well he will be bumped after hatton takes him down.Quote:
Originally Posted by asero
thanks for the explanation
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well he will be bumped after hatton takes him down.Quote:
Originally Posted by asero
thanks for the explanation
what for?:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel
Why should I be banned...so people can be banned for stating their opinions dont you agree that Calzaghe should be higher up then pacquiao?
No, I don't think Joe should be higher than Pac. Why do you have to mention Manny Pacquiao in every thread? Tons of fighters to choose from on that list and low and behold here comes Moono the twat to pick out Pac and say he does not deserve to be there.............what a pissing surprise that is. Your posts are getting so tiresome, stop trying to play it off as "it's my opinion, everyone is entitled to an opinion" and grow up you silly twat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonowhat for?:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel
Why should I be banned...so people can be banned for stating their opinions dont you agree that Calzaghe should be higher up then pacquiao?
Again - Ihevent seen all the greats fight... My top 5 are RJJ, JCC, Joe Cal, Pac, Tyson - (not in any order)
haha i agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
1 suger ray robinson
2 sori tea time be bak
How come you rate Hopkins so high then?Quote:
Originally Posted by asero
a) What is different about his middleweight reign - compared with John (:-\) and Calzaghes?
and
b) What drama is there in a Hopkins fight? Many would say he is a very BORING fighter.
my question to you is...why cant joe cal cant KO bhop where in bhop KOed trinidad and delahoya...bhop was a natural 160 fight joe at a higher weight. bhop's reign in 160 is so long just to deny him a top 40 spot. at he is a measure for future generations of still being competitive p4p past the age of 40..he is timeless and his wins are sgnificant.
why only question on JC is why cant he KO jones and bhop..please answer me...he performed well in those two fights, but where is the drama?
hopkins may be boring and dirty but his wins has huge historical implications. record breaking title defenses at one of the premiere division. he denied dela hoya and trinidad entry to the top 50. and defies age to continue to be top 5 p4p..forget foreman, bhop is the new standard
You made the list my friend. You rated Hopkins 30. That's why i'm asking you to justify his position. I agree he is a GREAT fighter BUT what is so special about his middleweight reign that elevates him so far above Calzaghe?Quote:
Originally Posted by asero
Your questions..
Hopkins ko'd Oscar and Trinidad because their best weight was Welter. He was naturally much bigger than them.
Hopkins fought Tarver at 175 before facing Calzaghe. Calzaghe moved up in weight to face Hopkins.
You are marking down Calzaghe for not being able to KO TWO GREAT fighters. That's a bit harsh isn't it? Especially considering Calzaghe is a veteran himself with a career history of hand problems, especially his left, which by his own admission is knackered. ;)
To be honest I think Joe could have taken out Jones if he wanted to, as for B-Hop although the fight was very close, Imo there was a chance Joe could have stopped him late if Hopkins didn't take his 5 min break. Still think Hopkins deserves to be rated high though, the mans a freak.
I would take points away from fighters that never fought outside there comfort zone ie PBF, RJJ. Thats where old school guys like Ali and Tyson score high for me because they fought all over the world, true World champions
Sorry but RJJ beat 4 HOF's Floyd Mayweather beat two top 10 P4P fighters, aswell as a load of other good names like RJJ did. I can't believe you say they never fought outside there comfort zone. When they moved up so many weightclasses. Then say someone like Mike Tyson fought outside his comfort zone, when he avoided more fighters in the 90s than i can count on my fingers and toes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
guys, how would you put lewis, holyfield, holmes, foreman and frazier in your top 100.. i may have overrated lewis and underrated foreman but im ok with that placing. foreman is not a top 50 guy for me...how would you rank these heavies?
no I know they both moved up and beat quality opponents but what I meant by never fought outside there comfort zone(probably the wrong phrase) is that they fought there whole carears in there own country, and I know people say RJJ was right to because of the olympics but for me a true great ie Ali fights and wins all over the worldQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBSorry but RJJ beat 4 HOF's Floyd Mayweather beat two top 10 P4P fighters, aswell as a load of other good names like RJJ did. I can't believe you say they never fought outside there comfort zone. When they moved up so many weightclasses. Then say someone like Mike Tyson fought outside his comfort zone, when he avoided more fighters in the 90s than i can count on my fingers and toes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
I'll give you that, the middleweight division has the history and glamour, but maybe it slightly flatters Hopkins too.Quote:
Originally Posted by asero
Apart from Hopkins being an American, fighting solely in America, is there much difference between his middleweight run and Sven Ottke's run at supermiddle (21 defences)?
Dare I say it but.. if Ottke was from the US i'm sure he would be hailed as an all-time GREAT too.. especially considering Hopkins being boring doesn't harm his standing?
Thoughts?
look at ottke KO ratio is there a HOF that he beaten...that alone proves the big disparity bet the two...hopkins is knocking out opponents in the division that is so rich. he denies dela hoya and trinidad top 50 greatness..
that is the same reasoning why PBF is being accused of ducking opponents. while cotto and margarito is knocking down contenders, PBF doesnt want to fight them. that is clearly not the case for joan guan accusing pacquiao of ducking him..guzman is good but he is not putting an emphatic ending in his fights. when was the last time guzman KO his opponents??
You seem to be putting a strong emphasis on the KO yet have plenty of non-punchers in your list.Quote:
Originally Posted by asero
Barring Oscar and Tito, who fought Hopkins above their optimum fighting weight, I don't see the great wins, or a huge number of KO's (admittedly his stoppage of Glen Johnson reads well). Not wins that necessarily standout above Sven Ottke's anyway.
Guzman hasn't carried his power up through the weights. But is another fighter with hand problems, which i guess is understandable considering he's fought over 300 amateur bouts.
I did this in one of my books, but anyone who posts a subjective list opens himself up for a savage beating. It is virtually impossible to get it right. If I rate SRR first, I'll get 20 who list Ali first. If I list Willie Pep second, I'll get 40 who say SSR should be second and so on. It's a death of a thousand cuts. If I rate Foreman infront of Holmes, I get brutalized and visa versa. :fighting0043gi5:
What's the book called?Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
And righfully so! :lickish:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWhat's the book called?Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
I sent you an private message on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMQuote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
And righfully so! :lickish:
Touche!
i had some minor revision..see the 1st post in this thread
Tough list to make for sure...I will give my top 25 but thats about it..
1. Ray Robinson
2. Willie Pep
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Joe Gans
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Archie Moore
9. Pernell Whitaker
10. Harry Greb
11. Sam Langford
12. Billy Conn
13. Joe Louis
14. Alexis Arguello
15. Salvadore Sanchez
16. Bernard Hopkins
17. Roy Jones
18. Ricardo Lopez
19. Stanley Ketchel
20. Sandy Saddler
21. Ray Leonard
22. Barney Ross
23. Kid Gavilan
24. Jack Johnson
25. Wilfredo Gomez
Keep in mind I base all my choices on prime condition of the fighters, I do not use world titles won etc as a part of my opinion (EG Guys like Langford would be punished because they were never given a shot at the titl;e due to color)...
Though maybe some spots might be off by 1 or 2 places either way It is pretty , much my complete list of the top 25
Why Hopkins above Jones?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
I'd have Hopkins above Jones too, its easy to just write off the end of Roy's career but I think Hopkins has passed him over their last ten or so fights.
That's not the reason I was gonna post, mainly I was just going to say something about Bert Sugar not really knowing what he talks about.
Nice list Daxx. Some minor quibbles, but nothing serious. Nice to see Arguello up there high on the list.
But seeing as how people are talking about Hopkins, I would tend to rate Hagler above Hopkins because Hagler's entire reign was as undisputed champion, was it not?
Longevity...In his 40s he is still a P4P #1 fighter...Also Hopkins has a better level of comp....Hard to even say when Hopkins prime is/was because he is still elite...Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWhy Hopkins above Jones?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Jones...Titles from 160,168,175, and HW best wins are over
Tate, Toney, Hill, Hopkins (A very new to the game Hopkins not the version he turned out to be).... (his bout with McCallum was a waay past his best McCallum)
Jones also ducked guys...Admittingly he ducked Calzaghe in his LHW reign stating he had too much to lose for him to travel and fight him
Hopkins best wins...
Glen Johnson (Ist to do so) Felix Trinidad, De La Hoya, Eastman (when Howard was worthy), Wright, Pavlik, Daniels,
Hopkins beat tha man to KO Jones 1st time out...He has never been Stopped and he has never been dominated in one sided fashion he has never lost a fight by more then 3rds on any scorecard....
11yr Middleweight champion, 4yrs as undisputed MW champion, former LHW ring champion
IMO Jones in his prime may have been the most gifted athlete in the game when he fought at 168 to this day I don't think P4P he could have been beaten by anyone in history but that time was short, Jones spent a lot of soft time at LHW...his last outing was embaressing.....KO'd back to back
I had to give Hopkins the nod easily for me...just my opp though
You have a point but Hopkins is also a 2 division champion no?...He also has wins over more ATG fighters....Plus the 11yr reign of Hopkins, 4 as Unsidputed champion.....Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
If we were going simply in the MW division I give it to Hagler..IMO he is the greatest MW of all time...Then Monzon then Hopkins...I had to go overall....
If not the case I would have to put SRR above Hagler because he beat him......
That is why I added to the bottom of the post I do not go by title reigns or length as champion...does it factor in a bit well yes of course it does but I have to go by opinion on ability at their best, the length of time their prime lasted etc...many factors go into the list beyone achievements...
If it was by title reigns alone like I also mentioned guys like Langford who were better then many would ever know never had the shot at the title because of color and the fact they were ducked...
Jack Dempsey admittingly stated he used the color barrier to not face Sam because he was scared to death of him in the ring
Do you mean Roy ducked Michalczewski? I don't think Roy ducked Calzaghe.
Now Daxx, don't get annoyed, all your points are perfectly reasonable BUT
Comparing their best wins - you have marked down Roy's win over Hopkins because he was "new to the game" ... yet you give Hopkins extra credit for being the first man to beat Johnson. This is a bit inconsistent.
McCallum was past his best. But then surely it's only fair to mention Oscar was fighting way above his natural weightclass.. this goes for Tito, Wright and Pavlik too.
Apart from that - Good point about Hopkins never being stopped or dominated. I don't agree he should rate above Roy, but there's no right or wrong with these lists just opinion - as you said. ;)
Just opinion Mate but the fact Roy declined to fight Calzaghe was HIS words not mine....It was before the Hopkins/Calzaghe fight and Roy said he wanted winner...When asked why he mnever went to fight Calzaghe all the years he was LHW champ and Calzaghe was calling his name he stated...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
"Truth,,,There was too much for me to lose at the time...I was not going to go in his country and risk my P4P title and fight in another country now its different he has what I want I don't have what he wants"
I swear on a book of bibles
As far as the other points (My point with Hopkins not being his best)....Bernard was new to the game period...Jones had a long amateur career, Olympic experience...Hopkins had only been at it a few years...The man had virtually no amateur experience...He learned the sport while in prison...Not exactly the best gym is it?
DLH, chased Hopkins,,,,Small MW yes but in truth he is actually bigger then Hagler..5'9 1/2" 75" reach...DLH is 5' 10 1/2"...Tito is 5'11" and walked around over the 160 mark and had been campaigning at MW was even a champion with 2 title defenses
Bhop held the WBC,WBA,IBF,WBO and the Ring all at once i believe. the only thing he did different from Hagler was become LH champ. I would personally rate Bhop above Hagler though.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
i think what roy said was "I was pound for pound champ and undisputed champ, why should I have to go fight him when I was the best", which makes sense. In every sport the champ, better, or favorite gets home field advantage. The calculated move by calzaghe to all of sudden come to the states to fight both roy and Bhop after they seemingly lost their grips on their respective divisions seems too convienent and also proves that he was willing to come to the states all along, whereas neither of them have left the country since becoming champs. calzaghe sat over there and waited for them to "look" beatable then came over...Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnJust opinion Mate but the fact Roy declined to fight Calzaghe was HIS words not mine....It was before the Hopkins/Calzaghe fight and Roy said he wanted winner...When asked why he mnever went to fight Calzaghe all the years he was LHW champ and Calzaghe was calling his name he stated...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
"Truth,,,There was too much for me to lose at the time...I was not going to go in his country and risk my P4P title and fight in another country now its different he has what I want I don't have what he wants"
I swear on a book of bibles
As far as the other points (My point with Hopkins not being his best)....Bernard was new to the game period...Jones had a long amateur career, Olympic experience...Hopkins had only been at it a few years...The man had virtually no amateur experience...He learned the sport while in prison...Not exactly the best gym is it?
DLH, chased Hopkins,,,,Small MW yes but in truth he is actually bigger then Hagler..5'9 1/2" 75" reach...DLH is 5' 10 1/2"...Tito is 5'11" and walked around over the 160 mark and had been campaigning at MW was even a champion with 2 title defenses
Yeah I know Bernard was undisputed MW champ, for about 1/3 of his reign.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfrnkBhop held the WBC,WBA,IBF,WBO and the Ring all at once i believe. the only thing he did different from Hagler was become LH champ. I would personally rate Bhop above Hagler though.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
tbh Calzaghe was just as stubborn as Jones for not wanting to leave his backyard, both of there carears could be so much better if they would have travelled, Jones could have gone to Germany to fight DM(a true champ would have wanted this scalp and gone for it), he could have come to Ireland to fight Collins, Brittian to fight Eubank ect... and imo he would have won them all, if he'd done this he would have picked up alot more fans and gotten alot more credit. The fact remains that RJJ, BHOP and Calzaghe could all have travelled and challenged themselves alot more, but they were all quite happy taking easier options in there own countrys...Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatheri think what roy said was "I was pound for pound champ and undisputed champ, why should I have to go fight him when I was the best", which makes sense. In every sport the champ, better, or favorite gets home field advantage. The calculated move by calzaghe to all of sudden come to the states to fight both roy and Bhop after they seemingly lost their grips on their respective divisions seems too convienent and also proves that he was willing to come to the states all along, whereas neither of them have left the country since becoming champs. calzaghe sat over there and waited for them to "look" beatable then came over...Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnJust opinion Mate but the fact Roy declined to fight Calzaghe was HIS words not mine....It was before the Hopkins/Calzaghe fight and Roy said he wanted winner...When asked why he mnever went to fight Calzaghe all the years he was LHW champ and Calzaghe was calling his name he stated...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
"Truth,,,There was too much for me to lose at the time...I was not going to go in his country and risk my P4P title and fight in another country now its different he has what I want I don't have what he wants"
I swear on a book of bibles
As far as the other points (My point with Hopkins not being his best)....Bernard was new to the game period...Jones had a long amateur career, Olympic experience...Hopkins had only been at it a few years...The man had virtually no amateur experience...He learned the sport while in prison...Not exactly the best gym is it?
DLH, chased Hopkins,,,,Small MW yes but in truth he is actually bigger then Hagler..5'9 1/2" 75" reach...DLH is 5' 10 1/2"...Tito is 5'11" and walked around over the 160 mark and had been campaigning at MW was even a champion with 2 title defenses
Ok then Daxx but why did you say in your original post that you went off Prime? Surely if you think at his prime no-one in history could have beaten him he should be no.1?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnLongevity...In his 40s he is still a P4P #1 fighter...Also Hopkins has a better level of comp....Hard to even say when Hopkins prime is/was because he is still elite...Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWhy Hopkins above Jones?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Jones...Titles from 160,168,175, and HW best wins are over
Tate, Toney, Hill, Hopkins (A very new to the game Hopkins not the version he turned out to be).... (his bout with McCallum was a waay past his best McCallum)
Jones also ducked guys...Admittingly he ducked Calzaghe in his LHW reign stating he had too much to lose for him to travel and fight him
Hopkins best wins...
Glen Johnson (Ist to do so) Felix Trinidad, De La Hoya, Eastman (when Howard was worthy), Wright, Pavlik, Daniels,
Hopkins beat tha man to KO Jones 1st time out...He has never been Stopped and he has never been dominated in one sided fashion he has never lost a fight by more then 3rds on any scorecard....
11yr Middleweight champion, 4yrs as undisputed MW champion, former LHW ring champion
IMO Jones in his prime may have been the most gifted athlete in the game when he fought at 168 to this day I don't think P4P he could have been beaten by anyone in history but that time was short, Jones spent a lot of soft time at LHW...his last outing was embaressing.....KO'd back to back
I had to give Hopkins the nod easily for me...just my opp though
To be honest had Roy retired after the Ruiz fight there really couldn't be much argument that he would be in most top 10 p4p lists. But for me he shouldn't have anything taken from him for what he lost in his later years (Ali doesn't) but he should be acknowledged for what he had in his prime!
Totally agree! I've always said the same thing about Tyson, if he retired after the Spinks fight. He would be in EVERBODIES top 10 Heavyweights of all time and in most peoples top 3. If you are talking about prime, you have to discount what comes after. People manage to do it with AliQuote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuTo be honest had Roy retired after the Ruiz fight there really couldn't be much argument that he would be in most top 10 p4p lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnLongevity...In his 40s he is still a P4P #1 fighter...Also Hopkins has a better level of comp....Hard to even say when Hopkins prime is/was because he is still elite...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Jones...Titles from 160,168,175, and HW best wins are over
Tate, Toney, Hill, Hopkins (A very new to the game Hopkins not the version he turned out to be).... (his bout with McCallum was a waay past his best McCallum)
Jones also ducked guys...Admittingly he ducked Calzaghe in his LHW reign stating he had too much to lose for him to travel and fight him
Hopkins best wins...
Glen Johnson (Ist to do so) Felix Trinidad, De La Hoya, Eastman (when Howard was worthy), Wright, Pavlik, Daniels,
Hopkins beat tha man to KO Jones 1st time out...He has never been Stopped and he has never been dominated in one sided fashion he has never lost a fight by more then 3rds on any scorecard....
11yr Middleweight champion, 4yrs as undisputed MW champion, former LHW ring champion
IMO Jones in his prime may have been the most gifted athlete in the game when he fought at 168 to this day I don't think P4P he could have been beaten by anyone in history but that time was short, Jones spent a lot of soft time at LHW...his last outing was embaressing.....KO'd back to back
I had to give Hopkins the nod easily for me...just my opp though
These all-time great lists are impossible.
When trying to justify one fighters great attributes over anothers, the Roy-Hopkins argument alone shows how it's impossible to avoid hypocritical inconsistencies. Even though Roy BEAT Hopkins, he is still not regarded a better fighter by many.
The problem with boxing, compared with other sports, is most fighters only meet ONCE. It's rare to have rematches let alone a number of fights to establish the dominant fighter (with older exceptions like Robinson-LaMotta). And because of this almost every match has an excuse attached to it.
Too old
Too young
Too small
Past his best
Weight drained
Robbed
Excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses. :rolleyes:
My favourite way of looking at it is to think who would win a fight between 2 fighters in their prime and discount longjecity, achivements etc. But as you say it rarely ever happens that 2 fighters meet in their primes. Morales and Barrera did and if ever there was an argument that 2 fighters were equal that is the one. I'm sure Joe Louis is considered 'Greater' than Riddick Bowe, but Bowe would've smoked his boots ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
He spent a very short time at 168.....IMO at 176 he was not the same fighter he was at 168...I think Jones got cocky and lost a bit of his edge..he fought less the par opp most of the time...So for me it is hard to judge how long his prime actually lasted...there are others on my list that fought and won in a prime state for longer periods of time so that is why they got the edge over himQuote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuOk then Daxx but why did you say in your original post that you went off Prime? Surely if you think at his prime no-one in history could have beaten him he should be no.1?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnLongevity...In his 40s he is still a P4P #1 fighter...Also Hopkins has a better level of comp....Hard to even say when Hopkins prime is/was because he is still elite...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Jones...Titles from 160,168,175, and HW best wins are over
Tate, Toney, Hill, Hopkins (A very new to the game Hopkins not the version he turned out to be).... (his bout with McCallum was a waay past his best McCallum)
Jones also ducked guys...Admittingly he ducked Calzaghe in his LHW reign stating he had too much to lose for him to travel and fight him
Hopkins best wins...
Glen Johnson (Ist to do so) Felix Trinidad, De La Hoya, Eastman (when Howard was worthy), Wright, Pavlik, Daniels,
Hopkins beat tha man to KO Jones 1st time out...He has never been Stopped and he has never been dominated in one sided fashion he has never lost a fight by more then 3rds on any scorecard....
11yr Middleweight champion, 4yrs as undisputed MW champion, former LHW ring champion
IMO Jones in his prime may have been the most gifted athlete in the game when he fought at 168 to this day I don't think P4P he could have been beaten by anyone in history but that time was short, Jones spent a lot of soft time at LHW...his last outing was embaressing.....KO'd back to back
I had to give Hopkins the nod easily for me...just my opp though
To be honest had Roy retired after the Ruiz fight there really couldn't be much argument that he would be in most top 10 p4p lists. But for me he shouldn't have anything taken from him for what he lost in his later years (Ali doesn't) but he should be acknowledged for what he had in his prime!
The problem is most fighters prime is debatable too.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HMy favourite way of looking at it is to think who would win a fight between 2 fighters in their prime and discount longjecity, achivements etc. But as you say it rarely ever happens that 2 fighters meet in their primes. Morales and Barrera did and if ever there was an argument that 2 fighters were equal that is the one. I'm sure Joe Louis is considered 'Greater' than Riddick Bowe, but Bowe would've smoked his boots ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster