plodding along on BET cards and never in the big time until then.

[ICB]

Well you could say Hopkins was not prime and Toney was weigth drained.

Roy Jones Jr was more green than Bernard Hopkins so thats not a valid excuse, James Toney was a top 3 P4P fighter and always had weight problems.

I dont know ICB,Jones had that olympic/Amatuer pedigree (I do not believe that translates fully to the pro's but its experience) and was riding huge spotlight features on HBO,Hopkins was plodding along on BET cards and never in the big time until then.

Well Hopkins did have his fair share of prison boxing fights Spicoli

[Mr140]

Also you forgot Cotto i mean i think he pretty good fighter to be added. I also think Callozo was also a champ as well was he not.

[ICB]

Also you forgot Cotto i mean i think he pretty good fighter to be added. I also think Callozo was also a champ as well was he not.

Jesus christ how the hell could i forget those names ? its because i've been out most of the day and its really late here im tired, but yes with those 2 names on the resume Mosley could well take it.

[Mr140]

Yea but mosley was not Prime in Vargas fights or Maygoy i mean he was 37 in that fight they were both past there best so like same with Hopkins.

[RozzySean]

Never made out it was great competition but you brought up Roy Jones's Light Heavyweight resume so i gave you an example of Jones's opposition being much stronger than Mosley's resume at Lightweight, and even if you go overall Jones still wins it quite comfortably.

No he doesn't. I gave you that Jones's LHW resume is better than Shane's LW, but you can't say he wins comfortably on a career, especially in light of his very close loss to Cotto and his whipping a much larger Mayorga. Jones beat up on a lot of B to B+ fighters, but he avoided the best. Shane fought the best. Funny, you give Shane no credit for the Leija win (because he was past it, you say), but you list Reggie Johnson (past his best) and Mike McCallum (past his best, above his natural weight) as pluses in Roy's favor.

Above LW, Shane fought the following: Oscar 2x, Forrest 2x, Winky 2x, Vargas 2x, Collazo, Mayorga, Cotto, and behind that top group, Wilfredo Rivera and Shannon Taylor. If you are going to credit Jones with Reggie Johnson, you better credit Shane with Leija. Can you name a guy that makes you think, wow, I wish Shane would have found a way to make the fight happen!! He has always made great matchups. Jones digs up a retired Tito Trinidad, fights the one of the worst HW beltholders in recent memory, fights guys like McCallum and Reggie Johnson who are past their best. Wastes his time on a bum of the month club when he should have been rematching Toney or Hopkins, or making it happen against Benn, Eubank, or Calzaghe.

I rank Jones above Mosley all-time, p4p, but Shane fought tougher competition, as a whole career. Roy is the better fighter, but Shane is the better man.

I did give Shane Mosley credit for the Leija win bro thats why i listed him. As for who Shane Mosley could of fought.

Well Stevie Johnston, Paul Spadaforda, Kostya Tszyu, Antonio Margarito, Felix Trinidad, are a few that come to mind.

And if we are comparing the overall record are we just basing it on best wins, or the best fighters they fought ? i'll assume you meaning comparing just the best fighters they fought well in that case.

Roy Jones

Mike McCallum = shot
Montel Griffin x2
James Toney
Bernard Hopkins
Antonio Tarver x3
Eric Harding
Glen Johnson
Virgil Hill
Reggie Johnson = shot
Felix Trinidad = shot

Shane Mosley

Winky Wright x2
Vernon Forrest x2
Ricardo Mayorga = shot
ODLH x2
Fernado Vargas x2 = shot
John John Molina = shot
Jesse James Leija = shot
Philip Holiday
Wilfredo Rivera = Unsure of but for certain past his prime.
Miguel Cotto
Luis Collazo

To be honest i have to admit that is closer than i thought it would, actually looking at it as a whole like this, but i still think Jones edges it. Considering half Mosley's best opposition there were shot fighters.

Fine, we can I agree to disagree, but I'm glad you had the intelligence to really look at it. I would also add that Mosley jumped up 2 divisions to make the big fights with Oscar and Vernon, much bigger, more challenging fight than Stevie Johnson and Paul Spadafora. I actual would have liked to see Mosley fight at 140 and take on Kostya, and That would have been a challenge and a great fight. But I'll give it to you, he probably should have fought Stevie Johnson, but Spadafora hadn't really earned a shot by the time Mosley moved up. It's also funny that "past it Vargas" is natural LWM and 6 years younger, with 20 few fights, and he was coming off good wins over Joval and Castillejo. Past it Mayorga is 2 years younger and much bigger man. It must say something about Shane that younger fighters are past it, but he's still giving young lions like Cotto all they can handle, even with him being past it. His "past it" version seems has certainly held up pretty well.

Jones left bigger fights behind at 168 to fight old Mik McCallum, Montell Griffin, and Virgil Hill when he could have been fighting Joe Calzaghe, and he was wasting early SMW career on Byrd, Vinnie Paz, Eric Lucas, and Bryan Bannon. In may of 1995, he was the #1 SMW in the world, followed by Benn Eubank and Liles. Roy fights old Vinnie Paz, who peaked at 135. Roy is still #1 next year, 1996, followed by Benn and Steve Collins. Roy fights Bannon and Lucas. Come on. He fought journeymen rather than put is big ego related financial demands aside and gone overseas to fight the best. Plenty of American fighters have traveled if they needed to do it to make the best fights happen.

Mosley could have fought Johnson, but he at least he moved up moved up and fought good fighters.

Taeth, the Toney win is more than Shane ever did at lightweight, but I would consider beating Oscar 2x to equal accomplishment to beating Toney. It would have a hard time ranking Toney much higher than ODLH on an all-time p4p list. At the very least, they are pretty close.