Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
Quote:
Originally Posted by
match
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Originally Posted by
Lyle
Match, I understand Vietnam wasn't popular, I understand Ali along with plenty of people (not just blacks) didn't want to go, I understand the racism that was going on at that time which is why I am anti-Ali....he was supposed to be a Civil Rights figure, Jesse Jackson hung out with him, Bryant Gumbel praised him.....but that was at the expense of Joe Frazier the epitome of who was being hurt at that time in history, and to not see the injustice that was done to Joe Frazier shows a bias that is idiotic. Joe Frazier grew up in South Carolina and I will tell you honestly one person to another,
AT NO POINT IN HISTORY WOULD I WANT TO BE BLACK AND LIVE IN SOUTH CAROLINA. I would rather be in Alabama, Georgia, Texas, ANYWHERE other than South Carolina! He was poor, he got supported by a group of people that happened to be majority white (who hand the money at that point in time?) and because Ali berated Joe Frazier (a guy who helped Ali through the hard times of his being banned from boxing) Joe's kids got beat up in school just because they were Joe Frazier's kids.....how would that make you feel, being black, being shunned by people of your own race just because someone called you a name and apparently he had more credibility at the time, why I don't know.
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Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Frazier did call Ali Cassius and other stuff but that was only in response to the stuff Ali was coming out with. It was not Ali's finest hour.
I am always shocked to find when we agree on something.
As for Joe Frazier calling Ali 'Cassius'...is that better or worse than calling a black person a "gorrilla", "Uncle Tom", or just plain ignorant. It's not like Frazier rolled out with the Family who owned Ali's relatives or anything. Muhammed Ali changed his name when he joined one of the dumbest fucking groups in the entire world the "Nation of Islam" a group of people who think that all muslims are black and the KKK is correct on segregation, and that the blue eyed white devil causes all the evil in the world...I think calling Ali 'Cassius' in hindsight ought to be considered a compliment along the lines of saying something like "I know you aren't THAT dumb Ali".
Two things about this Lyle, first and foremost, Ali grew up in Louisville Kentucky, which as I'm sure you know falls below the Mason Dixie line. There was only one state in the deep south that was clearly worse than all others, and that was the state that lead the country in lynchings, Mississippi. To say Ali had it easier than Frazier would be as dumb as saying Frazier had it easier than Ali. They were two Black men growing up in the south. And most importantly, Ali's uncle tom attacks on Frazier were fueled by the fact that he was not an advocate on Civil Rights, similarly to how O.J. Simpson came under fire for not being an outspoken advocate on civil rights. This was WHY Ali berrated him. Joe Frazier represented the establishment, in that he was allowed a shot at a title that was stripped from Ali by the establishment. Ali's mistake was that he thought Frazier was an uncle tom because he refused to speak out, but in reality he was just a simple man who did not have the social conciousness that Ali did. This is WHY Ali attacked him.
Frazier was the son of poor share cropper who used to beat him: Ali grew up in a middle class neighborhood with a nice family. I dont think anyone who knows their stories would disagree that Ali had an easyier upbringing.
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
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Originally Posted by
Lance Uppercut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
match
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Originally Posted by
Lyle
Match, I understand Vietnam wasn't popular, I understand Ali along with plenty of people (not just blacks) didn't want to go, I understand the racism that was going on at that time which is why I am anti-Ali....he was supposed to be a Civil Rights figure, Jesse Jackson hung out with him, Bryant Gumbel praised him.....but that was at the expense of Joe Frazier the epitome of who was being hurt at that time in history, and to not see the injustice that was done to Joe Frazier shows a bias that is idiotic. Joe Frazier grew up in South Carolina and I will tell you honestly one person to another, AT NO POINT IN HISTORY WOULD I WANT TO BE BLACK AND LIVE IN SOUTH CAROLINA. I would rather be in Alabama, Georgia, Texas, ANYWHERE other than South Carolina! He was poor, he got supported by a group of people that happened to be majority white (who hand the money at that point in time?) and because Ali berated Joe Frazier (a guy who helped Ali through the hard times of his being banned from boxing) Joe's kids got beat up in school just because they were Joe Frazier's kids.....how would that make you feel, being black, being shunned by people of your own race just because someone called you a name and apparently he had more credibility at the time, why I don't know.
I am always shocked to find when we agree on something.
As for Joe Frazier calling Ali 'Cassius'...is that better or worse than calling a black person a "gorrilla", "Uncle Tom", or just plain ignorant. It's not like Frazier rolled out with the Family who owned Ali's relatives or anything. Muhammed Ali changed his name when he joined one of the dumbest fucking groups in the entire world the "Nation of Islam" a group of people who think that all muslims are black and the KKK is correct on segregation, and that the blue eyed white devil causes all the evil in the world...I think calling Ali 'Cassius' in hindsight ought to be considered a compliment along the lines of saying something like "I know you aren't THAT dumb Ali".
Two things about this Lyle, first and foremost, Ali grew up in Louisville Kentucky, which as I'm sure you know falls below the Mason Dixie line. There was only one state in the deep south that was clearly worse than all others, and that was the state that lead the country in lynchings, Mississippi. To say Ali had it easier than Frazier would be as dumb as saying Frazier had it easier than Ali. They were two Black men growing up in the south. And most importantly, Ali's uncle tom attacks on Frazier were fueled by the fact that he was not an advocate on Civil Rights, similarly to how O.J. Simpson came under fire for not being an outspoken advocate on civil rights. This was WHY Ali berrated him. Joe Frazier represented the establishment, in that he was allowed a shot at a title that was stripped from Ali by the establishment. Ali's mistake was that he thought Frazier was an uncle tom because he refused to speak out, but in reality he was just a simple man who did not have the social conciousness that Ali did. This is WHY Ali attacked him.
Frazier was the son of poor share cropper who used to beat him: Ali grew up in a middle class neighborhood with a nice family. I dont think anyone who knows their stories would disagree that Ali had an easyier upbringing.
Dude, why do you think I mentioned the 'Mason Dixie line?' Lyle and I aren't talking about family life, we're talking about being Black growing up in the South.
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
Quote:
Originally Posted by
match
Two things about this Lyle, first and foremost, Ali grew up in Louisville Kentucky, which as I'm sure you know falls below the Mason Dixie line. There was only one state in the deep south that was clearly worse than all others, and that was the state that lead the country in lynchings, Mississippi. To say Ali had it easier than Frazier would be as dumb as saying Frazier had it easier than Ali. They were two Black men growing up in the south. And most importantly, Ali's uncle tom attacks on Frazier were fueled by the fact that he was not an advocate on Civil Rights, similarly to how O.J. Simpson came under fire for not being an outspoken advocate on civil rights. This was WHY Ali berrated him. Joe Frazier represented the establishment, in that he was allowed a shot at a title that was stripped from Ali by the establishment. Ali's mistake was that he thought Frazier was an uncle tom because he refused to speak out, but in reality he was just a simple man who did not have the social conciousness that Ali did. This is WHY Ali attacked him.
#1 It's the Mason-Dixon line...."Dixie" is the nickname of the Southern States. I am aware of Kentucky being south of sed line and that point is moot when it comes to what Ali said about Frazier. And Lance is 100% correct about their comparative upbringings. Louisville as compared to Beaufort....come on, there is no decision to make, I would be in Louisville 10-10 times when given the choice between there and Beaufort.
#2 Just because Joe Frazier didn't speak out it doesn't mean he didn't support what Ali stood for. Michael Jordan and more recently Tiger Woods were very closely guarded in their political views. Those guys never got called 'Uncle Tom's' or 'House Negroes' or anything like that...they were always treated with respect. And that silence doesn't warrant or justify attacks by that nature. Had Joe Frazier suddenly decided to speak out like Ali (which would have been well outside his nature) would Ali have stopped his attacks???
I think it was hateful and hypocritical, what Ali and the people that supported him did to Joe Frazier.
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
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Originally Posted by
Lyle
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Originally Posted by
match
Two things about this Lyle, first and foremost, Ali grew up in Louisville Kentucky, which as I'm sure you know falls below the Mason Dixie line. There was only one state in the deep south that was clearly worse than all others, and that was the state that lead the country in lynchings, Mississippi. To say Ali had it easier than Frazier would be as dumb as saying Frazier had it easier than Ali. They were two Black men growing up in the south. And most importantly, Ali's uncle tom attacks on Frazier were fueled by the fact that he was not an advocate on Civil Rights, similarly to how O.J. Simpson came under fire for not being an outspoken advocate on civil rights. This was WHY Ali berrated him. Joe Frazier represented the establishment, in that he was allowed a shot at a title that was stripped from Ali by the establishment. Ali's mistake was that he thought Frazier was an uncle tom because he refused to speak out, but in reality he was just a simple man who did not have the social conciousness that Ali did. This is WHY Ali attacked him.
#1 It's the Mason-Dixon line...."Dixie" is the nickname of the Southern States. I am aware of Kentucky being south of sed line and that point is moot when it comes to what Ali said about Frazier. And Lance is 100% correct about their comparative upbringings. Louisville as compared to Beaufort....come on, there is no decision to make, I would be in Louisville 10-10 times when given the choice between there and Beaufort.
#2 Just because Joe Frazier didn't speak out it doesn't mean he didn't support what Ali stood for. Michael Jordan and more recently Tiger Woods were very closely guarded in their political views. Those guys never got called 'Uncle Tom's' or 'House Negroes' or anything like that...they were always treated with respect. And that silence doesn't warrant or justify attacks by that nature. Had Joe Frazier suddenly decided to speak out like Ali (which would have been well outside his nature) would Ali have stopped his attacks???
I think it was hateful and hypocritical, what Ali and the people that supported him did to Joe Frazier.
You just reinterated what I just stated. --"Just because Frazier didn't speak out it doesn't mean he didn't support what Ali stood for." This is what I just said. I said the MISTAKE Ali made was that he mistook his silence for lack of empathy, as did many people in the country. Look at it this way, Max Schmelling recieved thousands of letters of hate mail from Americans because they THOUGHT he was a Nazi. He wasn't, but if you were German and were seen walking side by side with Hitler, it was reasonable to assume you were a Nazi. It was wrong, but it was understandable why people would assume that. Likewise, if you were powerful and Black and did not speak out during the Civil Rights movement, it was understandable that people would mistake you for an Uncle Tom. It was wrong, but it was simply understandable. And you need to understand what many in this thread have already brought up, Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods do not live under Jim Crow laws. There is absolutely no political subject today that affects Black people as the Civil Rights movement did, and that's something you know Lyle.
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
Quote:
Originally Posted by
match
You just reinterated what I just stated. --"Just because Frazier didn't speak out it doesn't mean he didn't support what Ali stood for." This is what I just said. I said the MISTAKE Ali made was that he mistook his silence for lack of empathy, as did many people in the country. Look at it this way, Max Schmelling recieved thousands of letters of hate mail from Americans because they THOUGHT he was a Nazi. He wasn't, but if you were German and were seen walking side by side with Hitler, it was reasonable to assume you were a Nazi. It was wrong, but it was understandable why people would assume that. Likewise, if you were powerful and Black and did not speak out during the Civil Rights movement, it was understandable that people would mistake you for an Uncle Tom. It was wrong, but it was simply understandable. And you need to understand what many in this thread have already brought up, Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods do not live under Jim Crow laws. There is absolutely no political subject today that affects Black people as the Civil Rights movement did, and that's something you know Lyle.
OK, so I misinterpreted what you were saying...my bad. Ali used Frazier as propaganda when all Joe wanted to focus on is just fighting whoever was infront of him and then have his personal life at home where it was supposed to be.
As for Jordan and Woods, there was a feeling that those guys had to carry on what guys like Jim Brown did and be outspoken and take the Civil Rights movement to the next level. (That's the feeling I got anyway)....when Obama was running for President and everyone was hounding Tiger Woods for ANY opinion on it and he shied away from commenting on it, he caught hell for it. He did speak up after Barrack won but before then sports "journalists" like the fat slob Jason Whitlock were pressing Tiger to support Obama.
Sorry for the mix up...I just get a little fed up with people who treat Ali as if he did no wrong, IMO his rivalry with Frazier couldn't have been carried out in a more wrong manner.
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
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Originally Posted by
Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
match
You just reinterated what I just stated. --"Just because Frazier didn't speak out it doesn't mean he didn't support what Ali stood for." This is what I just said. I said the MISTAKE Ali made was that he mistook his silence for lack of empathy, as did many people in the country. Look at it this way, Max Schmelling recieved thousands of letters of hate mail from Americans because they THOUGHT he was a Nazi. He wasn't, but if you were German and were seen walking side by side with Hitler, it was reasonable to assume you were a Nazi. It was wrong, but it was understandable why people would assume that. Likewise, if you were powerful and Black and did not speak out during the Civil Rights movement, it was understandable that people would mistake you for an Uncle Tom. It was wrong, but it was simply understandable. And you need to understand what many in this thread have already brought up, Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods do not live under Jim Crow laws. There is absolutely no political subject today that affects Black people as the Civil Rights movement did, and that's something you know Lyle.
OK, so I misinterpreted what you were saying...my bad. Ali used Frazier as propaganda when all Joe wanted to focus on is just fighting whoever was infront of him and then have his personal life at home where it was supposed to be.
As for Jordan and Woods, there was a feeling that those guys had to carry on what guys like Jim Brown did and be outspoken and take the Civil Rights movement to the next level. (That's the feeling I got anyway)....when Obama was running for President and everyone was hounding Tiger Woods for ANY opinion on it and he shied away from commenting on it, he caught hell for it. He did speak up after Barrack won but before then sports "journalists" like the fat slob Jason Whitlock were pressing Tiger to support Obama.
Sorry for the mix up...I just get a little fed up with people who treat Ali as if he did no wrong, IMO his rivalry with Frazier couldn't have been carried out in a more wrong manner.
No problem man. As I said before, it's understandable why there are those who dislike Ali not only for how he treated Frazier, but for joining a hate filled organization such as the Nation of Islam. That whole ordeal was a stain on his legacy, I was just trying to say that it's not like Ali woke up one day and decided he was gonna ruin Joe Frazier and his children's lives. It was just a real pressure cooker of a decade as far as race relations.
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
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Originally Posted by
THE BOXING GOD
This just took away any respect I had left 4 clay,when I was younger and 1st started boxing I would watch the old tapes and he was my hero I would go 2 the gym and try 2 copy everything he did,I tried 2 be loud like him,everything,but over the years once I looked past the mystique and I've read prolly every clay book,including his auto biography,he was simply a racist,I read a book jose torres wrote about him where torres attended a speech clay was giving at a retarded nation of islam sermon and the things clay said about white people were disgusting. No excuse wat so ever 4 the things he said,the way he talked 2 joe and then the glory he received for it,the great martin luther king died 4 his dream that one day children of all colors would play together,and clay goes out and preaches that different colors should be segregated!!!!!!! I use 2 dream of meeting clay(doesn't deserved 2 be called ali) and shaking his hand and taking a picture with him,but if I seen him now I wouldn't even shake his hand,imo opinion as a fighter,he was one of the greatest ever,but as a person he was a disgrace
first off, arent' you a hypocrite, you rant on about Ali being a racist and yet you go on to disrespect the muslim religion, just cause you don't agree with it you don't have to go and insult the religion, and before you try and go after me, no i'm not muslim, and he had plenty of reason for saying the things he would about race, hell when you see your people getting sprayed down with high powered water hoses, have attack dogs set loose on you, beaten down with sticks, and even murdered on the streets, by the way that was just what the police would be doing, not counting acts by the KKK, you'd tend to be a bit bitter and make your feelings be known, and let your people know you shouldn't have to still be taking it, especially after the whole bullshit of the draft, who the fuck has the right to try and obligate you to do something like join the military if you do not share the same views as them, hell that even takes away a bit from the people who willingly fought or died for their country, cause they actually died for what they believed in, not an ideal that was forced upon them, Ali did take the taunts and all the things he said to Joe way too far, and it seriously effected him, but he's gone out of his way various times to make ammends with Frazier, you can't say that Ali is a disgrace in anything aside from maybe being a husband, he's done humanitarian work even while beaten down by Parkinsons disease. It's easy to judge, but nothing to do with his boxing career, i'd like to see you do half of what he's done for people's rights
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
Dammit, that was supposed to be neg reps for BOXING GOD, I agree with everything ElTerrible says.
If he doesn't want to be called Clay, don't call him that. You obviously lack any understanding of the state of race relations at that time to make the comments you do. Also sometime in the late 70s, Ali renounced his previous views and if he hated white people so much, why was it some of his closest friends were white. Ignore the rhetoric of the Nation at that time, and look at what he actually says now.
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
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Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Dammit, that was supposed to be neg reps for BOXING GOD, I agree with everything ElTerrible says.
If he doesn't want to be called Clay, don't call him that. You obviously lack any understanding of the state of race relations at that time to make the comments you do. Also sometime in the late 70s, Ali renounced his previous views and if he hated white people so much, why was it some of his closest friends were white. Ignore the rhetoric of the Nation at that time, and look at what he actually says now.
hell it was even shown that Don King insulted Dundee and Ali defended Dundee (and no i don't only mean in the movie)
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
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Originally Posted by
THE BOXING GOD
The things he said he said about ALL white people,and martin luther king went threw ALL the same things and he didn't stoop 2 the level off calling white people devils! No1 ever tried 2 assassinate clay because the white people realized he was setting his race back not bringin them forward as martin luther king did,you are all entitled 2 ur opinion and I gave mine,and I'm not gonna get on religion because we would be on here all night,I am a christian and I believe jesus christ is the ONE AND ONLY SAVIOUR so all religions that teach otherwise are pure evil,now that I've said that,I don't call chad johnson chad ocho cinco so therefore I will not call cassius clay muhammed ali,and he was the hypocrite for saying all white people are devils and that white and black people should be segregated and then surrounding himself with white men like dundee and pachecho,and I said he was one of the greatest as a FIGHTER,which there is no denying,thank you for your opinions I found them very interesting
You are so religious yet it seems like you never read the bible.
Jesus said "don't praise me, praise he who sent me" And Abraham said the same thing as did Muhammad.
The constant in most of these religions is there was a messenger and there was a god. And no matter what the name was it was saying the same kind of thing. Who cares who the messenger was as long as you get the message?
So you going out and saying "jesus was the only savior and all other religions are bad!!"
each religion has a representation of those things by a different name or way about things. Thats like saying "Bob delivers my mail and any other mail man is evil if its not Bob!!!"
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THE BOXING GOD
The things he said he said about ALL white people,and martin luther king went threw ALL the same things and he didn't stoop 2 the level off calling white people devils! No1 ever tried 2 assassinate clay because the white people realized he was setting his race back not bringin them forward as martin luther king did,you are all entitled 2 ur opinion and I gave mine,and I'm not gonna get on religion because we would be on here all night,I am a christian and I believe jesus christ is the ONE AND ONLY SAVIOUR so all religions that teach otherwise are pure evil,now that I've said that,I don't call chad johnson chad ocho cinco so therefore I will not call cassius clay muhammed ali,and he was the hypocrite for saying all white people are devils and that white and black people should be segregated and then surrounding himself with white men like dundee and pachecho,and I said he was one of the greatest as a FIGHTER,which there is no denying,thank you for your opinions I found them very interesting
Someone neg rep this bigoted, ill-informed fool for me. Apparently members of my family are evil :rolleyes:
My views on you would be best saved for another forum.
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THE BOXING GOD
The things he said he said about ALL white people,and martin luther king went threw ALL the same things and he didn't stoop 2 the level off calling white people devils! No1 ever tried 2 assassinate clay because the white people realized he was setting his race back not bringin them forward as martin luther king did,you are all entitled 2 ur opinion and I gave mine,and I'm not gonna get on religion because we would be on here all night,I am a christian and I believe jesus christ is the ONE AND ONLY SAVIOUR so all religions that teach otherwise are pure evil,now that I've said that,I don't call chad johnson chad ocho cinco so therefore I will not call cassius clay muhammed ali,and he was the hypocrite for saying all white people are devils and that white and black people should be segregated and then surrounding himself with white men like dundee and pachecho,and I said he was one of the greatest as a FIGHTER,which there is no denying,thank you for your opinions I found them very interesting
Someone neg rep this bigoted, ill-informed fool for me. Apparently members of my family are evil :rolleyes:
My views on you would be best saved for another forum.
Ouch. It was a rather lame post.
I'm not a religious man but to condemn all none Christian faiths as evil is a little strong. The Boxing God, you have proven yourself a total bigot! Job well done. :rolleyes:
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THE BOXING GOD
The things he said he said about ALL white people,and martin luther king went threw ALL the same things and he didn't stoop 2 the level off calling white people devils! No1 ever tried 2 assassinate clay because the white people realized he was setting his race back not bringin them forward as martin luther king did,you are all entitled 2 ur opinion and I gave mine,and I'm not gonna get on religion because we would be on here all night,I am a christian and I believe jesus christ is the ONE AND ONLY SAVIOUR so all religions that teach otherwise are pure evil,now that I've said that,I don't call chad johnson chad ocho cinco so therefore I will not call cassius clay muhammed ali,and he was the hypocrite for saying all white people are devils and that white and black people should be segregated and then surrounding himself with white men like dundee and pachecho,and I said he was one of the greatest as a FIGHTER,which there is no denying,thank you for your opinions I found them very interesting
Comparing Ali and Luther King is like comparing apples and oranges, only two things they have in common is they are black, and were against what was happening to their people, Ali was a young 20 something, Muslim, who wasn't formally educated but was in no way dumb, quite the opposite, and Martin Luther King Jr was well into his 30's, he was a good 13 yrs older than Ali, you can't expect young man that age to be so calm and collected when there was so much injustice going on to his people, i'm assuming your American and well if you are that's just more proof that you're a complete hypocrite, first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.", why are you allowed to express your opinion (although completely idiotic) about Ali being the spawn of Satan? yet Ali wasn't allowed to display his disgust for what was happening on the streets and in the homes of his people, i'm not a religious man, i believe in God and that's good enough for me, i don't believe i have to go to a building built by other men to praise him or to give thanks to him, i don't believe that other men that aren't any better than me (since we are all created equally and in the image of god), should be presented as holy figures, such as the Pope, Cardinals, etc. but i don't insult others that believe in all that. I say good for them, and give them credit for being faithful to what they believe in. you said you're a Christian man and all that, well members of the KKK also portray themselves as god fearing Chrisitian men who don't see killing men whom they refer to as (sorry for the language and it's only for the sake of the post) Niggers, Spicks, Wetback, Sheeney's, Yellowskins, etc., now compare that to Ali and tell me which one you think is the evil one...
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
Sorry to bring up this topic but the thread isn't too old. For Ali,almost every documentary I've seen on the man has been positive and paints him in a positive light.
Now you have an documentary that tells the story in Frazier's eyes it's bias. So you're telling me that 99.99 percent of the documentaries on ALi isn't? Hell I thought I knew everything about Ali, but I ddin't know he participated as a speaker in KKK rallies.
And allso I thought it was sickening that Frazier's kids were harrassed and bullied because of what ALi said about their dad. Pretty disgusting that Frazier's kids had to go through bullshit like that.
Muhammad Ali reminds me a lot of Michael Jackson. People are just so enamored with the guy's talent that they can forgive whatever messed up things they did in their life. It's like they can't separate the man's character from his job. Just because you are good at doing something doesn't mean you are also an good person.
With friends like Ali who needs enemies?
Re: The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary
Great thread this alot of great discussions, although didn't understand all of it :-\
Just one thing i'd like to point out Larry Holmes. Would always beat Muhammad Ali case closed ;)
