Printable View
perfect timing kills speed.
"The Nacho Way" as I like to call it is all about timing and precise punching.
To be quite honest all this speed and muscle and defense and offense things are not on my mind. The 2 more important questions for me are:
1. Does JMM have the strenght/power to either hurt or cause PBF damage.
2. Will JMM be able to fight 12 rounds at this weight.
The last thing you want, is that your boxer loses faith in his abilities. Such comment is the perfect bomb to make your boy to wonder and to lose focus... Nacho is an elite coach, one of the best in the business, he would never do something that could make his boy (especially JMM) to lose confidence.
I call the bullshit on that.
I would agree with you on the 'Speed vs Timing' thing but Floyd also has phenomenal timing and reflexes to boot. So Marquez is gonna have to retain his own speed and hope that Mayweather is rusty.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Speed, Strength, Defence, Accuracy, Power... All these things are stacked in Mayweathers favour.
The one thing that really matters for me is Marquez' game plan and his willingness to execute it.... Regardless of all his deficiencies.
you really cant compare a olympic sprinters muscles to a boxer. a boxer needs stamina sprinters has very little. marathon runner maybe and we all know how a marathon runners physique is.
you can gain weight by just eating a lot and get fat or eat and build up muscles. a boxers speed might be affected a little since you gained more weight.
Marquez does look unnaturally buffed up. I have always worried about how he might carry the weight as he is old and not growing into it naturally like Manny is. Marquez looks a bit weird being so stocky.
It would be strange for a boxers trainer to so openly belittle his own fighter, so I think it's a bluff. I hope Marquez pulls off a shocker of a win, but I'm nervous for him because I always thought it was a peculiar fight to make.
As much as I am a fan of JMM this fight shouldn't have been made. It's just so much a complete mismatch. Power, youth, speed, skills, size, everything is in Floyd's favor.
This article was already proven bogus. If you goto eastside boxing they did an interview with nacho, jmm and odlh. Nacho says he is very pleased with how training is going and the speed is there if not better
nice. thanks for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by markb018
thats great news thanks for that:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by jokalerasnice. thanks for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by markb018
I know this article is bogus, but are people forgetting Manny Pacquiao. Is faster than JMM, yet JMM was still very effective against Manny Pacquiao. Because JMM has excellent timing, speed isn't everything.
That's for sure, personally, I think that too many peoples are counting JMM as dead right now way too fast, we have to give Moneyfloyd the edge but I don't think it'll be a one sided decision like many think it will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
You are right, but what is going to be interesting to observe is whether Mayweather allows this to count. I mean, yes, JMM's excellent timing worked fantastically against Pacquiao, who only knows one way to fight - in and out, aggressive. If Mayweather decides to just counter and go for points, I favour Mayweather. If Mayweather decides to go on the offensive at any point Marquez will hurt him, and might even stop him if PBF goes toe-to-toe for a sustained period. But we all know that PBF is not likely to jeopardize a victory in order to look good, and will probably just allow JMM to be the aggressor in the first half of the fight, making him miss big wherever he can, and then take control with crisp counter punching in the second half of the fight - just as he did with De La Hoya.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Kostya Tszyu always said that timing was key and even claimed that his powerful punch was the result of good timing ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
My original point was on muscle mass affecting speed; I never said it was the ideal boxer's physique.Quote:
Originally Posted by mnmc10
Also, your point is academic: A marathon is consistent running/fast jogging over 2.5 hours and a boxing match is quick bursts of staccato action throughout a round, as well as minute's rest between them. Of course stamina is required, but it is combined with speed and explosive power. This is why many more boxers these days don't do long jogs, preferring to weight train, do short, sharp sprints and spar.
I don't really understand how you can imply a fighter's speed can diminish if he gains lean mass (within reason). Is Pacquiao really any slower at 140 than he was at 122?
You guys are trying to be scientific when it is common sense. It all in the Glutes. Most power is generated by lower body strength. The rest can be attributed to long arms ( with speed and extension) Marquez has both average . Strictly relies on tecnique and heart. Pac has greater lower body strength and speed with extension which carries up in weight
So given that information who was the last fighter Pac fought with great lower body strength and / or upper body strength? Morales the sole exception with 173cm. However he had no noted quickness at that stage of his boxing career ( never considered a KO artist ) Never able to use his quickness and length for power like Hearns.
So out of curiosity which "athlete" has Pac fought? Most have been average athletes over 30 years of age and on the end of their fighting careers, battle worn and with straight foward styles. Now Cotto does meet the challenge on paper but Margarito already did a "Color Me Mine " plaster job on Cotto so Pac should not receive credit for sending him into retirement just another " has been" Pac opponent.
There are only 4 opponents that stand a chance against Pac
JMM @ 135 More than this weight is a great advantage to Pac
Soto @ 135 More than this weight is a great advantage to Pac
PBF @147 asking this guy to weigh less is bullshit
Mosley @147 asking this guy to weigh less is bullshit
Why not have Pac weigh 10-12 lbs less in 3 more years and have him fight Abner Mares?
This is the same kinda BS his camp is pulling now
Hmmmmmmmmmmm Sounds like Pac's opponents lacking: Power, youth, and speed,. Who was the last one that had these attributes?
This isn't a Pac thread, ffs. Is it possible to stick to the subject without going off on some sorta "ya but Pac is awesome" or "ya but Pac is shit" tangent?
WHAT?!! ARE YOU INSANE MAN??! HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO HAVE A THREAD NOT ABOUT PAC?! :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngblood
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing
The irony is that you're fundamentally the same as the posters you claim to be opposed to.
I am not opposed to anyone. I just asked for someone to provide facts to obvious factors that have aided in Pac's rise to fame. I thought you might be the exception. So I guess it's true that facts are facts! Plus the topic is related to speed .....Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing
The irony is that you're fundamentally the same as the posters you claim to be opposed to.
I must inform you that I love watching Pac's fights, but C'mon true fame and respect is earned not appointed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the inbetweenerMy original point was on muscle mass affecting speed; I never said it was the ideal boxer's physique.Quote:
Originally Posted by mnmc10
Also, your point is academic: A marathon is consistent running/fast jogging over 2.5 hours and a boxing match is quick bursts of staccato action throughout a round, as well as minute's rest between them. Of course stamina is required, but it is combined with speed and explosive power. This is why many more boxers these days don't do long jogs, preferring to weight train, do short, sharp sprints and spar.
I don't really understand how you can imply a fighter's speed can diminish if he gains lean mass (within reason). Is Pacquiao really any slower at 140 than he was at 122?
have you tried to box before? or go at a heavy bag before? we are talking about lower weights here not heavies. heavies can go with spurts but not light weights. stamina is the biggest factor here, you compared muscle mass of 100m sprinters. they dont have the stamina to go 12 rounds. yes they have the speed but ony good for 10 seconds. muscle mass eats a lot of energy you only have speed if you have stamina. so yes bigger muscles will make you slower.
take a way long runs in boxing training and the boxer is doomed. pac lost some speed on heavier weights but good thing that he is still faster than anyone he fought. you will notice that pac is holding back a little more than before.
Exactly and this is the main reason why lifting weights or actually I should say heavy weight lifting is discouraged in boxing. The famous trainer Angelo Dundee discourages weight lifting in boxing especially for HWs because stamina becomes a major issue with them. Look at guys like Frank Bruno who was into Heavy weight lifting, he had shit stamina, Mike Tyson when he came out of prison lifted weights (probably started in prison) he too began to have shit stamina, that was never the case early in his career. David Haye is another guy that loves to lift heavy weights, and guess what his stamina has come into question. Even Shane Mosely said it left him gassed in the later rounds of fights and he lost his fluidity.Quote:
Originally Posted by mnmc10Quote:
Originally Posted by the inbetweenerMy original point was on muscle mass affecting speed; I never said it was the ideal boxer's physique.Quote:
Originally Posted by mnmc10
Also, your point is academic: A marathon is consistent running/fast jogging over 2.5 hours and a boxing match is quick bursts of staccato action throughout a round, as well as minute's rest between them. Of course stamina is required, but it is combined with speed and explosive power. This is why many more boxers these days don't do long jogs, preferring to weight train, do short, sharp sprints and spar.
I don't really understand how you can imply a fighter's speed can diminish if he gains lean mass (within reason). Is Pacquiao really any slower at 140 than he was at 122?
have you tried to box before? or go at a heavy bag before? we are talking about lower weights here not heavies. heavies can go with spurts but not light weights. stamina is the biggest factor here, you compared muscle mass of 100m sprinters. they dont have the stamina to go 12 rounds. yes they have the speed but ony good for 10 seconds. muscle mass eats a lot of energy you only have speed if you have stamina. so yes bigger muscles will make you slower.
take a way long runs in boxing training and the boxer is doomed. pac lost some speed on heavier weights but good thing that he is still faster than anyone he fought. you will notice that pac is holding back a little more than before.
I have to say yeah lifting heavy weights will get you that nice physique, but in boxing you're screwing yourself over.
Another good example of how speed is retained when moving up weights classes might be Roy Jones Jnr. He refused to use weights.
Instead, it was all push-up's & sit-up's.
He only touched weights for the 1st time when moving up to Heavyweight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing
youve been bashing pac for the longest time man! do you really think that you can change the way we think about pac? last time i checked pac fans outnumbers pac haters world wide. you and your gang can hate on pac 24/7 maybe convince some saddo forumers to join your group. you can shoo or get some pacfanatics banned in thi forum but you guys wont be able to convince the whole world that pac is just an ordinary boxer who fought old boxers who by the way does good against other fighters but not versus pac.
pac nuthuggers over praises pac as much as haters bash on him. the way i see it everytime a nuthugger mentions pacs name haters just jump on it immediately like a fish foolishly biting on a fishing hook with no bait. lol this is stupid!;D
A lot of people dont know wtf they are talking about in this thread regarding training. Seriously. Especially mnmc10. This isnt 1940 and running 10 miles a day isnt the answer. And no I dont want to debate it cuz its rediculous.
who said a boxer needs to run 10miles? the other guy said most boxers now doesnt jog and only do "sharp sprints"? besides im no boxer or trainer maybe you can enligthen us youngblood? name an active boxer who does not run atleast 5miles during training.
Simply, you can access the same systems for aerobic and anaeribic conditioning with specially designed sprints, namely tabatas, as well HIITs without losing power and strength (or ending up in a catabolic state having muscle depletion, be it lean or whatev) and still get the benefits of endurance. And have the explosiveness needed of the sprinter Re: accessing fast twitch muscle fibre. Much needed. Weights are very common to just about every boxer nowadays. Just need to be done properly (and diet surrounding it). Distance running is used more these days to shed weight then endurance. Variety is the key, to create muscle confusion to avoid plateau and continue to progress through barriers, in cardio and strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by mnmc10
Distance is ok, but certainly shouldn't be the mainstay of a cardio training regime. Not any more. We have just learned a lot more. They are only a small part of a routine. It's a bit of an old wives tale that it is the staple of boxers, along with only bodyweight workouts. And that heavy lifting = mass = bad. I guess I just got sucked into it, didn't I.
I think a lot of people, and even boxers beginning tend to think of the old training regimes being what is optimal for the sport. But it simply isn't.
Okay, again, my point was about muscle mass affecting pure speed, not stamina; earlier posters in the thread said that Marquez would perhaps be slower.Quote:
have you tried to box before? or go at a heavy bag before? we are talking about lower weights here not heavies. heavies can go with spurts but not light weights. stamina is the biggest factor here, you compared muscle mass of 100m sprinters. they dont have the stamina to go 12 rounds. yes they have the speed but ony good for 10 seconds. muscle mass eats a lot of energy you only have speed if you have stamina. so yes bigger muscles will make you slower.
take a way long runs in boxing training and the boxer is doomed. pac lost some speed on heavier weights but good thing that he is still faster than anyone he fought. you will notice that pac is holding back a little more than before.
What you appear to be saying is that a muscular fighter may be quick, but only momentarily because he will get tired. That's what conditioning's for. Correct nutrition, hiit and sparring (actually doing the sport itself is the best way to be conditioned for it), and those muscles could be fueled quite easily to go 12 rounds. It's about getting the right balance of fast twitch (speed, explosive power) and slow twitch (stamina) muscle fibres. It's all about the perfect balance, even at lower weights, not just stamina. No point in being able to jog around a ring for 36 mins, if you can't explode foward and land a powerful punch on your opponent's chin.
Heavy weight lifting doesn't necessarily equate massive muscle size. Perhaps you should give these a read:Quote:
Exactly and this is the main reason why lifting weights or actually I should say heavy weight lifting is discouraged in boxing. The famous trainer Angelo Dundee discourages weight lifting in boxing especially for HWs because stamina becomes a major issue with them. Look at guys like Frank Bruno who was into Heavy weight lifting, he had shit stamina, Mike Tyson when he came out of prison lifted weights (probably started in prison) he too began to have shit stamina, that was never the case early in his career. David Haye is another guy that loves to lift heavy weights, and guess what his stamina has come into question. Even Shane Mosely said it left him gassed in the later rounds of fights and he lost his fluidity.
I have to say yeah lifting heavy weights will get you that nice physique, but in boxing you're screwing yourself over.
Bodybuilding.com - Jamie Hale - Real Strength Training For Boxers!
Bodybuilding.com - Jamie Hale - Real Strength Training For Boxers: Part 2!
These are a lot of the points I was trying to make. Good post, pal.Quote:
Simply, you can access the same systems for aerobic and anaeribic conditioning with specially designed sprints, namely tabatas, as well HIITs without losing power and strength (or ending up in a catabolic state having muscle depletion, be it lean or whatev) and still get the benefits of endurance. And have the explosiveness needed of the sprinter Re: accessing fast twitch muscle fibre. Much needed. Weights are very common to just about every boxer nowadays. Just need to be done properly (and diet surrounding it). Distance running is used more these days to shed weight then endurance. Variety is the key, to create muscle confusion to avoid plateau and continue to progress through barriers, in cardio and strength.
Distance is ok, but certainly shouldn't be the mainstay of a cardio training regime. Not any more. We have just learned a lot more. They are only a small part of a routine. It's a bit of an old wives tale that it is the staple of boxers, along with only bodyweight workouts. And that heavy lifting = mass = bad. I guess I just got sucked into it, didn't I.
I think a lot of people, and even boxers beginning tend to think of the old training regimes being what is optimal for the sport. But it simply isn't.
:lifter:
I'm not entirely convinced Roy Jones never did any free weights. But if he didn't, you don't get that physique (see below) without some kind of resistance training. Most likely bodyweight stuff. Pull-ups, dips, press-ups, body weight squats, pistol squats etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
http://photos.upi.com/topics-Woods-v...68e191f1/P.jpg
Of course not, I am just writing for a logical response to facts. I am not bashing ! Stop side tracking and give a response by listing the last Pac opponent who had PHYSICAL TRAITS SUCH AS POWER, SPEED AND AGILITY ? Who had not not lost once in his last 3 fights?Quote:
Originally Posted by mnmc10Quote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing
youve been bashing pac for the longest time man! do you really think that you can change the way we think about pac? last time i checked pac fans outnumbers pac haters world wide. you and your gang can hate on pac 24/7 maybe convince some saddo forumers to join your group. you can shoo or get some pacfanatics banned in thi forum but you guys wont be able to convince the whole world that pac is just an ordinary boxer who fought old boxers who by the way does good against other fighters but not versus pac.
pac nuthuggers over praises pac as much as haters bash on him. the way i see it everytime a nuthugger mentions pacs name haters just jump on it immediately like a fish foolishly biting on a fishing hook with no bait. lol this is stupid!;D
STOP THE SMOKE SCREEN ... PAC IS REAL GOOD BUT NOT THE GREATEST ...
Floyd is a slow starter. Marquez better come out blazing with both guns in opening bell.
My prediction:
Marquez by KO inside 5
Or!
Mayweather by usual boring UD.
wow marquez by ko inside 5 no less. That is bold....i like your style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft