Article: Russia and China warn US that an Israeli attack on Iran means world war...

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Originally Posted by Nameless

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Nameless

The modern knot of this struggle is the structure of the UN: The security concil and the unlimited veto they can blindly use. i wrote an article that will get published about it in a few months, halas it's in french otherwise I would upload it for the interested ones, I just need to make a few touches up and it's done. If one couldn't use the veto more than X times on some regions or some cases, Israel wouldn't be on the winning end as they would face sanctions. Unfortunately, the consil can wage as many vetos as they want and then, countries of that consil can protect their own interests and we have the mess we face now, especially because it gives all the flux of arguments to fill the mulsim radical groups: "- you see, the international community aren't helping us and aren't willing to do so, the only solution we have is Allah and to show them what we're made of'". Change the veto situation and on the other end, you also choke down the muslim radicals as their revendications are obsolete if Palestine recover their lost boundaries and have a legitimate state.

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Well, point taken, I wasn't so much referring to what is happening now is to what happened back then when Israel was formed. But yeah, the UN now sure has it's flaws and limitations. The veto system certainly hi-lites those flaws, but I'm nott convinced veto system is the problem in and of itself, but it is misused by those who have veto power as a way to further their politics. The real problem is a total lack of consensus on the politics.

Anyways, I'm interested in your article, give us a link when it gets published, even if it is in French I have friends that can deal with that.

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I have to send it tomorrow or in 2 days, I can send it to you in the meantime for a lecture if you want, it's more or less 15 full pages. Thus said, I really think after my researches that the veto system is a major problem, I explain why in a nutshell:

the 5 persons who are the only one to benefit it are the 5 kings winner of the second world war: France, China, Russia, UK, US, at the time, these countries were given that (by themselves, of course) as they were the "guardians" of the planet, the 5 most able nations. TOday things have chanced and many other countries are contributing even more to the UN than some of them (i.e Japan and Germany for example). On all the vetos waved, 90% have been used.. by Russia and the US. Basically, if you possess a veto, you can't be sentenced by anything at all by the UN, you're totally covered.
Not only that but any resolution voted by the general assembly depends about if you decide or not to use your veto, so basically, the article 97 that says that every nations are equal in the UN is pure bullshit as 5 countries can say no to whatever they want and nobody can't do nothing about it. To this day, more than 135 resolutions have been voted against israel because of their incredible and non-sense actions, war crimes and such... 135 times the international community said that it was too much and had to be sanctionned but the US did drown the whole thing, just making the problem bigger and bigger.
Everytime a resolution is voted or vetoed, not only the whole system is paralyzed but it costs hundred of thousand of dollars, sometimes millions thrown down the drain (hostel for everybody, paying security, deplacement, lawyers, translaters etc). If 75% of the world vote in favor of something, how can you justify that a random dude, because he won 70 years ago has the sole right to say no depending of his humor? especially when he's not "watching" as much as he's supposed to over the rest of the world? if you ask me, this is non-sense, the veto should be abolished or controlled, like you can't use it more than once a year or not more than once or twice when it concerns denounciations of a specific country.

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Really interesting post. I agree with pretty much all of what you are saying here. The UN clearly needs reforming with special attention being paid to the paralysing and wasteful veto.

Israel should have been undergoing international sanctions years ago. The amount of garbage they have been allowed to get away with over the years is shameful.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

People in the Middle East tend to get the other end of the superior firepower rather than the freedom and liberty thing though.

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...perhaps they should change their tune, you know, kill us with kindness instead of just trying to kill us.

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

And we know all the Iranian nuclear scientists. They all went to school in the west to learn the nuke stuff and they're all vetted by our security services before they even are accepted on a course. The inspectors know them all and monitor what they're doing all the time too. We know what their nuke-qualified people are doing all the time. Any serious attempt to build something covertly we'd know about. At best they probably have the outline of a crash-building programme ready to go.

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Because we are certain that we know all of the nuke specialists that are on the Iranian payroll?

Anyways, by "we" I assume you mean western governments by virtue of their association with the IAEA.

OK, you've made your point, I don't quite share your confidence in our ability to keep on knowing all the salient facts. But your logic based on these premises is solid.When it comes to consensus, that's as far as I can go.

:)

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Yes, we do. We know everything about every person who studies nuclear technology in the few western universities that teach the really important stuff, both our own and foreign citizens, and those people all get tracked throughout their careers wherever they go.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

People in the Middle East tend to get the other end of the superior firepower rather than the freedom and liberty thing though.

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...perhaps they should change their tune, you know, kill us with kindness instead of just trying to kill us.

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Maybe if Americans didn't wet the bed over things like Saddam and his fearsome weapons of mass destruction and their government go off and kill a million Iraqis then Middle Eastern people would feel less inclined to fly planes into buildings. They've had fifty years of miserable repression at the hands of the US, maybe if they hadn't had that it's unlikely that they'd be so upset. If North Carolina had been transported into Jordan, for instance, one of the nastiest secret police states over there and one whose regime is propped up by US military/security/diplomatic aid for half a century now, but we change "US" to say Iranian or Pakistani, how would you feel if your rulers were doing the exact opposite of what you wanted at the behest and control of the Iranians/Pakistanis?

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

And we know all the Iranian nuclear scientists. They all went to school in the west to learn the nuke stuff and they're all vetted by our security services before they even are accepted on a course. The inspectors know them all and monitor what they're doing all the time too. We know what their nuke-qualified people are doing all the time. Any serious attempt to build something covertly we'd know about. At best they probably have the outline of a crash-building programme ready to go.

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Because we are certain that we know all of the nuke specialists that are on the Iranian payroll?

Anyways, by "we" I assume you mean western governments by virtue of their association with the IAEA.

OK, you've made your point, I don't quite share your confidence in our ability to keep on knowing all the salient facts. But your logic based on these premises is solid.When it comes to consensus, that's as far as I can go.

:)

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Yes, we do. We know everything about every person who studies nuclear technology in the few western universities that teach the really important stuff, both our own and foreign citizens, and those people all get tracked throughout their careers wherever they go.

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right ok, you are certain that we know everything there is to know about the world's supply of uranium, and furthermore we know everything worth knowing about everybody who is working in the field of nuclear technology. I can't believe you are serious. Go ahead and believe it if you want, but don't be too surprised if more than a few people don't fall for this politically motivated horseshit.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Maybe if Americans didn't wet the bed over things like Saddam and his fearsome weapons of mass destruction and their government go off and kill a million Iraqis then Middle Eastern people would feel less inclined to fly planes into buildings. They've had fifty years of miserable repression at the hands of the US, maybe if they hadn't had that it's unlikely that they'd be so upset. If North Carolina had been transported into Jordan, for instance, one of the nastiest secret police states over there and one whose regime is propped up by US military/security/diplomatic aid for half a century now, but we change "US" to say Iranian or Pakistani, how would you feel if your rulers were doing the exact opposite of what you wanted at the behest and control of the Iranians/Pakistanis?

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We're just protecting our Allies as we always have done....we eventually came to the aid of France and England, but Germany and Italy didn't go suicide bombing us afterwards. We totally flattened Japan but they took it and now look at them, they are our good buddies!

Here are some words for the people of Iran, and any other country that loves posturing against the US...GROW UP, we're the super power, so you have oil and you feel used because everyone is paying you millions of dollars to take it off your hands, oh boo fucking hoo. I would say when life hands you lemons make lemonade but Jesus, life has handed you a never ending supply of oil which you can use to become rich as hell and yet all you do is suicide bomb innocent people....WTF??? There are many more fun things to do with money other than build bombs and start wars.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Maybe if Americans didn't wet the bed over things like Saddam and his fearsome weapons of mass destruction and their government go off and kill a million Iraqis then Middle Eastern people would feel less inclined to fly planes into buildings. They've had fifty years of miserable repression at the hands of the US, maybe if they hadn't had that it's unlikely that they'd be so upset. If North Carolina had been transported into Jordan, for instance, one of the nastiest secret police states over there and one whose regime is propped up by US military/security/diplomatic aid for half a century now, but we change "US" to say Iranian or Pakistani, how would you feel if your rulers were doing the exact opposite of what you wanted at the behest and control of the Iranians/Pakistanis?

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We're just protecting our Allies as we always have done....we eventually came to the aid of France and England, but Germany and Italy didn't go suicide bombing us afterwards. We totally flattened Japan but they took it and now look at them, they are our good buddies!

Here are some words for the people of Iran, and any other country that loves posturing against the US...GROW UP, we're the super power, so you have oil and you feel used because everyone is paying you millions of dollars to take it off your hands, oh boo fucking hoo. I would say when life hands you lemons make lemonade but Jesus, life has handed you a never ending supply of oil which you can use to become rich as hell and yet all you do is suicide bomb innocent people....WTF??? There are many more fun things to do with money other than build bombs and start wars.

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So says the spokesman of the nation that seems to have been in more wars than any other since WW2. All America seems to do is build nuclear weapons and start wars. Pot calling kettle black....;D

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Damn this is quite scary and also in a way exciting news.

According to the Bible, this age will end after the formation of the One World Order and then the inevitable turning on Israel by every nation of the world.

In Revelation it talks of the Euphrates river being damned up and an army of 200 Million marching on Israel.

for almost one hundred years biblical scholars have been saying this will be the Chinese.

Also it then says when the armies surround Israel a massive explosion occurs, that those surrounding the city have their eyeballs melt in their sockets, that one third of mankind is killed and that the leaders of men hide in caves.

This nucluear war has been predicted even for the past 2000 years.

If you think I'm being far fetched as usual, consider also that the exact date of the refounding of Israel, in 1948 was predicted by scholars as early as the 1800's.

EVERYTHING in the Bible is coming true exactly as it says it would.

It's some scary shit to be sure, but also exciting that those of us alive now could be alive to witness the end of the ages.

We're hurtling towards the last days now.

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I am also thinking the same thing Bilbo. If the Bible had prophesied it, then it's bound to happen.:cool:

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Originally Posted by miles

So says the spokesman of the nation that seems to have been in more wars than any other since WW2. All America seems to do is build nuclear weapons and start wars. Pot calling kettle black....;D

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Is it our fault we have so many Allies?

As for nukes, we're responsible with our toys, Iran doesn't play nice...we very well could nuke whoever goes against us, but we're the good guys and countries like Iran, North Korea, and anyone else who wants to be a loudmouth keep needling us, it makes it hard to be nice...in all honesty I think we've been extremely patient and responsible with our foreign policy in regards to wars.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by miles

So says the spokesman of the nation that seems to have been in more wars than any other since WW2. All America seems to do is build nuclear weapons and start wars. Pot calling kettle black....;D

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Is it our fault we have so many Allies?

As for nukes, we're responsible with our toys, Iran doesn't play nice...we very well could nuke whoever goes against us, but we're the good guys and countries like Iran, North Korea, and anyone else who wants to be a loudmouth keep needling us, it makes it hard to be nice...in all honesty I think we've been extremely patient and responsible with our foreign policy in regards to wars.

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Just bomb the North Koreans and get it over with. It's the only country that annoys me less that South Korea. :o;)

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by miles

So says the spokesman of the nation that seems to have been in more wars than any other since WW2. All America seems to do is build nuclear weapons and start wars. Pot calling kettle black....;D

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Is it our fault we have so many Allies?

As for nukes, we're responsible with our toys, Iran doesn't play nice...we very well could nuke whoever goes against us, but we're the good guys and countries like Iran, North Korea, and anyone else who wants to be a loudmouth keep needling us, it makes it hard to be nice...in all honesty I think we've been extremely patient and responsible with our foreign policy in regards to wars.

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Well, I could name a lot of places where US didn't play nice at all and did overthrow some democratic regimes because it did serve their interests... Consider that in the past 50 years, the US has been the country that was involved in the biggest number of wars too, more than often where they didn't belong just to serve their interests. Also, it's not because you have the power to nuke somebody that you can do so, the system of international relationships is a bit more complicated than that Lyle.

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by CGM

Because we are certain that we know all of the nuke specialists that are on the Iranian payroll?

Anyways, by "we" I assume you mean western governments by virtue of their association with the IAEA.

OK, you've made your point, I don't quite share your confidence in our ability to keep on knowing all the salient facts. But your logic based on these premises is solid.When it comes to consensus, that's as far as I can go.

:)

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Yes, we do. We know everything about every person who studies nuclear technology in the few western universities that teach the really important stuff, both our own and foreign citizens, and those people all get tracked throughout their careers wherever they go.

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right ok, you are certain that we know everything there is to know about the world's supply of uranium, and furthermore we know everything worth knowing about everybody who is working in the field of nuclear technology. I can't believe you are serious. Go ahead and believe it if you want, but don't be too surprised if more than a few people don't fall for this politically motivated horseshit.

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There are only a small number of scientists in the world with the knowledge to build nuclear weapons. The knowledge is carefully controlled and restricted to people that the western security services know all about. Every single person with that knowledge is carefully monitored throughout their career and they can only get that knowledge by their country having signed the non-proliferation treaty, which puts huge conditions and regulations on any country signing it. Like Iran! Iran signed the nonproliferation traty and that's how we know all their nuclear scientists, have been monitoring their nuclear programme since it started, etc. And they still haven't done a single thing that they're not allowed to do under the terms of that treaty! They still haven't broken it! All the scare stories rely on them breaking the terms of the treaty they signed and they haven't shown any signs of doing that.

Here's somebody else who isn't falling for the politically motivated horseshit, the US intelligence community. Here's the latest US intel estimate on Iran and theydon't think Iran are trying to build a bomb either.

http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf

They say Iran stopped any programme to build a weapon in 2003.

ere's an American intel guy making the same point recently :

Official stands by Iran nuke report - Washington Times

So the politically motivated bs is coming from people claiming Iran is a threat.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Maybe if Americans didn't wet the bed over things like Saddam and his fearsome weapons of mass destruction and their government go off and kill a million Iraqis then Middle Eastern people would feel less inclined to fly planes into buildings. They've had fifty years of miserable repression at the hands of the US, maybe if they hadn't had that it's unlikely that they'd be so upset. If North Carolina had been transported into Jordan, for instance, one of the nastiest secret police states over there and one whose regime is propped up by US military/security/diplomatic aid for half a century now, but we change "US" to say Iranian or Pakistani, how would you feel if your rulers were doing the exact opposite of what you wanted at the behest and control of the Iranians/Pakistanis?

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We're just protecting our Allies as we always have done....we eventually came to the aid of France and England, but Germany and Italy didn't go suicide bombing us afterwards. We totally flattened Japan but they took it and now look at them, they are our good buddies!

Here are some words for the people of Iran, and any other country that loves posturing against the US...GROW UP, we're the super power, so you have oil and you feel used because everyone is paying you millions of dollars to take it off your hands, oh boo fucking hoo. I would say when life hands you lemons make lemonade but Jesus, life has handed you a never ending supply of oil which you can use to become rich as hell and yet all you do is suicide bomb innocent people....WTF??? There are many more fun things to do with money other than build bombs and start wars.

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You weren't protecting any allies when you overthrew a democratically elected secular government in Iran in 1953 and propped a dictator up there till 1979. You're not protecting any allies by propping up all the current Arab dictators, you're maintaining control of the region's oil.


life has handed you a never ending supply of oil which you can use to become rich as hell and yet all you do is suicide bomb innocent people....WTF??? There are many more fun things to do with money other than build bombs and start wars.

Other than the word "suicide" this is a good description of the situation in America.

Man I sure am glad I have this forum so I can have people who are not US citizens, don't live here and don't vote for our leaders tell me on a regular basis what a crappy country I live in and how they really know what is best for my nation.

We have a right to bear arms!
That means we have a right to sell the old shit and then try out the new shit on the idots that bought the old shit from us.

Its a win win so far. We win , :spongebob: hey great we won again!

Wonder how many more single wins we got, until they all gang up on us?

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

Man I sure am glad I have this forum so I can have people who are not US citizens, don't live here and don't vote for our leaders tell me on a regular basis what a crappy country I live in and how they really know what is best for my nation.

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Does one really need a US passport, a US residence and a redundant vote to make an informed decision about US society and politics? Surely there are huge swathes of US people with those "qualifications" who are totally ignorant about the important historical evolution US foreign policy and the party poltical system. In this regard a great number of "ousiders" are probably far more qualified to pass judgement on the US.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion about something no matter where they are from, just as long as it is an informed opinion.

Opinions are like assholes Miles...everyone has them...But if it makes you feel better I will start making daily posts about what piece of shit country the UK is and how if you'd just listen to me and some other "informed" Americans you could really turn it around. I pointed out not being a citizen, living here or voting b/c that makes you a non factor and the 300 million of us that are here don't give a shit what you think much like the entire UK would feel about any "informed" American espousing their opinions.

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

Opinions are like assholes Miles...everyone has them...But if it makes you feel better I will start making daily posts about what piece of shit country the UK is and how if you'd just listen to me and some other "informed" Americans you could really turn it around. I pointed out not being a citizen, living here or voting b/c that makes you a non factor and the 300 million of us that are here don't give a shit what you think much like the entire UK would feel about any "informed" American espousing their opinions.

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Yep, everyone has them....

You could start criticising the UK and saying how shit it is....but I would probably only agree with you. I have no issues with people commenting on my country for good or bad. In fact, I like to hear opinions and the opinions of outsiders are just as interesting to me as those who own that cherished purple passport. Whether they can vote or not really has no bearing on the issue. And even those with the cherished passports are typically too lazy to vote anyway....and are probably so dull and apathetic that don't really have much of an opinion to listen to. Give me the informed outsiders over the uninformed insiders anyday! :D

what has happened to Von Milash?

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Originally Posted by boozeboxer

what has happened to Von Milash?

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Was in the Middle East negotiating peace last I heard.

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Originally Posted by boozeboxer

what has happened to Von Milash?

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He got banned for being a raving psychopath.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by boozeboxer

what has happened to Von Milash?

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He got banned for being a raving psychopath.

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Ah, Von Milash. I recall the war I got into for suggesting he get a job. :-X;D

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

Opinions are like assholes Miles...everyone has them...But if it makes you feel better I will start making daily posts about what piece of shit country the UK is and how if you'd just listen to me and some other "informed" Americans you could really turn it around. I pointed out not being a citizen, living here or voting b/c that makes you a non factor and the 300 million of us that are here don't give a shit what you think much like the entire UK would feel about any "informed" American espousing their opinions.

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Yep, everyone has them....

You could start criticising the UK and saying how shit it is....but I would probably only agree with you. I have no issues with people commenting on my country for good or bad. In fact, I like to hear opinions and the opinions of outsiders are just as interesting to me as those who own that cherished purple passport. Whether they can vote or not really has no bearing on the issue. And even those with the cherished passports are typically too lazy to vote anyway....and are probably so dull and apathetic that don't really have much of an opinion to listen to. Give me the informed outsiders over the uninformed insiders anyday! :D

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Fair enough you cynical bastard but I was really speaking more to Kirk. You are never shy to share an opinion but spread your negativity all the way around. Mr Laing doesn't take it nearly as well as he dishes it out.

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Originally Posted by boozeboxer

what has happened to Von Milash?

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Banned for perceived persistant racist comments about muslims. He is on Facebook if you are interested in catching up.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

Man I sure am glad I have this forum so I can have people who are not US citizens, don't live here and don't vote for our leaders tell me on a regular basis what a crappy country I live in and how they really know what is best for my nation.

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Does one really need a US passport, a US residence and a redundant vote to make an informed decision about US society and politics? Surely there are huge swathes of US people with those "qualifications" who are totally ignorant about the important historical evolution US foreign policy and the party poltical system. In this regard a great number of "ousiders" are probably far more qualified to pass judgement on the US.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion about something no matter where they are from, just as long as it is an informed opinion.

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I'm with Miles, not to endorse his opinions, but this is after all a discussion on foreign policy. Which is about how a country relates to the rest of the world, so that indeed qualifies the rest of the world to comment.

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

Opinions are like assholes Miles...everyone has them...But if it makes you feel better I will start making daily posts about what piece of shit country the UK is and how if you'd just listen to me and some other "informed" Americans you could really turn it around. I pointed out not being a citizen, living here or voting b/c that makes you a non factor and the 300 million of us that are here don't give a shit what you think much like the entire UK would feel about any "informed" American espousing their opinions.

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Yep, everyone has them....

You could start criticising the UK and saying how shit it is....but I would probably only agree with you. I have no issues with people commenting on my country for good or bad. In fact, I like to hear opinions and the opinions of outsiders are just as interesting to me as those who own that cherished purple passport. Whether they can vote or not really has no bearing on the issue. And even those with the cherished passports are typically too lazy to vote anyway....and are probably so dull and apathetic that don't really have much of an opinion to listen to. Give me the informed outsiders over the uninformed insiders anyday! :D

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Fair enough you cynical bastard but I was really speaking more to Kirk. You are never shy to share an opinion but spread your negativity all the way around. Mr Laing doesn't take it nearly as well as he dishes it out.

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Fair enough then if that was the case, but it felt like an open question so I interpreted it as such.

And as for my negativity. Well, you might percieve it as that. I'm not so sure. I might vent on occasion and have pet topics, but I certainly don't come on here looking to spread misery all around. I'm quite content.

Anyway, I don't really want to get into a slanging match, so I will leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

Man I sure am glad I have this forum so I can have people who are not US citizens, don't live here and don't vote for our leaders tell me on a regular basis what a crappy country I live in and how they really know what is best for my nation.

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Does one really need a US passport, a US residence and a redundant vote to make an informed decision about US society and politics? Surely there are huge swathes of US people with those "qualifications" who are totally ignorant about the important historical evolution US foreign policy and the party poltical system. In this regard a great number of "ousiders" are probably far more qualified to pass judgement on the US.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion about something no matter where they are from, just as long as it is an informed opinion.

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I'm with Miles, not to endorse his opinions, but this is after all a discussion on foreign policy. Which is about how a country relates to the rest of the world, so that indeed qualifies the rest of the world to comment.

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I think its pretty easy to sit and take pot shots from the sideline. We don't always get it right but no nation takes as much of an interest in international issues as the US. (even if it is for our own interests ) Multiple posters on this site aren't adding to the discussion they simply jump at any point to slander the US. And if you notice miles bolded society and politics not foreign policy. Call me defensive if you want but I think its pretty presumptuos for someone not living in the US to claim an informed opinion about either.

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by miles

Does one really need a US passport, a US residence and a redundant vote to make an informed decision about US society and politics? Surely there are huge swathes of US people with those "qualifications" who are totally ignorant about the important historical evolution US foreign policy and the party poltical system. In this regard a great number of "ousiders" are probably far more qualified to pass judgement on the US.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion about something no matter where they are from, just as long as it is an informed opinion.

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I'm with Miles, not to endorse his opinions, but this is after all a discussion on foreign policy. Which is about how a country relates to the rest of the world, so that indeed qualifies the rest of the world to comment.

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I think its pretty easy to sit and take pot shots from the sideline. We don't always get it right but no nation takes as much of an interest in international issues as the US. (even if it is for our own interests ) Multiple posters on this site aren't adding to the discussion they simply jump at any point to slander the US. And if you notice miles bolded society and politics not foreign policy. Call me defensive if you want but I think its pretty presumptuos for someone not living in the US to claim an informed opinion about either.

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OK well yes Miles did in fact hi-lite society and politics in his post, so you do have a fair point there. But must of what was actually discussed was about foreign policy, so my original point still stands on that basis. And again when it comes to foreign policy, being "foreign" does not put one on the sideline, it puts one in the middle of things.

But you do have a good point and I agree with you about some people who always seem to take shots at the US, or find fault in every last thing they do. And I've said the same thing to Lyle. As a Canadian I think we could do a whole lot worse than have the US as a neighbor, though I don't think we should automatically support the US on issues regarding foreign policy.

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

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Originally Posted by boozeboxer

what has happened to Von Milash?

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Banned for perceived persistant racist comments about muslims. He is on Facebook if you are interested in catching up.

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He got a temporary ban for that. He was permanently banned for harassing Saddo via PM/email afterwards.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

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Originally Posted by boozeboxer

what has happened to Von Milash?

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Banned for perceived persistant racist comments about muslims. He is on Facebook if you are interested in catching up.

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He got a temporary ban for that. He was permanently banned for harassing Saddo via PM/email afterwards.

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when I was banned I harassed Saddo by emailing naked pictures of myself. Strangely Saddo promptly reinstated me and asked me if I had thought about being a mod. :confused:

Not suprising that Von couldn't let something go...that being said the temporary bans for "racist" statements seem some what arbitrary at times.

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

Opinions are like assholes Miles...everyone has them...But if it makes you feel better I will start making daily posts about what piece of shit country the UK is and how if you'd just listen to me and some other "informed" Americans you could really turn it around. I pointed out not being a citizen, living here or voting b/c that makes you a non factor and the 300 million of us that are here don't give a shit what you think much like the entire UK would feel about any "informed" American espousing their opinions.

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America isn't a shit country, it's a lovely country, a lovely place to live. As is Britain. But America's foreign policy is horrific, especially when contrasted with the image of America as the world's foremost upholder of freedom, human rights etc. And so is Britain's! I personally don't give a monkeys if somebody has something negative to say about Britain. I may agree, I may not, but that person has the right to express themselves. Freedom of expression being one of the things western societies are supposed to stand for.

Kirk honestly can you name any nation who is a major player in the world and has a good history of foreign policy? You still jump at every opportunity to preach at the American's on the site about how bad our nation is and how you have all our answers. You don't really take it as well as you dish it out either. You went ape shit when I implied that much of Iraq's ethnic issues stem from the borders and government put in place by the British in 1921. I fully support your freedom to express anything your dear little heart wants. I don't think I ever said otherwise in my post, but in turn I am free to tell you to kiss my American ass when you run your trap.

No, I can't name any nation in the world that falls into that category. I didn't go apeshit, I just pointed out that the area now known as Iraq was fucked and fraactious for at least one thousand years before the Brits got there, and that what the Brits did (created "Iraq") stabilised things there to the extent that for the first time taxes could be collected, a state apparatus could funnction, and most importantly the country was stable and peaceful enough to set up an oil infrastructure and pump oil out of the country. I never claimed Britain as some human rights champion or beacon of freedom, have always pointed out their imperial and slightly naughty history

But the fact is at the moment in the world you have one overwhelming power that preaches freedom and human rights in principle -- even publishing report cards every year on how every other country in the world is doing re. democratic institutions, human rights etc. -- setting itself up as the arbiter of how democratic ideals are progressing in the rest of the world, while behaving like an imperial power at the same time. Criticising the dictators it props up, starting illegal wars, that sort of thing.

Now I'm not desperate to criticise, it's just when there's a situation where America is involved and somebody starts a thread about it, like this one, I'm going to call it as I see it. I'm sorry if the truth hurts.

Illegal war? Only someone who has never heard a shot fired in anger can say that with a straight face. Legality his hardly an issue when bullets are flying. The term is an oxymoron at its finest. I am sure if you really wanted to you could find some "legal" issue with taking the beach at Normandy. I am sure the poor German shmuck manning the bunker probably had a issue with it. Only a select foolish few will argue we had a "good" reason to invade Iraq, but the whole "illegal" term is just some liberal jargon. For anyone that is interested here is the thread
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...s-baghdad.html

Yall can take a look for yourself and see the hypocrisy that is Kirk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

Illegal war? Only someone who has never heard a shot fired in anger can say that with a straight face. Legality his hardly an issue when bullets are flying. The term is an oxymoron at its finest. I am sure if you really wanted to you could find some "legal" issue with taking the beach at Normandy. I am sure the poor German shmuck manning the bunker probably had a issue with it. Only a select foolish few will argue we had a "good" reason to invade Iraq, but the whole "illegal" term is just some liberal jargon. For anyone that is interested here is the thread
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...s-baghdad.html

Yall can take a look for yourself and see the hypocrisy that is Kirk.

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The Iraq war was illegal according to the UN. On the eve of war even Bush admitted he didn't have the authority to invade, he just claimed he had the will, rather like a certain mid -twentieth century western European foreign country-invader who also used to spend a lot of time talking about the importance of will.


And as for hypocrisy, from the thread :

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...s/viewpost.gif
You didn't point out anything to me b/c I never said otherwise. I have never agreed with or supported the invasion or the nation building strategy. My posts support this. Why you continue to harp on it when we discuss Iraq is beyond me. Rationalizing one nations actions in the middle east by pointing the finger else where is not arguing a point its just that rationalizing. I am willing to say that my nation has been wrong more often then not in how they deal with the middle east you on the other hand seem to possess to much pride and ego.

So you agree that America didn't invade Iraq to bring them freedom and democracy. That just leaves the same reason the Brits originally went there. It looks like we both agree we went there to further control over the world's oil supply.

And I've already said that what Britain did was bad. What we're doing there now is also bad. I think Blair and other top British officials should be facing war crimes charges for invading. But letting the various groups war it out till they eventually stop fighting each other and come to some sort of settlement wasn't and isn't an option for any imperial power (which I think Britain and America effectively still are.) Certainly various American administrations including Bush 41 weren't in favour of letting Iraq split into constituent parts or even have a change of regime. So while it was and is the correct business/geopolitical/strategic decision, and while I've benefitted as a member of an imperial country from the policy, it isn't the moral or correct one.
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Hypocrisy?? Looks like you are losing your touch...Another swing and a miss Kirk. Maybe you should read a little Websters. I am not having this argument again. I already made you look like the joke that you are.

OK, then. :)

And let the fun begin if the article is true!:D

I miss Kirkland, I always thought he was a very good poster. His only flaw was a strange allegiance to the Royal family.