What! People were saying Pacquiao is too small to fight at 147? Hell they were saying that he was too small for 140.
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What! People were saying Pacquiao is too small to fight at 147? Hell they were saying that he was too small for 140.
or maybe jumping up to welterweight is too big of a jump and Roach knows it. maybe he should stick with fighting the junior welterweight and lightweight fighters like Floyd, but do it at 140 and 135.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
than if he wants a catch weight he should drop all this 7 weight class champion bullshitQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
Response is numberedQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherits the same thing...(1) Floyd isnt naturally 147 either, he moved up and beat the lineal champs at 147..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI'm not a Pac man groupie, but to say that he is cherry picking like Mayweather is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Manny is stepping up in weight to fight bigger men. Mayweather makes smaller men step up in weight to fight him and not fighting any of the men who are natural at that weight. That's the difference. Case in point, Manny fought his first fight at 140 against the champion of the division, Hatton, who Mayweather fought at 147.
Manny is choosing who he fights, but that is boxing. And, look at his potential options: Cotto, Mosley, or Mayweather. Most boxing fans have wanted Floyd to fight Cotto or Mosley for at least two years, if not longer. Before the Hatton fight, after the Hatton fight pre-retirement, and before the un-retirement.
What is ridiculous is that Manny may actually fight Cotto before Mayweather does.
(2) ricky hatton moved up to challenge floyd for his p4p belt which is what all the smaller fighters are really fighting over, and since floyd is pound for pound the best in the sport anyone that wants to fight him should go to 147...this is like floyd challenging pavlik for the belt then demanding that he meet him at 155...
PACMAN fought oscar who was at 154 at WW...if (3) he can fight a LMW then he can fight WWs its that simple..other than that ,the catch weight crap is just the same as roy jones demanding 100million to fight lennox lewis...just another way to get out of the fight...
and if cotto drops to 140 to fight PACMAN then it will be because arum and cottos people talked him into accepting the high risk/ high reward fight..besides cotto isn as old as PBF or SHANE..esp shane who hasn't been that small in over 10years...cotto might be able to handle the weight loss better than the older two fighters..which is probably why roach demands that cotto drops the most weight out of the three...(4) its the same as pricing yourself out....floyd might consider the catchweight because he's arrongant enough to do it..but shane and cotto would only be doing it for the mega bucks...
Shane isn't making 142, at least not a healthy Shane. Then again, fighting true elite welterweights may be too much of a challenge for Pacquiao. We are talking about a guy who started fighting at 108. Maybe he should stick to fighting junior welterweights and lightweights. There are undoubtedly some good fights in those weight classes. I don't necessarily disagree with that. One thing I agree with is that fighting Shane at 142 is not winning a title in a 7th weight class. No way.
- Floyd isn't a natural 147? Why then has he fought at or above 145 since 2005? And why has he required all his most recent fights against smaller opponents to be at that weight? If he was as effective at 140, why wouldn't he fight at that weight? And just to keep it in perspective, the lineal champion you refer to was big, bad...Carlos Baldomir. ;) He hasn't fought one other champion at 147. Don't kid yourself - not one!
- You make the point for why Hatton or another smaller fighter would want to move up to fight Floyd, and you are right. But, you don't respond to why Floyd would want to fight them when he has a deep crop of top tier welterweights to fight. He is a welterweight - they are junior welterweights and lightweights. (Not that it is a great point anyway, but Pacquiao went to Hatton's natural weight to fight him when he was p4p #1)
- Pacquiao fought ODLH at 147 because he is too small to fight a natural lmw. He is 5'6! The weight was an attempt at evening the playing field because he couldn't beat a natural light middleweight. But if you are going to make that argument, it must apply to Floyd too, right? If he fought ODLH at 154, he can fight lmw's. Instead, Floyd, supposedly the p4p best in the world, has fight junior welterweights and lightweights.
- There are two ways to look at it and your way - that using your leverage as p4p #1 to make heavier boxers come to you is pricing yourself out - is one way. I don't disagree. The other way to look at it is that Pacquiao wants to fight Shane and Cotto, but they are too big for him at 147 and that fighting at 142 evens the playing field. One thing that is certain is that Marquez fighting Floyd at 147 is NOT an even playing field.
Floyd is getting the criticism because there are a ton of elite, tough welterweights out there and he chose to fight Marquez, whose last fight was at 135, and has made a career at 130 and below. Floyd has five fights where he could fight boxers who won't be smaller and won't be weight drained. And on that note, other than Oscar, when has Floyd fought a bigger fighter?Quote:
Originally Posted by blegitYou're right the fighters should not accept the fight at these weights. But call it what it is though. This is a tactful way of not fighting someone unless you can almost guarantee they are ineffective. I won't fight this fighter unless they come down to a weight they haven't seen in many years. And that was in their youth. This is worse than pricing yourself out of a fight. PBF is getting all kinds of criticism for fighting JMM at a catchweight. And thats a real catchweight. JMM will be the smaller fighter but neither will be drained. I do agree with Roach that JMM's power has seemed to step up with his weight developing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxerAs I've said, if the boxers agree to fight in a "weight-drained weight" then it's their sole responsibility to perform at that agreed "weight"... I think most of them agree to that "weight" and at the same time believed they can win the fight at that "weight"...Quote:
Originally Posted by blegit
Some maybe are forced to agree to a certain "weight" but still accepted the fight because of other factors like money, moolah, dinero, fame, glory, legacy, etc.
If they (or their fans??) are really not comfortable of that certain "weight" then they should not accept the fight... Simple as that...
.
It is more that from a fan's perspective, I want to see Floyd challenged. I'm bored seeing him fight smaller men so he can showcase his skills.
You're making it seem like Floyd is a monster puncher who keeps KO'ing smaller guys.. Floyd has fought PLENTY of guys his size throughout his career, and several guys that are bigger.. besides DLH.. Diego Corrales was undefeated and had tons of power at 135 and floyd took him out..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratFloyd is getting the criticism because there are a ton of elite, tough welterweights out there and he chose to fight Marquez, whose last fight was at 135, and has made a career at 130 and below. Floyd has five fights where he could fight boxers who won't be smaller and won't be weight drained. And on that note, other than Oscar, when has Floyd fought a bigger fighter?Quote:
Originally Posted by blegitYou're right the fighters should not accept the fight at these weights. But call it what it is though. This is a tactful way of not fighting someone unless you can almost guarantee they are ineffective. I won't fight this fighter unless they come down to a weight they haven't seen in many years. And that was in their youth. This is worse than pricing yourself out of a fight. PBF is getting all kinds of criticism for fighting JMM at a catchweight. And thats a real catchweight. JMM will be the smaller fighter but neither will be drained. I do agree with Roach that JMM's power has seemed to step up with his weight developing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxer
It is more that from a fan's perspective, I want to see Floyd challenged. I'm bored seeing him fight smaller men so he can showcase his skills.
i will agree that there are "bigger" guys to fight at WW, but if he lost to a margarito or a clottey or a paul williams couldn't you play devils advocate and say that they beat a guy who moved up in weight and only fought "smaller" guys at 147 while he was in the weight class?
bigger and smaller are relative terms..
as far as manny saying he'd fight shane at 142 and not 147, does that mean he wouldn't fight floyd at 147 either? Interesting concept..
It comes down to is roach worried that 147 is too high for manny? or does he just not want moseley at his best weight.. if you asked him, i'm sure he would say that it's too high a weight for manny but we all know that it's really because he wants moseley to be drained.
Roach must really lack faith in Manny if he feels the other guy has to be a walking corpse before he lets Manny share the ring with them
Shane was boxing at 154 several years ago and now aged 38 he wants him to boil down to 142? We saw with Oscar he had nothing to offer even b4 the first punch had been thrown . Shane isnt that stupid to give away those kind of advantages. If it was a 147 like a normal welterweight fight Shane would KO pac easily. Roac must feel he is above boxing rules and cant dicate whatever he wants.
First, take into consideration that I give Floyd total credit as a boxer. He isn't my favorite boxer, but I am by no means a hater. But even if I were a Floyd fan boy, he hasn't had a career defining win in five years. Think about it, what were Floyd's biggest wins? I'd go as far as to say that he hasn't had a career defining win since the second Castillo fight. Not that he didn't remain undefeated and didn't dominate good boxers, but he hasn't had a career defining win in quite a while. My memory may be fading me here, but on average, I think I'm right. Beating Hatton and Marquez won't do it for me either. But, what if he beat Paul Williams or Miguel Cotto or Shane Mosley? Or two of the three?Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33You're making it seem like Floyd is a monster puncher who keeps KO'ing smaller guys.. Floyd has fought PLENTY of guys his size throughout his career, and several guys that are bigger.. besides DLH.. Diego Corrales was undefeated and had tons of power at 135 and floyd took him out..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratFloyd is getting the criticism because there are a ton of elite, tough welterweights out there and he chose to fight Marquez, whose last fight was at 135, and has made a career at 130 and below. Floyd has five fights where he could fight boxers who won't be smaller and won't be weight drained. And on that note, other than Oscar, when has Floyd fought a bigger fighter?Quote:
Originally Posted by blegit
It is more that from a fan's perspective, I want to see Floyd challenged. I'm bored seeing him fight smaller men so he can showcase his skills.
i will agree that there are "bigger" guys to fight at WW, but if he lost to a margarito or a clottey or a paul williams couldn't you play devils advocate and say that they beat a guy who moved up in weight and only fought "smaller" guys at 147 while he was in the weight class?
bigger and smaller are relative terms..
as far as manny saying he'd fight shane at 142 and not 147, does that mean he wouldn't fight floyd at 147 either? Interesting concept..
It comes down to is roach worried that 147 is too high for manny? or does he just not want moseley at his best weight.. if you asked him, i'm sure he would say that it's too high a weight for manny but we all know that it's really because he wants moseley to be drained.
I've wanted to see him to test his skills against welterweights. Yet since he fought ODLH at 154 and appeared fine at that weight, he has fought blown up light weights and junior middle weights.
I'll try and respond to your post, point-by-point.
- Floyd is not a monster puncher, if anything in his arsenal is below par, it is his punching power.
- Who has Floyd fought that was bigger?
- Who has Floyd fought that at their natural weight was bigger?
- If he lost to Margarito or Williams, I would say Floyd wasn't a great at welterweight. That he picked on smaller guys. And also that Floyd has fought at 147 for the last two-three years so it isn't a situation of bigger guys picking on a little guy, Floyd has made a living for two years fighting in their weight class, so I wouldn't put down their victory.
- The thing is each of the people you mentioned have fought each other. Cotto has fought Mosley and Margarito, Mosley has fought Cotto and Margarito, Margarito same, Williams has fought Margarito. Meanwhile, the number one of that weight class hasn't fought one of them. If he is too small to fight welters, he shouldn't be fighting at welterweight against smaller fighters (Now, personally, I'd never bet against Floyd against any of those guys, but you posed the hypothetical).
- Bigger and Smaller are relative. Being a "natural" welterweight is relative. However, there is a case to be made that Margarito, Cotto, Mosely, and Clottey are all natural welterweights. Shane has fought around 147 for a long time. He has fought as high as 154 and as low as 135. He is a natural welterweight. Antonio Margarito has fought as high as 154 and as low as 135. He is a natural welterweight. Cotto has never fought above 147 - he is a natural welterweight. Paul Williams has fought as low as 147 and as high as 160 atlthough he may be a natural junior middleweight who can fight at 147. Floyd. Floyd has fought as high as 154 and as low as 130. He too may be a natural welterweight or maybe not...but, either way he fights at 147.
- 147 may be too high for Manny. Would you bet on Manny against Mosely or Mayweather at 147? I wouldn't. Would you bet on Manny against Mosely or Mayweather at 142? Maybe - I still wouldn't. But, maybe.
Cotto at 144. Is that a true catchweight?
Miguel Cotto Willing To Face Pacquiao at 144-Pounds - Boxing News
Let's assume Roach feels Manny isn't big enough to fight the big guys at 147. The question I have is rather than fight Mosely or Cotto at catchweights, would you prefer Manny fight Juan Diaz or Nate Campbell or other fighters at 135-140? Obviously, if Juan Manual Marquez wins, it is logical that he should be the next fight. But, that ain't happening.
Naw... Cotto is a great match up for Pacquiao. News about Cotto puts more pressure on Mosley to make a counter offer on a catch weight before Cotto becomes available. Otherwise a fight with Cotto pushes through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
thing is if Manny wants to play the gimmick that weight classes don't matter, and that he can beat the bigger man no matter the size difference, Roach needs to stop trying to get fighters to dehydrate down to fight Manny, he knows Cotto and Mosley would be too much at 147, and honestly Manny needs Mosley not the other way around, Mosley's legacy is set, Manny's is close, but if he want's to make the claim of beating the best, it should be by beating the best at their best, not when they're weight drained like DLH, or how he wants to take on Cotto or Mosley, if it's just 3 pounds, well Manny should be able to pack em on easyQuote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratResponse is numberedQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherits the same thing...(1) Floyd isnt naturally 147 either, he moved up and beat the lineal champs at 147..Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
(2) ricky hatton moved up to challenge floyd for his p4p belt which is what all the smaller fighters are really fighting over, and since floyd is pound for pound the best in the sport anyone that wants to fight him should go to 147...this is like floyd challenging pavlik for the belt then demanding that he meet him at 155...
PACMAN fought oscar who was at 154 at WW...if (3) he can fight a LMW then he can fight WWs its that simple..other than that ,the catch weight crap is just the same as roy jones demanding 100million to fight lennox lewis...just another way to get out of the fight...
and if cotto drops to 140 to fight PACMAN then it will be because arum and cottos people talked him into accepting the high risk/ high reward fight..besides cotto isn as old as PBF or SHANE..esp shane who hasn't been that small in over 10years...cotto might be able to handle the weight loss better than the older two fighters..which is probably why roach demands that cotto drops the most weight out of the three...(4) its the same as pricing yourself out....floyd might consider the catchweight because he's arrongant enough to do it..but shane and cotto would only be doing it for the mega bucks...
Shane isn't making 142, at least not a healthy Shane. Then again, fighting true elite welterweights may be too much of a challenge for Pacquiao. We are talking about a guy who started fighting at 108. Maybe he should stick to fighting junior welterweights and lightweights. There are undoubtedly some good fights in those weight classes. I don't necessarily disagree with that. One thing I agree with is that fighting Shane at 142 is not winning a title in a 7th weight class. No way.
- Floyd isn't a natural 147? Why then has he fought at or above 145 since 2005? And why has he required all his most recent fights against smaller opponents to be at that weight? If he was as effective at 140, why wouldn't he fight at that weight? And just to keep it in perspective, the lineal champion you refer to was big, bad...Carlos Baldomir. ;) He hasn't fought one other champion at 147. Don't kid yourself - not one!
- You make the point for why Hatton or another smaller fighter would want to move up to fight Floyd, and you are right. But, you don't respond to why Floyd would want to fight them when he has a deep crop of top tier welterweights to fight. He is a welterweight - they are junior welterweights and lightweights. (Not that it is a great point anyway, but Pacquiao went to Hatton's natural weight to fight him when he was p4p #1)
- Pacquiao fought ODLH at 147 because he is too small to fight a natural lmw. He is 5'6! The weight was an attempt at evening the playing field because he couldn't beat a natural light middleweight. But if you are going to make that argument, it must apply to Floyd too, right? If he fought ODLH at 154, he can fight lmw's. Instead, Floyd, supposedly the p4p best in the world, has fight junior welterweights and lightweights.
- There are two ways to look at it and your way - that using your leverage as p4p #1 to make heavier boxers come to you is pricing yourself out - is one way. I don't disagree. The other way to look at it is that Pacquiao wants to fight Shane and Cotto, but they are too big for him at 147 and that fighting at 142 evens the playing field. One thing that is certain is that Marquez fighting Floyd at 147 is NOT an even playing field.
dude those were some excellent points throughout, but the reason PBF would accept the smaller men challenging him for his WW and P4P titles are simple...Hatton was a huge draw with a huge fan base worldwide those greenbacks plus hatton was undefeated. I mean what guy wouldn't fight a smaller man knowing it would big a huge payday if the little guy doesn't have a problem..And marquez is the one who called out PBF, so if you want to fight him go to his weight. To me its like when roy wanted to fight lennox for huge money..it would have been clear as day that he really didn't want to fight had he demanded that Lennox come down to cruiser to face him then get credit for a win over a HW. People would have seen right through that so he instead demanded 100million. Same thing that pac is doing except 100million is silly so they say you come to this weight, and you to that weight...
The red highlight is for the point that if he can fight oscar at 147, why not shane or cotto? That doesn't make sense, only if and i think this is clear now, which is that roach knows that would make both of them ineffective enough to give manny the win. I still think shane would probably beat him at 142, but its not worth the 38 year old risk of looking that old on the wrong night. ;)
One thing we can agree upon is that Roach is obviously looking to minimize the great size disparity between Pacquiao and any of the potential opponents. But, to a certain extent, that is fair. They all have a big size advantage over Pacquiao and that would be the difference in the fights. A good big man beats a good little most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratResponse is numberedQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Shane isn't making 142, at least not a healthy Shane. Then again, fighting true elite welterweights may be too much of a challenge for Pacquiao. We are talking about a guy who started fighting at 108. Maybe he should stick to fighting junior welterweights and lightweights. There are undoubtedly some good fights in those weight classes. I don't necessarily disagree with that. One thing I agree with is that fighting Shane at 142 is not winning a title in a 7th weight class. No way.
- Floyd isn't a natural 147? Why then has he fought at or above 145 since 2005? And why has he required all his most recent fights against smaller opponents to be at that weight? If he was as effective at 140, why wouldn't he fight at that weight? And just to keep it in perspective, the lineal champion you refer to was big, bad...Carlos Baldomir. ;) He hasn't fought one other champion at 147. Don't kid yourself - not one!
- You make the point for why Hatton or another smaller fighter would want to move up to fight Floyd, and you are right. But, you don't respond to why Floyd would want to fight them when he has a deep crop of top tier welterweights to fight. He is a welterweight - they are junior welterweights and lightweights. (Not that it is a great point anyway, but Pacquiao went to Hatton's natural weight to fight him when he was p4p #1)
- Pacquiao fought ODLH at 147 because he is too small to fight a natural lmw. He is 5'6! The weight was an attempt at evening the playing field because he couldn't beat a natural light middleweight. But if you are going to make that argument, it must apply to Floyd too, right? If he fought ODLH at 154, he can fight lmw's. Instead, Floyd, supposedly the p4p best in the world, has fight junior welterweights and lightweights.
- There are two ways to look at it and your way - that using your leverage as p4p #1 to make heavier boxers come to you is pricing yourself out - is one way. I don't disagree. The other way to look at it is that Pacquiao wants to fight Shane and Cotto, but they are too big for him at 147 and that fighting at 142 evens the playing field. One thing that is certain is that Marquez fighting Floyd at 147 is NOT an even playing field.
dude those were some excellent points throughout, but the reason PBF would accept the smaller men challenging him for his WW and P4P titles are simple...Hatton was a huge draw with a huge fan base worldwide those greenbacks plus hatton was undefeated. I mean what guy wouldn't fight a smaller man knowing it would big a huge payday if the little guy doesn't have a problem..And marquez is the one who called out PBF, so if you want to fight him go to his weight. To me its like when roy wanted to fight lennox for huge money..it would have been clear as day that he really didn't want to fight had he demanded that Lennox come down to cruiser to face him then get credit for a win over a HW. People would have seen right through that so he instead demanded 100million. Same thing that pac is doing except 100million is silly so they say you come to this weight, and you to that weight...
The red highlight is for the point that if he can fight oscar at 147, why not shane or cotto? That doesn't make sense, only if and i think this is clear now, which is that roach knows that would make both of them ineffective enough to give manny the win. I still think shane would probably beat him at 142, but its not worth the 38 year old risk of looking that old on the wrong night. ;)
Why Oscar at 147, but not Mosely at 154? One reason may be that Roach wanted the Oscar fight badly because there wasn't another pay day in boxing as big as Oscar at the moment. Remember at the time, Floyd was retired. He knew 154 was much too big for Pacquiao and although 147 was too big for Pacquiao, he was willing to take the risk so that Pacquiao would get the pay day. Of course, it was a calculated risk, and he assumed correctly, that Oscar wouldn't be the same fighter at 147 that he was at 154. However, I don't think anyone could have predicted Oscar's performance, which is why almost everyone picked Oscar to beat Manny. In sum, Roach never liked 147 as a weight tehn and he doesn't like it now, but he was willing to take the risk in jump to get a pay day from Oscar.
It is somewhat logical if you think about it. Roach was willing to fight Hatton at 140 even though Hatton was the bigger man in that fight and at his natural weight. He didn't need Hatton to be weight drained to fight Pacquiao. But, after Oscar, Hatton was the next biggest pay day.
Out of all the fighters out there currently, who is the next biggest pay day? Logically, if Marquez beats Mayweather, that should be Manny's next fight. That ain't happening, however. In my opinion, there aren't any other junior welterweights or light weights who are as big as Cotto or Mosely or Mayweather. But, I don't think fighting them at 147 makes sense. Cotto is willing to fight Manny at 144 - Miguel Cotto Willing To Face Pacquiao at 144-Pounds - Boxing News.
I feel the same way, generally about mayweather from what you've described, except he's my fav fighter to watch.. but i will not give him any more credit than he deserves, so don't think im coming from there..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratFirst, take into consideration that I give Floyd total credit as a boxer. He isn't my favorite boxer, but I am by no means a hater. But even if I were a Floyd fan boy, he hasn't had a career defining win in five years. Think about it, what were Floyd's biggest wins? I'd go as far as to say that he hasn't had a career defining win since the second Castillo fight. Not that he didn't remain undefeated and didn't dominate good boxers, but he hasn't had a career defining win in quite a while. My memory may be fading me here, but on average, I think I'm right. Beating Hatton and Marquez won't do it for me either. But, what if he beat Paul Williams or Miguel Cotto or Shane Mosley? Or two of the three?Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33You're making it seem like Floyd is a monster puncher who keeps KO'ing smaller guys.. Floyd has fought PLENTY of guys his size throughout his career, and several guys that are bigger.. besides DLH.. Diego Corrales was undefeated and had tons of power at 135 and floyd took him out..Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
i will agree that there are "bigger" guys to fight at WW, but if he lost to a margarito or a clottey or a paul williams couldn't you play devils advocate and say that they beat a guy who moved up in weight and only fought "smaller" guys at 147 while he was in the weight class?
bigger and smaller are relative terms..
as far as manny saying he'd fight shane at 142 and not 147, does that mean he wouldn't fight floyd at 147 either? Interesting concept..
It comes down to is roach worried that 147 is too high for manny? or does he just not want moseley at his best weight.. if you asked him, i'm sure he would say that it's too high a weight for manny but we all know that it's really because he wants moseley to be drained.
I've wanted to see him to test his skills against welterweights. Yet since he fought ODLH at 154 and appeared fine at that weight, he has fought blown up light weights and junior middle weights.
I'll try and respond to your post, point-by-point.
- Floyd is not a monster puncher, if anything in his arsenal is below par, it is his punching power.
- Who has Floyd fought that was bigger?
- Who has Floyd fought that at their natural weight was bigger?
- If he lost to Margarito or Williams, I would say Floyd wasn't a great at welterweight. That he picked on smaller guys. And also that Floyd has fought at 147 for the last two-three years so it isn't a situation of bigger guys picking on a little guy, Floyd has made a living for two years fighting in their weight class, so I wouldn't put down their victory.
- The thing is each of the people you mentioned have fought each other. Cotto has fought Mosley and Margarito, Mosley has fought Cotto and Margarito, Margarito same, Williams has fought Margarito. Meanwhile, the number one of that weight class hasn't fought one of them. If he is too small to fight welters, he shouldn't be fighting at welterweight against smaller fighters (Now, personally, I'd never bet against Floyd against any of those guys, but you posed the hypothetical).
- Bigger and Smaller are relative. Being a "natural" welterweight is relative. However, there is a case to be made that Margarito, Cotto, Mosely, and Clottey are all natural welterweights. Shane has fought around 147 for a long time. He has fought as high as 154 and as low as 135. He is a natural welterweight. Antonio Margarito has fought as high as 154 and as low as 135. He is a natural welterweight. Cotto has never fought above 147 - he is a natural welterweight. Paul Williams has fought as low as 147 and as high as 160 atlthough he may be a natural junior middleweight who can fight at 147. Floyd. Floyd has fought as high as 154 and as low as 130. He too may be a natural welterweight or maybe not...but, either way he fights at 147.
- 147 may be too high for Manny. Would you bet on Manny against Mosely or Mayweather at 147? I wouldn't. Would you bet on Manny against Mosely or Mayweather at 142? Maybe - I still wouldn't. But, maybe.
as far as #1 in your post, you just reiterated what i said, so, not sure the point there..
#2 - #3.. corralles wasn't naturally bigger? DLH wasn't naturally bigger? It's not like he asked them to drain weight to fight them, so still not sure how you can discredit that.
#4.. a bit of a contradiction here.. you're putting down floyd for fighting smaller guys while he is at 147 (meaning he hasn't fought any true welterweights) but you wouldn't put down THEIR victory (meaning cotto/clottey/margarito) if they beat him? This was EXACTLY my point. If Floyd wasn't such a big mouth and constantly proclaimed himself as the best fighter then it would be REAL easy to say, "well floyd hasn't fought anyone his size, of course Clotty/Cotto/Margarito beat him.. big deal".. Except it would be a big deal because of his P4P status.. just like it would be a big deal if floyd beat JMM/Manny and that he beat Hatton..
I think we sometimes, as boxing fanatics, get too caught up in technicalities.. i'm not saying that weight classes should be overlooked completely, but Floyd could careless what his weight class is considered. He's fighting at or around 147, and he wants the biggest and best pay days from the most popular fighters.
#5.. again, i feel the weight class bit is trivial, but i do agree that TECHNICALLY speaking, if he is going to stay at 147, then he should fight true welterweights.. but with that said, the JMM fight is at a catch weight i believe, so that throws the whole "if he is going to consider himself a welterweight" nonsense out the window..
#6.. again, i agree with your assessments on the fighters you mentioned except floyd.. Floyd fought the majority of his career at 130, fought a few fights at 135, a few at 140, a few at 147 and for his fight at 154 he weighed in at 150.. remember that the weight classes are weight limits.. in a discussion such as this sort, where every pound counts, this makes a difference.
point of the matter is that just because floyd may have fought a fighter who came up in weight, that doesn't mean he is automatically the bigger man. DLH/Pacman was quite a weight difference, but mayweather was never involved in anything that drastic, it's just that his status as a "welterweight" seems to get in the way of the truth behind the technicalities of weight classes..
when discussing PBF it's more P4P status than weight classes.. ask a casual fan, meaning one of the millions of fans watching his fights, if they knew hatton came up in weight to fight floyd.. in fact, i can't think of a time watching a floyd fight where someone in the room said, "floyd is just too big for him".. he was just better.. he would do the same to cotto/moseley etc.. but those fights won't make as much money as other he has to choose from, which is why we probably won't see them.. i HOPE we do, but we probably won't.. Paul williams would be a stretch, i'd be the first to admit that.. but in the same respect, williams went up to 160 in weight and it would almost be a david/goliath matchup.
I would prefer to see Manny either move to 147 to fight welters at welter or stay at 140 and fight jwelters.imo Manny ain't a welter and Cotto/Mosley are just too big.
I would have also preferred to see Mayweather either drop to 140 to fight Marquez on a more level playing field.If Mayweather can't make 140,he should have fought Cotto/Mosley at 147.
The weight classes should mean something and these catch-weight fights are becoming a joke.
I'd prefer not to see anymore Pac/Oscar demolition jobs.Because a fighter takes a fight at a weight,that he can't make safely,just for a big payday.
I am a fan and I'd prefer not to bother seeing ' a vs. b' or 'x vs. y' if both fighters aren't at 100%. ie badly weight drained or fighting at too high a weight.
Maybe in legacy, but that is an argument for another day. In terms of pay day potential, Mosely needs Manny. Other than in his fight with Margarito, has Mosely ever sold a lot of tickets?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesthing is if Manny wants to play the gimmick that weight classes don't matter, and that he can beat the bigger man no matter the size difference, Roach needs to stop trying to get fighters to dehydrate down to fight Manny, he knows Cotto and Mosley would be too much at 147, and honestly Manny needs Mosley not the other way around, Mosley's legacy is set, Manny's is close, but if he want's to make the claim of beating the best, it should be by beating the best at their best, not when they're weight drained like DLH, or how he wants to take on Cotto or Mosley, if it's just 3 pounds, well Manny should be able to pack em on easyQuote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
He beat Hatton, the best at 140, at his weight, which is more than PBF can say who also claims he is the best.
I posted in an earlier topic that Floyd himself says there is no way he loses to Pacquiao or Marquez because they are too small. I don't have the link now, but it is searchable.Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33I feel the same way, generally about mayweather from what you've described, except he's my fav fighter to watch.. but i will not give him any more credit than he deserves, so don't think im coming from there..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratFirst, take into consideration that I give Floyd total credit as a boxer. He isn't my favorite boxer, but I am by no means a hater. But even if I were a Floyd fan boy, he hasn't had a career defining win in five years. Think about it, what were Floyd's biggest wins? I'd go as far as to say that he hasn't had a career defining win since the second Castillo fight. Not that he didn't remain undefeated and didn't dominate good boxers, but he hasn't had a career defining win in quite a while. My memory may be fading me here, but on average, I think I'm right. Beating Hatton and Marquez won't do it for me either. But, what if he beat Paul Williams or Miguel Cotto or Shane Mosley? Or two of the three?Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33
I've wanted to see him to test his skills against welterweights. Yet since he fought ODLH at 154 and appeared fine at that weight, he has fought blown up light weights and junior middle weights.
I'll try and respond to your post, point-by-point.
- Floyd is not a monster puncher, if anything in his arsenal is below par, it is his punching power.
- Who has Floyd fought that was bigger?
- Who has Floyd fought that at their natural weight was bigger?
- If he lost to Margarito or Williams, I would say Floyd wasn't a great at welterweight. That he picked on smaller guys. And also that Floyd has fought at 147 for the last two-three years so it isn't a situation of bigger guys picking on a little guy, Floyd has made a living for two years fighting in their weight class, so I wouldn't put down their victory.
- The thing is each of the people you mentioned have fought each other. Cotto has fought Mosley and Margarito, Mosley has fought Cotto and Margarito, Margarito same, Williams has fought Margarito. Meanwhile, the number one of that weight class hasn't fought one of them. If he is too small to fight welters, he shouldn't be fighting at welterweight against smaller fighters (Now, personally, I'd never bet against Floyd against any of those guys, but you posed the hypothetical).
- Bigger and Smaller are relative. Being a "natural" welterweight is relative. However, there is a case to be made that Margarito, Cotto, Mosely, and Clottey are all natural welterweights. Shane has fought around 147 for a long time. He has fought as high as 154 and as low as 135. He is a natural welterweight. Antonio Margarito has fought as high as 154 and as low as 135. He is a natural welterweight. Cotto has never fought above 147 - he is a natural welterweight. Paul Williams has fought as low as 147 and as high as 160 atlthough he may be a natural junior middleweight who can fight at 147. Floyd. Floyd has fought as high as 154 and as low as 130. He too may be a natural welterweight or maybe not...but, either way he fights at 147.
- 147 may be too high for Manny. Would you bet on Manny against Mosely or Mayweather at 147? I wouldn't. Would you bet on Manny against Mosely or Mayweather at 142? Maybe - I still wouldn't. But, maybe.
as far as #1 in your post, you just reiterated what i said, so, not sure the point there..
#2 - #3.. corralles wasn't naturally bigger? DLH wasn't naturally bigger? It's not like he asked them to drain weight to fight them, so still not sure how you can discredit that.
#4.. a bit of a contradiction here.. you're putting down floyd for fighting smaller guys while he is at 147 (meaning he hasn't fought any true welterweights) but you wouldn't put down THEIR victory (meaning cotto/clottey/margarito) if they beat him? This was EXACTLY my point. If Floyd wasn't such a big mouth and constantly proclaimed himself as the best fighter then it would be REAL easy to say, "well floyd hasn't fought anyone his size, of course Clotty/Cotto/Margarito beat him.. big deal".. Except it would be a big deal because of his P4P status.. just like it would be a big deal if floyd beat JMM/Manny and that he beat Hatton..
I think we sometimes, as boxing fanatics, get too caught up in technicalities.. i'm not saying that weight classes should be overlooked completely, but Floyd could careless what his weight class is considered. He's fighting at or around 147, and he wants the biggest and best pay days from the most popular fighters.
#5.. again, i feel the weight class bit is trivial, but i do agree that TECHNICALLY speaking, if he is going to stay at 147, then he should fight true welterweights.. but with that said, the JMM fight is at a catch weight i believe, so that throws the whole "if he is going to consider himself a welterweight" nonsense out the window..
#6.. again, i agree with your assessments on the fighters you mentioned except floyd.. Floyd fought the majority of his career at 130, fought a few fights at 135, a few at 140, a few at 147 and for his fight at 154 he weighed in at 150.. remember that the weight classes are weight limits.. in a discussion such as this sort, where every pound counts, this makes a difference.
point of the matter is that just because floyd may have fought a fighter who came up in weight, that doesn't mean he is automatically the bigger man. DLH/Pacman was quite a weight difference, but mayweather was never involved in anything that drastic, it's just that his status as a "welterweight" seems to get in the way of the truth behind the technicalities of weight classes..
when discussing PBF it's more P4P status than weight classes.. ask a casual fan, meaning one of the millions of fans watching his fights, if they knew hatton came up in weight to fight floyd.. in fact, i can't think of a time watching a floyd fight where someone in the room said, "floyd is just too big for him".. he was just better.. he would do the same to cotto/moseley etc.. but those fights won't make as much money as other he has to choose from, which is why we probably won't see them.. i HOPE we do, but we probably won't.. Paul williams would be a stretch, i'd be the first to admit that.. but in the same respect, williams went up to 160 in weight and it would almost be a david/goliath matchup.
My response in # 4 wasn't as clear as it should have been. Floyd has fought at 147 for two years and was the lineal champ at 147. So if Margarito or Cotto or Williams beat him, there wouldn't be the same sort of argument that they beat a smaller guy.
I agree with your statement to #5, but I'd add that even if the weight classes are trivial, at or around his natural fighting weight, whether it be 140 or 147 or 145, Floyd hasn't fought any of the elite, bigger boxers.
I understand the money argument. It makes sense before he retired. But, will a fight with Marquez really generate more money than a fight with Cotto or Williams or Mosely? Maybe it would. But, not in the same way a fight with Pacquiao, ODLH, or Hatton would. If not significantly more, why not come back to one of the welters? And honestly, a fight with Shane would be huge.
I understand your statement that a Floyd discussion is a p4p discussion. But, one of the criteria in p4p discussion is the ability to move around in weight classes and beat everyone. Has Floyd really dominated the elite fighters since he moved to 140? The best part of Floyd's career, as you mentioned, was when he fought near 130. Floyd dominated there, but he was cleaning out divisions when he moved up. Not at 140 and not at 147. At least not yet.
I think the catchweight depends on one thing. Whoever wants the other fighter more has to make the weight gain or loss. Is it more important to Mosley for him to be the one to stop the Pacquiao train to add to his legacy? Is it important enough that he must take the risk of taxing his body as much as he has in years? Or is it more important to Pacquiao to add a 7th division title to his status? Important enough to go back to 147 (a weight not natural to him) to face a natural welterweight and give up a big weight advantage and risk having his train stopped? And then theres the catchweight. Meeting in the middle to try to even the odds, but more than likely it would hurt Mosley more than Pacquiao. I guess it all depends on whose got more to proove, who thinks they need it more. That will determine the weight at which this fight is fought!;)
Some good points raised by lots of people. The point here is....if Manny does not want to fight at 147, don't fight at 147. There is absolutely no point fighting a 147 guy if your going to demand he drains himself to make weight, (I know it's Roach and not Pac suggesting the 'catchweight' BTW) we all know some fighters may risk it for a high payday and some are just too fucking greedy to care *cough* DLH *cough*
Shane said he would like to fight Manny, he likes a challenge and he would fight anyone, it's not like he is calling out Manny in a big way, just expressed an interest in fighting Pac.
excellent post! Levi#1
- Wait a second what exactly does pound for pound mean? means weight for weight who is better right???if pac is a natural 135lb and mayweather is a natural 147lb, wouldnt a 142 be a good catch weight??? if Mayweather never leaves 147lb and even beats pac he would only be the best 147lb boxer ever...but not a p4p great.....
i think roach is trying to bypass.............if pac-man fights mosley, and sugar shane does a good job which he would even if he loses..........if shane beats pac, thats the mayweather fight gone, if he beats mosley but is a tricky fight then that may give mayweather a blueprint to work with........roach is just trying to avoid theses facts
Yeah 142 is a great weight for Manny, he just has a shite before the weigh in and he is there. For a natural 147 fighter it's much bigger deal, how do they lose the extra weight safely?Quote:
Originally Posted by osncoll_0716
Mosley still an option for PAC if he will agree to come down at 142 but it seems Mosley can't do it then I think Mosley is now excluded as a possible PAC opponent...Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad MissyQuote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxerIt's Mosley who's been chasing the Pacquiao fight... PAC's coach said it, he's just protecting his boxer... No need for PAC to fight Mosley at 147... PAC might just wait for the winner of PBF-JMM...Quote:
Originally Posted by blegit
He mentioned fighting Mosley before the Hatton fight.
If there is no need for Pac to fight him why say it's an option? If it's not an option say there is no way they'll fight not talk up some crap about a stupid 'catchweight'. Another thing if Roach gave a shit about other boxers he wouldn't insist on them dropping weight to fight Pac.
By rabbiting on in the public eye about it he is putting pressure on fighters to sign.
They should stick together and go tell Roach/Pac to screw themselves. If the other big names refuse these conditions Pas gets frozen out at true world level. They need to realise it takes two big names to make a fight legit.
Wanna play hardball? Come sign with Missy. I'll look after a fighter;D
Cotto already declared that he can go down to 144 to fight PAC so maybe Team PAC can consider that catchweight instead of having Cotto go down to 140 as what Roach was originally asking...
PBF and JMM will be fighting at 143 so it's a no brainer that the winner of PBF-JMM can also fight PAC at 143...
Still lots of options for PAC...
.
If PAC wants to get his 7th division title then maybe he can get it from the winner of Urango-Berto fight... Remember Hatton "beat" Urango and PAC KO'ed Hatton cold... Plus Urango is super slow... Hatton "beat" Collazo and Collazo did good against Berto and PAC KO'ed Hatton cold...;)Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
PAC has good chances against either Urango or Berto...;D I'm really hoping Urango upsets Berto... :lolhaha:
.
Links?Quote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxerMosley still an option for PAC if he will agree to come down at 142 but it seems Mosley can't do it then I think Mosley is now excluded as a possible PAC opponent...Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad MissyQuote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxer
He mentioned fighting Mosley before the Hatton fight.
If there is no need for Pac to fight him why say it's an option? If it's not an option say there is no way they'll fight not talk up some crap about a stupid 'catchweight'. Another thing if Roach gave a shit about other boxers he wouldn't insist on them dropping weight to fight Pac.
By rabbiting on in the public eye about it he is putting pressure on fighters to sign.
They should stick together and go tell Roach/Pac to screw themselves. If the other big names refuse these conditions Pas gets frozen out at true world level. They need to realise it takes two big names to make a fight legit.
Wanna play hardball? Come sign with Missy. I'll look after a fighter;D
Cotto already declared that he can go down to 144 to fight PAC so maybe Team PAC can consider that catchweight instead of having Cotto go down to 140 as what Roach was originally asking...
PBF and JMM will be fighting at 143 so it's a no brainer that the winner of PBF-JMM can also fight PAC at 143...
Still lots of options for PAC...
.
PBF JMM at 143 please?
Cotto agreeing to 144 please?
Just links thankyou SB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KelLinks?Quote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxerMosley still an option for PAC if he will agree to come down at 142 but it seems Mosley can't do it then I think Mosley is now excluded as a possible PAC opponent...Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
Cotto already declared that he can go down to 144 to fight PAC so maybe Team PAC can consider that catchweight instead of having Cotto go down to 140 as what Roach was originally asking...
PBF and JMM will be fighting at 143 so it's a no brainer that the winner of PBF-JMM can also fight PAC at 143...
Still lots of options for PAC...
.
PBF JMM at 143 please?
Cotto agreeing to 144 please?
Just links thankyou SB.
link --> PBF JMM at 143
link --> Cotto agreeing to 144
No worries mate...
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Your such a loser JT, do you ever make sense?:rolleyes: Find a new forum please, where someone cares what you say! How can you make those claims, Berto hasn't even been tested yet? What an idiot!
dude you shouldn't be talkin too much cause you're on that list as well, haven't seen one semi-intelligent post from youQuote:
Originally Posted by levi#1BoxingFanQuote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Your such a loser JT, do you ever make sense?:rolleyes: Find a new forum please, where someone cares what you say! How can you make those claims, Berto hasn't even been tested yet? What an idiot!
:lol::lolhaha::biglaugh::lolololol: :LMAO::rofmaoal: hahahahahahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesQuote:
Originally Posted by levi#1BoxingFanQuote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Your such a loser JT, do you ever make sense?:rolleyes: Find a new forum please, where someone cares what you say! How can you make those claims, Berto hasn't even been tested yet? What an idiot!
If it's not safe for a former 135 pounder to fight at 142 then I guess it also not safe for a former 106 pounder to fight at 147lbs.
I guess it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.:)
Manny becoming a 7 division champ will make him one of the most envied fighter of all time.
yeah Roach , building a legacy on beating up old former champions, raw decisions to JMM and asking older fighters to drop down to a catch weights....... and asking lighter fighters to move up in weight .... enough already of this bullshit manilpulation !! Fight top names at their best weights !!!
lol .... The most shameful thing in life is beating up old men !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxinglol .... The most shameful thing in life is beating up old men !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
What's your comment if the 30 year old PAC will try to get his 7th division title from 28 year old Urango or from 25 year old Berto? ;)
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I should ban you for such stupidity.Quote:
Originally Posted by osncoll_0716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxinglol .... The most shameful thing in life is beating up old men !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
As a pacfan we're used to that, PAC will never get credited for his greatness. Old or dehydrated ODLH's natural height/size advantage warrants him to win but he didnt. Hatton OLD:o
it dosent take a genius to figure out that Berto is thicker, has blinding handspeed and combos to go with a 160lb fight night weigh in even though he is a welterweight. You actually think Pac could beat Berto? Seriously how????? You dont even know what the hell your talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by levi#1BoxingFanQuote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Your such a loser JT, do you ever make sense?:rolleyes: Find a new forum please, where someone cares what you say! How can you make those claims, Berto hasn't even been tested yet? What an idiot!
You are typical... Instead of refuting my point with some intelligence, you call me a loser and tell me to find a new forum:confused: Really son, this my house been here 3 + years and almost 8000 posts, you are a gutter twat who insight is... Pac will beat Berto beacause he is Pac, and thats it... the Chuck norris facts were really for Pac:rolleyes: Kindly piss off and shine my shoes junior :beat:
that he went after the two weakest "champs" at 147 , if he was to do it at 147, against Cotto, Mosley, or Mayweather, then i'd give him all the credit in the world, same as i did against HattonQuote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxerQuote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxinglol .... The most shameful thing in life is beating up old men !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
What's your comment if the 30 year old PAC will try to get his 7th division title from 28 year old Urango or from 25 year old Berto? ;)
.
Poor talent pool ........ once again !!!! earning Belts vs. one of these guys as in when he fought the lesser Diaz, . great "cautious" path too gaining belts !!Quote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxerQuote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxinglol .... The most shameful thing in life is beating up old men !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
What's your comment if the 30 year old PAC will try to get his 7th division title from 28 year old Urango or from 25 year old Berto? ;)
.
No, Hatton no "SKILL"Quote:
Originally Posted by PavlikQuote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxinglol .... The most shameful thing in life is beating up old men !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
As a pacfan we're used to that, PAC will never get credited for his greatness. Old or dehydrated ODLH's natural height/size advantage warrants him to win but he didnt. Hatton OLD:o