Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
You're going to compare some joint pain to not being able to dress yourself? Dont be so foolish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
You're going to compare some joint pain to not being able to dress yourself? Dont be so foolish
I know a few guys have snuffed it doing the Tour De France,apparantly theres one pass thats just a death trap if you screw up.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMYeah, I am also too lazy to spend a lot of time looking. I'd be surprised if we are talking about just competitive bicycle racing. But recreational cycling that wouldn't surprise me, as there is a somewhat higher risk of getting hit by a car while cycling, than in the boxing ring. I'd also say the participation numbers are much lower for boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyId have to look it up again,but if you run a google search using Sport Related Deaths,you'll end up finding both the links I found,theyre relatively dry stats to read through. Bicycling is also the leader in juvenile injuries.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
Though for juvenile trips to the emergency room, I was surprised to see that basketball was really high up there,I didnt expect that.
Wait I still had it in my google bar so I looked it up again
Heres one
Sports Injury Statistics - My Child Has - Children's Hospital Boston
Heres another
Sport Injuries and Injury Statistics
There are more links,but my ass is way to lazy to keep digging again
A quick bit research seems to indicate that the most common sports related cause of death is cardiac arrest, which can happen in any sport. The numbers are surprisingly high for young people and cardiac arrest.
I was kind of surprised by the stats, I was expecting Football to be the hands down winner,I didnt expect bicycling and basketball to be that high on the list.
Goes to show,you dont allways know what you think you know
What does extreme joint pain create, a situation where you cant dress yourself,or get out of bed,or walk,or do much of damn nigh anythingQuote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
You're going to compare some joint pain to not being able to dress yourself? Dont be so foolish
Dont be foolish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I don't know where you're getting your information you're using (thin air I would imagine), but these big league teams have trainers and physicians on hand for the athletes, so if you have ONE concussion, you get examined and you're cleared when you're better. They don't wait for you to get knocked out 3 times in a row to pay attention to your health. These leagues take care not to tarnish their reputations so there is a lot more emphasis on safety.
Also, when a player is injured often (particularily with concussions), he becomes a liability and often finds his work options limited (look at Eric Lindros). I'm not saying these big league owners are saints, but its a far cry from letting 45 year old Holyfield, a guy 12 years removed from his prime, get into the ring and fight world champs. Or letting a guy with BLATANT signs of brain damage in 41 year old Riddick Bowe fight on the undercard of a world championship fight.
Not a pleasant state, but there are drugs and treatments you can take to alleviate the pain and improve movement in the joints.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Too bad there are no drugs that can give Gerald McClellan back his sight and ability to walk.
Don't be an idiot, comparing yourself to these brain damaged warriors is incredibly idiotic.
Yes, there are surprises. I understand that motocross racing is physically very taxing. All kinds of punishment absorbed there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyI know a few guys have snuffed it doing the Tour De France,apparantly theres one pass thats just a death trap if you screw up.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMYeah, I am also too lazy to spend a lot of time looking. I'd be surprised if we are talking about just competitive bicycle racing. But recreational cycling that wouldn't surprise me, as there is a somewhat higher risk of getting hit by a car while cycling, than in the boxing ring. I'd also say the participation numbers are much lower for boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
A quick bit research seems to indicate that the most common sports related cause of death is cardiac arrest, which can happen in any sport. The numbers are surprisingly high for young people and cardiac arrest.
I was kind of surprised by the stats, I was expecting Football to be the hands down winner,I didnt expect bicycling and basketball to be that high on the list.
Goes to show,you dont allways know what you think you know
We need to stay clear and on point regards to what we are talking about, or else comparisons are meaningless. Recreation or competition? Death or injury? Also the time period over which statistics are compiled.
I know of at least one Tour de France death that was drug related, because apparently drugs enabled the cyclist to push his body beyond the limits of safety.
But I guess I'm getting off topic here, although all this is useful to make clear that boxing isn't the only dangerous sport, though I'd say it probably is at the top of the list for cumulative brain injury.
Andre WatersQuote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I don't know where you're getting your information you're using (thin air I would imagine), but these big league teams have trainers and physicians on hand for the athletes, so if you have ONE concussion, you get examined and you're cleared when you're better. They don't wait for you to get knocked out 3 times in a row to pay attention to your health. These leagues take care not to tarnish their reputations so there is a lot more emphasis on safety.
Also, when a player is injured often (particularily with concussions), he becomes a liability and often finds his work options limited (look at Eric Lindros). I'm not saying these big league owners are saints, but its a far cry from letting 45 year old Holyfield, a guy 12 years removed from his prime, get into the ring and fight world champs. Or letting a guy with BLATANT signs of brain damage in 41 year old Riddick Bowe fight on the undercard of a world championship fight.
Chris Benoit
I can keep going here
Now if you want to say there should be a national overseeing body, and that brainscans should be mandatory coming off a KO,rather then doing what Mesi did,wait until his liscence expired and re-apply somewhere else.
Now there we would be in agreement.
There are ways to make the sport safer, but your original posit was that the sport itself was more inherently dangerous then other sports.
The statistics dont support that.
Should the rules be tweeked
Yes they should
But it doesnt make boxing more inherently dangerous then any other sport. I also cave,which is seriously inherently dangerous compared to boxing
Id say its changed alot since the abolition of the 15 round fight. Guys leave the sport now,and theyre cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMYes, there are surprises. I understand that motocross racing is physically very taxing. All kinds of punishment absorbed there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyI know a few guys have snuffed it doing the Tour De France,apparantly theres one pass thats just a death trap if you screw up.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
I was kind of surprised by the stats, I was expecting Football to be the hands down winner,I didnt expect bicycling and basketball to be that high on the list.
Goes to show,you dont allways know what you think you know
We need to stay clear and on point regards to what we are talking about, or else comparisons are meaningless. Recreation or competition? Death or injury? Also the time period over which statistics are compiled.
I know of at least one Tour de France death that was drug related, because apparently drugs enabled the cyclist to push his body beyond the limits of safety.
But I guess I'm getting off topic here, although all this is useful to make clear that boxing isn't the only dangerous sport, though I'd say it probably is at the top of the list for cumulative brain injury.
Thats why Im so vehemently opposed to the re-instatement of the 15 round fight, between dehydration, and exhaustion, those guys allmost all walked out of their career punchy.
But lets face the facts,all athletic activities are inherently dangerous, thats why its an athletic activity. If your grandma could be a sprinter,then everyone could.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
The stastics do support that. Boxing is INHERENTLY more dangerous than any other sport because when it is done PROPERLY, someone is injured. Like I said before, the PURPOSE of boxing is to hurt you opponent, and you can't say that about any other non-fight sport.
You also named 2 names, one being a football player and the other a pro wrestler. I'll tell you what, you name as many people brain damaged from EVERY other sport and I'll name everyone brain damaged from boxing, and we'll see who comes up with more names.
You say cycling is more dangerous because it has a larger quantity of injuries, but contrast that to how many people cycle and how many people box.
I assume this is where you got your info from... measuring how many trips to the emergency room each accounted for.
Ok so which of these activities did more people participate in: swimming or boxing? Roller skating or boxing? Baseball or boxing? Riding a bicycle or boxing? ECT ECT
- Basketball: 512,213
- Bicycling: 485,669
- Football: 418,260
- Soccer: 174,686
- Baseball: 155,898
- Skateboards: 112,544
- Trampolines: 108,029
- Softball: 106,884
- Swimming/Diving: 82,354
- Horseback riding: 73,576
- Weightlifting: 65,716
- Volleyball: 52,091
- Golf: 47,360
- Roller skating: 35,003
- Wrestling: 33,734
And again it comes down to how serious an injury is, and I content that an injury to your brain, which is irreversible, is more serious than an injury to a limb, which heals in time.
You mean a free safety isnt trying to injure his opponent?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
The stastics do support that. Boxing is INHERENTLY more dangerous than any other sport because when it is done PROPERLY, someone is injured. Like I said before, the PURPOSE of boxing is to hurt you opponent, and you can't say that about any other non-fight sport.
You also named 2 names, one being a football player and the other a pro wrestler. I'll tell you what, you name as many people brain damaged from EVERY other sport and I'll name everyone brain damaged from boxing, and we'll see who comes up with more names.
You say cycling is more dangerous because it has a larger quantity of injuries, but contrast that to how many people cycle and how many people box.
It would come as a hell of a surprise to every single coach in the NFL. One of the first things they teach offensive lineman is to chop block,thats where you throw your weight right in to the other guys knees. In baseball when they teach you to pitch,they teach you to throw at a guy,you mean a hard spherical object thrown at someones head,isnt intent to injure?
A) No it doesnt, you may even think its healed,but your going to feel it later. This is why I sleep on the couch rather then next to my wife. Im disruptive in bed and disturb her sleep, because of numerous "healed" limb injuriesQuote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
B) I have never had a boxer suffer from repetitive concussion syndrome, but I have seen numerous football players who have
This has become a very interesting thread. Great debates and good info.
Can I respond to this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyYou mean a free safety isnt trying to injure his opponent?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
The stastics do support that. Boxing is INHERENTLY more dangerous than any other sport because when it is done PROPERLY, someone is injured. Like I said before, the PURPOSE of boxing is to hurt you opponent, and you can't say that about any other non-fight sport.
You also named 2 names, one being a football player and the other a pro wrestler. I'll tell you what, you name as many people brain damaged from EVERY other sport and I'll name everyone brain damaged from boxing, and we'll see who comes up with more names.
You say cycling is more dangerous because it has a larger quantity of injuries, but contrast that to how many people cycle and how many people box.
It would come as a hell of a surprise to every single coach in the NFL. One of the first things they teach offensive lineman is to chop block,thats where you throw your weight right in to the other guys knees. In baseball when they teach you to pitch,they teach you to throw at a guy,you mean a hard spherical object thrown at someones head,isnt intent to injure?
OK TM, here is an undeniable fact. Regardless of your feelings about the sport of boxing, striking your opponent in the head such that he suffers an injury (KO) is an integral part of the sport. IT is encouraged and desireable. It is allowed. We applaud it. Even when it doesn't end in KO, do it enough times and you get brain damage.
Deliberately throwing a baseball at someone's head is against the rules. It will get you tossed out of the game. Hell, a couple of pitches that even come close to a batter's head will get you tossed.
See the difference?
Its not avoided at all, it's all very well understood in the Pro Boxing world (& amateurs)... rightly or wrongly it is a calculated risk that is taken by individual choice ..... in very much the same way that Motor Sport, Steeple Chasing & various other sports are .... & not forgetting to mention careers, gulf war syndrome, limbs blown off, death, are all a serious threat, but are calculated against other choices before the individual makes there decision to take part in or have a career in the area they choose..Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
:badass::badass::badass:
But yet it happens in every game almostQuote:
Originally Posted by CGMCan I respond to this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyYou mean a free safety isnt trying to injure his opponent?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
It would come as a hell of a surprise to every single coach in the NFL. One of the first things they teach offensive lineman is to chop block,thats where you throw your weight right in to the other guys knees. In baseball when they teach you to pitch,they teach you to throw at a guy,you mean a hard spherical object thrown at someones head,isnt intent to injure?
OK TM, here is an undeniable fact. Regardless of your feelings about the sport of boxing, striking your opponent in the head such that he suffers an injury (KO) is an integral part of the sport. IT is encouraged and desireable. It is allowed. We applaud it. Even when it doesn't end in KO, do it enough times and you get brain damage.
Deliberately throwing a baseball at someone's head is against the rules. It will get you tossed out of the game. Hell, a couple of pitches that even come close to a batter's head will get you tossed.
See the difference?
And what happens to a wide reciever if he goes over the middle when a safety is sitting in Zone Coverage.
If you said practically having your head removed from your shoulders,you would be correct
The NHL has an entire class of players called thugs,that are only in the league to wallop people,they arent great skaters,they have minimal puck handeling ability,but they can level a guy
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Science-of-a-Knock-Out-Punch this shows the anatomy of a knockout. Quite interestin.
Actually no, you do not get baseballs deliberately thrown at someone's head almost every game. You are just making statements out of thin air. And baseball players wear hard hat's with webbing on the inside. The issue I am making is one of intent and the rules of the game. You can have great baseball without blows to the head and body. Last time I checked, you cannot have great pro boxing without those things. You can't argue against that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyBut yet it happens in every game almostQuote:
Originally Posted by CGMCan I respond to this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
OK TM, here is an undeniable fact. Regardless of your feelings about the sport of boxing, striking your opponent in the head such that he suffers an injury (KO) is an integral part of the sport. IT is encouraged and desireable. It is allowed. We applaud it. Even when it doesn't end in KO, do it enough times and you get brain damage.
Deliberately throwing a baseball at someone's head is against the rules. It will get you tossed out of the game. Hell, a couple of pitches that even come close to a batter's head will get you tossed.
See the difference?
And what happens to a wide reciever if he goes over the middle when a safety is sitting in Zone Coverage.
If you said practically having your head removed from your shoulders,you would be correct
The NHL has an entire class of players called thugs,that are only in the league to wallop people,they arent great skaters,they have minimal puck handeling ability,but they can level a guy
Boxing and other martial arts is unique in that repeated blows to the head is a natural and desireable part of the game. It's how you win or lose. It is allowed and encouraged by the rules. Repeated blows to the head is not allowed and encouraged by the rules in either baseball or football. This is FACT. You can't argue this point.
Focus on this issue TM. I'm talking about what is and is not allowed and encouraged by the rules.
[quote=CGM;647265][quote=Trainer Monkey;647261][quote=CGM;647254]
OK TM, here is an undeniable fact. Regardless of your feelings about the sport of boxing, striking your opponent in the head such that he suffers an injury (KO) is an integral part of the sport. IT is encouraged and desireable. It is allowed. We applaud it. Even when it doesn't end in KO, do it enough times and you get brain damage.
Very true
Interesting,Ive allways taught that body drive was more important then huge biceps,well if thats correct,some scientific evidence to support that.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
I never said BTW that you werent going to get your bell rung in boxing,what I did say was, most sports involve getting your bell rung
Or even worse
Ask Daryll Stingley to do a line dance for you,Christopher Reeves got crippled playing polo for the love of god,Chuck Bednarik hit Frank Gifford so hard they thought he'd killed him
Carl Mays killed a guy in baseball,Don Zimmer has a metal plate in his head from a bean ball
I noticed you avoided the football part,where hitting people is intregal to the game. One of the greatest Hockey songs of all time is "Hit Somebody",sounds very passiveQuote:
Originally Posted by CGMActually no, you do not get baseballs deliberately thrown at someone's head almost every game. You are just making statements out of thin air. And baseball players wear hard hat's with webbing on the inside. The issue I am making is one of intent and the rules of the game. You can have great baseball without blows to the head and body. Last time I checked, you cannot have great pro boxing without those things. You can't argue against that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyBut yet it happens in every game almostQuote:
Originally Posted by CGM
And what happens to a wide reciever if he goes over the middle when a safety is sitting in Zone Coverage.
If you said practically having your head removed from your shoulders,you would be correct
The NHL has an entire class of players called thugs,that are only in the league to wallop people,they arent great skaters,they have minimal puck handeling ability,but they can level a guy
Boxing and other martial arts is unique in that repeated blows to the head is a natural and desireable part of the game. It's how you win or lose. It is allowed and encouraged by the rules. Repeated blows to the head is not allowed and encouraged by the rules in either baseball or football. This is FACT. You can't argue this point.
Focus on this issue TM. I'm talking about what is and is not allowed and encouraged by the rules.
Is there any other sport where the sanctioned and specific intention is to concuss the opponent? (sure, Thai boxing, MMA, Etc), but they are all derivatives of boxing.
:confused::confused:
No dude, I did not ignore football. I specifically mentioned for both baseball and football is that striking your opponent in the head is not allowed and encouraged by the rules. Same thing goes for hockey. This is FACT. Are you reading all of my posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyI noticed you avoided the football part,where hitting people is intregal to the game. One of the greatest Hockey songs of all time is "Hit Somebody",sounds very passiveQuote:
Originally Posted by CGMActually no, you do not get baseballs deliberately thrown at someone's head almost every game. You are just making statements out of thin air. And baseball players wear hard hat's with webbing on the inside. The issue I am making is one of intent and the rules of the game. You can have great baseball without blows to the head and body. Last time I checked, you cannot have great pro boxing without those things. You can't argue against that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Boxing and other martial arts is unique in that repeated blows to the head is a natural and desireable part of the game. It's how you win or lose. It is allowed and encouraged by the rules. Repeated blows to the head is not allowed and encouraged by the rules in either baseball or football. This is FACT. You can't argue this point.
Focus on this issue TM. I'm talking about what is and is not allowed and encouraged by the rules.
OK, let's talk football. Again. I agree that headshots do happen. I do not agreee that a head blow is a natural and desireable part of the game, nor do I agree that the majority of players try to knock their opponent off their feet by deliver a shoulder block directly to the head, on purpose. Same for hockey. It happens, but it is not a normal and desireable part of the game.
:)
Trent Green almost had his career ended by what?Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMNo dude, I did not ignore football. I specifically mentioned for both baseball and football is that striking your opponent in the head is not allowed and encouraged by the rules. Same thing goes for hockey. This is FACT. Are you reading all of my posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyI noticed you avoided the football part,where hitting people is intregal to the game. One of the greatest Hockey songs of all time is "Hit Somebody",sounds very passiveQuote:
Originally Posted by CGM
OK, let's talk football. Again. I agree that headshots do happen. I do not agreee that a head blow is a natural and desireable part of the game, nor do I agree that the majority of players try to knock their opponent off their feet by deliver a shoulder block directly to the head, on purpose. Same for hockey. It happens, but it is not a normal and desireable part of the game.
:)
Repetitive Concussion Syndrome
Troy Aikman,Steve Young,Andre Watters,its part of the game.
The first thing they teach you if you play defense is to lay a hit on a guy.. The best sack I ever layed on a guy playing defensive end,I thought I killed the kid,I leveled him so bad I had to push off of him just to get up. And then I turned around and formed up in the huddle.
You may not like it,but most sports that we actually watch are blood sports,if you dont like that,watch golf
Sigh. This thread is about boxing and the brain. And to a larger extent brain injury in sport. I have tried to point out that boxing and some martial arts is a little bit different than other sports, in that intentional blows to the head (which is where the brain is) are an integral, natural, and desireable part of the sport. It is the very definition of the sport. It's how you win. I find it oddly compelling to watch someone who calls himself a boxing professional (you) refusing to acknowledge this difference. I don't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyTrent Green almost had his career ended by what?Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMNo dude, I did not ignore football. I specifically mentioned for both baseball and football is that striking your opponent in the head is not allowed and encouraged by the rules. Same thing goes for hockey. This is FACT. Are you reading all of my posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
OK, let's talk football. Again. I agree that headshots do happen. I do not agreee that a head blow is a natural and desireable part of the game, nor do I agree that the majority of players try to knock their opponent off their feet by deliver a shoulder block directly to the head, on purpose. Same for hockey. It happens, but it is not a normal and desireable part of the game.
:)
Repetitive Concussion Syndrome
Troy Aikman,Steve Young,Andre Watters,its part of the game.
The first thing they teach you if you play defense is to lay a hit on a guy.. The best sack I ever layed on a guy playing defensive end,I thought I killed the kid,I leveled him so bad I had to push off of him just to get up. And then I turned around and formed up in the huddle.
You may not like it,but most sports that we actually watch are blood sports,if you dont like that,watch golf
edit: I am also a fan of the sport of boxing. Let's be clear on that point. Golf is good too. The pinpoint accuracy to which golfers can send a small object over long distances impresses me.
Actually I believe it was about 10 or 11,and as is norm increasing in regularity.One thing about football compared to boxing is the individual basis that members compete on.And when a free safety comes flying across open field and lays out a reciever,it does not have to be a headshot.The concussive force of impact,mass per mass can result in an equally emphatic "KO".Boxing is just as much a training of defense as it is an offense but when a defensive specialist is in the ring....fans often react not so kindly unless they implement telling offense as well,landing shots.In football a guy streaks down the sideline for a returned TD,avoiding tackles the entire way,they are superstars.When a Linebacker flattens a QB,they are monsters......A boxer must be both at once.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethHe has had what three concussions? A fighter can have that many in one fight, it doesn't receive the stigma because its nowhere near as bad, and even football is a sport that is now considered a no-no. Actually helmets help with brain damage, hence why you should wear a helmet when riding a bike or motor bike. If you don't believe try falling on your head without a helmet, and then with one, it acts like a cushion, and your brain doesn't move as much. They actually make a bigger deal about football players getting concussions than they do about boxers or guys like Wladimir Klitschko would never fight again. Because everytime you get a concusion its easier to get another one, and they get progressively more dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins
Also its not the glove size, but how its made, sparring gloves actually cushion the blow, they have padding that absorbs a significant portion of the power that normally would land on someone. A pro glove is harder, and those there is less of a cushioning effect, and that does make a huge difference, there is a reason why it doesn't effect you as much, and that does mean less brain injury.
The point about the helmuts/headgear I'm making is that a boxer has more mass of the head to connect with.Even a clipping shot,regardless of gloves sends shockwaves through the cranium.Not visually devastating but what happens inside the head can not be seen.Honestly,It would be interesting to hear from some of our Boxing members.I have never been in the ring and the best testament I can give to being concussed are squabbles on the pavement....when I was out numbered of course:-X. Look,we as fans understand what we are seeing,Boxing is a beautiful sport of offense AND defense.Sadly tragedies happen and it is incumbent on us,as well as everyone involved ,to minimize those risks.We should speak openly of it and this thread needs to be spoken on.Nice to address it but I'd be a hypocrite to berate and single out boxing as a lone culprit.I in a very small way,'except' the dangers and after effects....but that pales and is utterly insignificant to what fighters face every time they climb through the ropes.
My intial point beingQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsActually I believe it was about 10 or 11,and as is norm increasing in regularity.One thing about football compared to boxing is the individual basis that members compete on.And when a free safety comes flying across open field and lays out a reciever,it does not have to be a headshot.The concussive force of impact,mass per mass can result in an equally emphatic "KO".Boxing is just as much a training of defense as it is an offense but when a defensive specialist is in the ring....fans often react not so kindly unless they implement telling offense as well,landing shots.In football a guy streeks down the sideline for a returned TD,avoiding tackles the entire way,they are superstars.When a Linebacker flattens a QB,they are monsters......A boxer must be both at once.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethHe has had what three concussions? A fighter can have that many in one fight, it doesn't receive the stigma because its nowhere near as bad, and even football is a sport that is now considered a no-no. Actually helmets help with brain damage, hence why you should wear a helmet when riding a bike or motor bike. If you don't believe try falling on your head without a helmet, and then with one, it acts like a cushion, and your brain doesn't move as much. They actually make a bigger deal about football players getting concusions than they do about boxers or guys like Wladimir Klitschko would never fight again. Because everytime you get a concusion its easier to get another one, and they get progressively more dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins
Also its not the glove size, but how its made, sparring gloves actually cushion the blow, they have padding that absorbs a significant portion of the power that normally would land on someone. A pro glove is harder, and those there is less of a cushioning effect, and that does make a huge difference, there is a reason why it doesn't effect you as much, and that does mean less brain injury.
The point about the helmuts/headgear Im making is that a boxer has more mass of the head to connect with.Even a clipping shot,regardless of gloves sends shockwaves through the cranium.Not visually devisating but what happens inside the head can not be seen.Honestly,It would be interesting to hear from some of our Boxing members.I have never been in the ring and the best testament I can give to being concussed are squabbles on the pavement....when I was out numbered of course:-X. Look,we as fans understand what we are seeing,Boxing is a beutiful sport of offence AND defense.Sadly tragedyhappen and it is incumbent on us,as well as everyone involved ,tominamize those risks.We should speak openly of it and this thread needs to be spoken on.Nice to address it but I'd be a hypocrite to berate and single out boxing as a lone culprit.I in a very small way,'except' the dangers and after effects....but that pales and is utterly insignifcant towhat fighters face everytime they climb through the ropes.
All sports are inherently dangerous,some moreso then others,but singeling out boxing is foolish.
There are people who jump out of perfectly operational planes with some silk strapped to their back for fun for the love of god. The whole point of skydiving as far as I can see,is to succesfully avoid plummeting to your death. The whole point of swimming is to not drown. The whole point of football for most of the team,is to rip someones head off.
Just saying its just boxing is foolish,since the abolition of the 15 round fight,fewer and fewer boxers are showing signs of repetitive concussion syndrome,and boxers are less prone to other debilitating injuries that are common place in other sports,like Paralysis, hamstring ruptures,when was the last time you heard about a boxer undergoing Tommy John surgery,because I guarantee you at least one pitcher this year is going to lose his career because of that injury. Crucial ligimate damage is going to happen.
Any time your an athlete,a debilitating injury is a possibility.
Its par for the course youve chosen in life,you knew the risk and continued upon your course.
Now if you want to say there is more those of us in the sport could do to protect the boxers,both during their career,and after their career,your speaking my language. But to highlight boxing specifically as a source of traumatic injuries is BS,most sports entail traumatic injuries. You have a choice of whether or not you wish to participate in an athletic activity
Well said...anyone doubting that there are intentions to injure other players....I suggest the book "They Call Me Assassin" By Otis Sistrunk...Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyYou mean a free safety isnt trying to injure his opponent?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
The stastics do support that. Boxing is INHERENTLY more dangerous than any other sport because when it is done PROPERLY, someone is injured. Like I said before, the PURPOSE of boxing is to hurt you opponent, and you can't say that about any other non-fight sport.
You also named 2 names, one being a football player and the other a pro wrestler. I'll tell you what, you name as many people brain damaged from EVERY other sport and I'll name everyone brain damaged from boxing, and we'll see who comes up with more names.
You say cycling is more dangerous because it has a larger quantity of injuries, but contrast that to how many people cycle and how many people box.
It would come as a hell of a surprise to every single coach in the NFL. One of the first things they teach offensive lineman is to chop block,thats where you throw your weight right in to the other guys knees. In baseball when they teach you to pitch,they teach you to throw at a guy,you mean a hard spherical object thrown at someones head,isnt intent to injure?
Read up about Ben Davidson....Then deny there is no intentions to injure their opposing players
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Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
I figured I'd have to defend my position, I just didn't know it would be this easy. I figured someone would at least put some thought into a reply, so let me break it down slowly so that you can understand.
YES, a hockey check exerts more pressure than a punch. But where is the pressure exerted? TO THE HOCKEY PLAYER'S BODY. Its mostly shoulder to shoulder/chest impact. On the odd occaision where a shoulder catches a chin, the results are disasterous, YES. But the majority of checks are body to body, therefore THE BODY obsorbs the majority of the blow.
Think about it: Earnie Shavers punches me in the arm, and Oscar de la Hoya punches you in the head. Obviously Earnie's punch will exert much more pressure, but my body is obsorbing the blow, whereas your head is obsorbing Oscar's blow. I took a harder blow, but you're going to be the one spelling his name with an "894" for the rest of his life. Understand?
And where did I mention EVERYTHING is about the KO? Re-read my post. I didn't. I said a KO equals a concussion, which by definition equals damage to your brain. I did not say that was the only way to damage your brain. I am well aware that subconcussive blows are also incredibly damaging. I have no idea why you brought this up, because it only adds to my arguement.
Yeah it is SO EASY FOR YOU TO DEFEND YOUR POSITION....That the test were based on trauma to the head ONLY!!!!
WTF would I be talking about the mass blows to the body...We were talking about head trauma
Its ignorant to not single out boxing and mma and all combat sports, NOT CONTACT sports which are also very bad, but not to the same degree.
Sure there have been guys in football who have had to quit because of concussions, but they make you quit those sports for safety purposes far before they do in boxing, because the fact of the matter is most boxers have had concussions before, unless they have never been knocked out or hurt badly.
Don't even try to compare football to boxing, how many times a game is there a solid hit that hits someone squarely in the head? How many times do you see in a game, a guy walking around without their balance? Not often at all. Football does have its hits, and I agree that the impact is greater in football, but its not focused to the head.
Quarterbacks and receivers are the ones who are usually more susceptible to head shots, and thats because they are focusing on doing something else usually when they get hit, but one hit doesn't compare to the accumulation of punishment your brain takes over a tough fight. The brain is like porridge, and one hit sometimes does more damage, but usually it doesn't. Most tackles in football are not clean hits where you can level the guy, and usually, if you know how to tackle, you aim low so you can take out of the legs. Only on the rare occasion you get to the quarterback, or line of up a receiver going across the middle will you lay them out. Because if you try to tackle a solid running back up top, you are going to get knocked on your ass. Football isn't about killing the other person its a game, thus about winning, you don't need to "kill" the other team to win.
In boxing that is the whole point, you are suppose to beat up your opponent, and I have no problem with the sport or the people that do it, its my favorite sport, I am just saying its also the most dangerous sport(in North America at least).
This is why I think people are dumbasses for calling Mayweather a pussy for how he fights, Roy Jones Jr, I think if you can fight as safely as possible all the credit to you, because for the people who haven't been in the ring, try fighting like they do, Try fighting defensively against a good fighter, an we will see how easy it is not only to not get hit, but to be defensively minded and still be an effective counter puncher, amid the oncoming punches. And getting hit solidly rattles your brain, its not easy to maintain your calm, and senses, usually in a real fight your adrenaline takes away the pain, but you get amped up from being hit, and its hard to stay calm and do what you've trained to do.
Agreed on all...Point i was making originally was the one that those who feel boxing/MMa is purely to inflict perm damage and not for a competitive sake is not the whole idea of the sport..of course there is the highest % in these sports you are being hit in the head on a regular basis but there is also a love of the competitionQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Also that the majority of the damage is done over time not from a few fights or KO's...
As for PBF and RJJ style some may have found it boring but IMO it was impressive...especially Jones in his prime...PBF would have been more appreciated if he had a James Toney type punch....
The whole Idea is to hit and not be hit
Ive been about a bit, anybody who thinks Boxing isnt Dangerous wants there Brains looking at. Doesnt matter if you have a great defense Whittaker, Pep, Jones. Its what happens learning it, most damage happens in the gym preparing, preperation for Fights. Plus I believe The rule of Day before weigthins doesnt Help. Ive discussed this with Top Nuerologists, this is there belief. I love the Sport, theres so much good comes from it, this is my 50th year in it and loved every minute of it. But Im aware of the Dangers and protect to the best of my knowledge my Fighters. Teath makes some very good points, Unfortunatly they are true.
Ben Davidson. God I really liked him annd the rest of those guys. Otis was from the UNIVERSITY OF MARS!!!!!!!!!!!
Had a related discussion recently and regarding the no headgear - There was a university running a study at the Ringside Tournament regarding headgear and injury. They had boxers (over 18 yrs old) where headgear fitted with a monitoring device. I have to get the name of the university because I can't remember which one it was. The goal was to collect data for improving the protection of the boxers. I personally am ok with the headgear, but I really don't think it stops any trauma. I'm no doctor or scientist (sorry for stating the obvious), but I don't see how headgear really helps lesson the impact of a blow to the head. It's my understanding that the injurious effect of a blow is the brain jogging against the skull inside of the protective fluid that surrounds the brain after sudden movement. When the head is hit and moved violently in different directions, the skull may change directions faster and independent of the brain (because the brain is floating in the fluid). Think of a person in a falling elevator. If the elevator stops or changes direction quickly, what happens to the people inside? Would they be less injured if the elevator was wrapped in a 10 foot-thick layer of rubber? I don't think so.
I found this study that supports my two cents: Boxing Damages Brain Despite Headgear Protection - Demential pugilistica does not only occur in career boxers, as previously thought; it can also affect amateur boxers - Softpedia and this reference to it: Risking it in the ring - Los Angeles Times. I also found another that said headgear lessons the impact, but it was done in conjunction with USAB, so what else would you expect. It's funny that every study or opinion that says there isn't significant injury comes from a person or group affiliated with boxing with the exception of the BMA that produced this Amateur boxing and risk of chronic traumatic brain injury: systematic review of observational studies -- Loosemore et al., 10.1136/bmj.39342.690220.55 -- BMJ which concluded that there is no strong evidence to associate chronic traumatic brain injury with amateur boxing.
There's no doubt we are involved in a very dangerous sport, but so is football, soccer and cheerleading. I for one am all for any improvement made in the rules to help protect boxers. Unfortunately and fortunately for some - most of that responsibility falls on the coaches. To me nothing is more important than protecting boxers - mine and others.
I did find it interesting though how other sports compare, but boxing is at the top of the list per 1,000 Naysi Sport Scene: Sports Injuries Documented but it is the hardest sport ESPN.com: Page 2 - Sport Skills Difficulty Rankings
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Originally Posted by DC Amateur Boxing
Nice research, mate
Once again injuries in other sports or not done to the head, and the brain being one of the few parts in the body with no nerve endings doesn't feel anything, so a boxer is less likely to know they have brain trauma, then a basketball player knows they have a sprained ankle or bad knees.
As for the example of the rubber around the elevator, of course it would lesson the blow if you had the rubber around hte elevator, the potential energy convert into kinetic energy due to gravity as the elevator goes down, with the rubber around the outside a lot of that kinetic energy is absorbed into the elastic energy of the rubber.
Its like dropping an egg in a box onto a foam mat, or onto hard ground. When its dropped onto hard ground, there is nothing else that absorbs the blow, and the egg breaks, but when you drop on the foam, even though the egg is moving independently of the box, it is far less likely to break because of the absorbtion of the foam that neutralizes the normal force that is otherwise placed on the egg by the floor.
Another example is a car, the cars nowadays crumple more easily than cars back in the day, and wearing a helmet and using sparring gloves is like using a modern day car, the glove has extra padding which acts like rubber and absorbs part of the power, and the helmet isn't made of metal, it absorbs part of the blow, if this weren't so people would go down as often as they do in a pro fight, but they don't because the head trauma is lessened. You can argue that won't help them in the long run, but per punch its much less damage being done to the head.
There is also the nature of amateur boxing which is more like point sparring in that boxers only need to land cleanly on their opponent opposed to landing hard. Most boxers in the amateurs if not all boxers tend to not follow through as much in an amateur fight because they would rather get their hands back into defensive position to avoid being counter punched more so than in the pros. Also as soon as a fighter looks hurt in the amateurs usually a standing 8 count is called whereas in boxing they will allow you to get hit the point you go down or you can't defend yourself. This is the main argument why MMA is safer for you because, your either stopped or your in good enough shape to continue, only in boxing are you allowed to recover and keep going, its then that you do the most damage to your brain.
So basically the old rules of boxing would be better physically for the fighters?
Which rules? From what I've seen of Robinson fight, I am surprised he lived as long as he did, and he was known as one of the more defensive fighters in that era, but he virtually had no defense compared to what fighters have nowadays.
Before the Queensberry Rules were adopted the Broughton or London Prize Rules were used they had different views on rounds. A round today is 3 minutes a round under the old rules it was whenever someone was knocked down...they had 30 seconds to rest and 8 seconds to "come to scratch"....scratch being the chalk line in the middle of the ring much like the walk forward command today's refs give to a fighter who has just been knocked down.
:boxing: :stars: :drool:
This thread is
doing my head in
:thinking2: