Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Fenster

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled. That's the point of it. It is fantasy. You can't be proved right or wrong UNLESS the fighters actually fight.

If Wlad/Vitali took on Mayweather or Pac they'd kill them. The fight could not even happen, right?

But P4P (if they were the same size) Floyd or Pac would kill them, right?

That's why the emphasis should be on skill. Would you seriously back Froch against Guzman? Come on now.. ;D

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It's still a process based on strict selection criteria though.

As for Floyd/Manny being the same size as Wlad/Vitali, truthfully I don't know who would win. How could you possibly predict what would happen?

Is Floyd jumping up to 6 ft 7 here or is Vitali coming down to 5 ft 7?

Does Floyd keep the same speed at this mythical weight? If so does Vitali keep the same power and length of jab? See how this is going, it's impossible to compare really and therefore the emphasis is on acomplishments.

Heavyweights arn't traditionally included in p4p assesments anyway but if they were I guess Wlad and David Haye would both have to be considerd. As much as I hate the Hayemaker, he is the former undisputed cruiserweight king and now heavyweight champ of the world. On a p4p scale if heavyweights were included I'd probably have him at number 10 even though I think his opposition was garbage and I believe there are 10 other fighters at heavyweight who could starch him.

The fact is, he has achieved what he has acheived fair and square and should be rated accordingly.

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;D, it's flavour of the month. Look at The Ring's list (the most "credible"), beat a "star" you dive into the rankings.

Heavyweights aren't traditionally included because the heavyweight champ is meant to RULE over all other fighters from every division. P4P is to give smaller fighters a shot at competing with the king of boxing.

You don't know who would win mythical fights between Floyd/Pac-Vitali/Wlad?

How many fights have you seen where Floyd/Pac had HUGE weight/height/reach advantages over their opponents? They beat guys their own size, they move up weights to beat guys naturally bigger than them, they don't have the luxury of entering almost EVERY fight with a huge size ADVANTAGE like the Klits. The Klits don't need to be ranked P4P because they are already the rulers.

P4P is complete nonsense. You're trying to make it make sense. It doesn't. ;)

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thing is it could logically be put out, but favorites always come into play with most people and that's where conflict builds

agree though that it's mainly built on opinion

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by hfahrenheit

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

How is Williams not p4p 10?

He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).

How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.

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Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...

And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.

And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.

No sense in arguing any of that.

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Hmm ok then so let's use YOUR logic to assess the rest of the p4p guys.

How many fights has Floyd won in the past 2 years? How many fighters has he fought in his own weight class in that time?

What about B Hop, I think he's 1-1 in that time?

Cotto? He's gone 2-1 with many thinking he should be 1-2.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Compare that with Floyd, two years off, and only fights guys two weight classes below him.

B Hop, one fight ever couple years, no interest in unifying any divisions, just wants handpicked fights for money.

Cotto, hasn't won a significant fight in a couple years.

Caballero, he's done more than Williams, really?

Donaire? Ok I'll give you him, his win over Darchinyan was immense, no doubting his pedigree.


By the way I'm not slating any of the fighters above, I think (Donaire aside) they all deserve p4p status, but Williams has proven himself repeatedly and absolutely deserves to be there.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Of those fighters how many arn't p4p?

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Yes, I think the p4p ranking could stand to be more merit based.

And you must be Winky's #1 fan, because you're giving that fight entirely too much emphasis. You're acting as if Winky wasn't a has been coming into that fight, and he was. And, Winky was one of the best 154lbs fighters of the decade--he fought Williams at 160 were he did little more than head butt Jermain Taylor.

Paul Williams does not deserve a p4p ranking based of wins over winky, phillps, knolle, quintana, and margarito. None of those guys were anywhere near the p4p list when he fought them.

Floyd and b-hop have much better resumes. Period. No comparison. And because you can't completely eliminate everything subjective, they deserve to be there because of their accomplishments--certainly not because of who they're currently fighting.

Cotto - the Clottey fight was more of a quality fight than Winky, Phillps, and Knolle.

Yahoo! actually has Williams as the #3 guy (above B-hop and Mosely and scores of others) which is completely fucked.

I don't agree with Nonito or Caballero either, although Caballero is a talent.

Williams is a talented guy who hasn't gotten a chance. I get that.

But I think how we differ is that I don't automatically give Williams a win over someone like Pavlik, just because it looks like Pavlik ducked him...YOU STILL HAVE TO BEAT THEM IN THE RING TO GET CREDIT FOR THE WIN.

It looks like you give him the credit anyways.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Just Manny Pacquiao, just not in that order.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

If he continued to fight at 147, then yes; he should be dropped from the rankings...at 135, he's still one of the p4p best.

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Could be. Not "is." And God I wish Mosely, Floyd, Pavlik, Abraham, somebody would fight this guy so all the "what if's" would go away.

My only point is that we should wait until after he gets one of these fights (and wins) before we give him p4p status.

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

It's still a process based on strict selection criteria though.

As for Floyd/Manny being the same size as Wlad/Vitali, truthfully I don't know who would win. How could you possibly predict what would happen?

Is Floyd jumping up to 6 ft 7 here or is Vitali coming down to 5 ft 7?

Does Floyd keep the same speed at this mythical weight? If so does Vitali keep the same power and length of jab? See how this is going, it's impossible to compare really and therefore the emphasis is on acomplishments.

Heavyweights arn't traditionally included in p4p assesments anyway but if they were I guess Wlad and David Haye would both have to be considerd. As much as I hate the Hayemaker, he is the former undisputed cruiserweight king and now heavyweight champ of the world. On a p4p scale if heavyweights were included I'd probably have him at number 10 even though I think his opposition was garbage and I believe there are 10 other fighters at heavyweight who could starch him.

The fact is, he has achieved what he has acheived fair and square and should be rated accordingly.

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;D, it's flavour of the month. Look at The Ring's list (the most "credible"), beat a "star" you dive into the rankings.

Heavyweights aren't traditionally included because the heavyweight champ is meant to RULE over all other fighters from every division. P4P is to give smaller fighters a shot at competing with the king of boxing.

You don't know who would win mythical fights between Floyd/Pac-Vitali/Wlad?

How many fights have you seen where Floyd/Pac had HUGE weight/height/reach advantages over their opponents? They beat guys their own size, they move up weights to beat guys naturally bigger than them, they don't have the luxury of entering almost EVERY fight with a huge size ADVANTAGE like the Klits. The Klits don't need to be ranked P4P because they are already the rulers.

P4P is complete nonsense. You're trying to make it make sense. It doesn't. ;)

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thing is it could logically be put out, but favorites always come into play with most people and that's where conflict builds

agree though that it's mainly built on opinion

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Concentrate son and you''ll always realise Fenster is right. ;)

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by Fenster

;D, it's flavour of the month. Look at The Ring's list (the most "credible"), beat a "star" you dive into the rankings.

Heavyweights aren't traditionally included because the heavyweight champ is meant to RULE over all other fighters from every division. P4P is to give smaller fighters a shot at competing with the king of boxing.

You don't know who would win mythical fights between Floyd/Pac-Vitali/Wlad?

How many fights have you seen where Floyd/Pac had HUGE weight/height/reach advantages over their opponents? They beat guys their own size, they move up weights to beat guys naturally bigger than them, they don't have the luxury of entering almost EVERY fight with a huge size ADVANTAGE like the Klits. The Klits don't need to be ranked P4P because they are already the rulers.

P4P is complete nonsense. You're trying to make it make sense. It doesn't. ;)

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thing is it could logically be put out, but favorites always come into play with most people and that's where conflict builds

agree though that it's mainly built on opinion

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Concentrate son and you''ll always realise Fenster is right. ;)

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shut the fuck up and relish the fact that i actually agree with you for once hahaha ;D

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Originally Posted by hfahrenheit

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by hfahrenheit

Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...

And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.

And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.

No sense in arguing any of that.

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Hmm ok then so let's use YOUR logic to assess the rest of the p4p guys.

How many fights has Floyd won in the past 2 years? How many fighters has he fought in his own weight class in that time?

What about B Hop, I think he's 1-1 in that time?

Cotto? He's gone 2-1 with many thinking he should be 1-2.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Compare that with Floyd, two years off, and only fights guys two weight classes below him.

B Hop, one fight ever couple years, no interest in unifying any divisions, just wants handpicked fights for money.

Cotto, hasn't won a significant fight in a couple years.

Caballero, he's done more than Williams, really?

Donaire? Ok I'll give you him, his win over Darchinyan was immense, no doubting his pedigree.


By the way I'm not slating any of the fighters above, I think (Donaire aside) they all deserve p4p status, but Williams has proven himself repeatedly and absolutely deserves to be there.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Of those fighters how many arn't p4p?

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Yes, I think the p4p ranking could stand to be more merit based.

And you must be Winky's #1 fan, because you're giving that fight entirely too much emphasis. You're acting as if Winky wasn't a has been coming into that fight, and he was. And, Winky was one of the best 154lbs fighters of the decade--he fought Williams at 160 were he did little more than head butt Jermain Taylor.

Paul Williams does not deserve a p4p ranking based of wins over winky, phillps, knolle, quintana, and margarito. None of those guys were anywhere near the p4p list when he fought them.

Floyd and b-hop have much better resumes. Period. No comparison. And because you can't completely eliminate everything subjective, they deserve to be there because of their accomplishments--certainly not because of who they're currently fighting.

Cotto - the Clottey fight was more of a quality fight than Winky, Phillps, and Knolle.

Yahoo! actually has Williams as the #3 guy (above B-hop and Mosely and scores of others) which is completely fucked.

I don't agree with Nonito or Caballero either, although Caballero is a talent.

Williams is a talented guy who hasn't gotten a chance. I get that.

But I think how we differ is that I don't automatically give Williams a win over someone like Pavlik, just because it looks like Pavlik ducked him...YOU STILL HAVE TO BEAT THEM IN THE RING TO GET CREDIT FOR THE WIN.

It looks like you give him the credit anyways.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Just Manny Pacquiao, just not in that order.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

If he continued to fight at 147, then yes; he should be dropped from the rankings...at 135, he's still one of the p4p best.

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Could be. Not "is." And God I wish Mosely, Floyd, Pavlik, Abraham, somebody would fight this guy so all the "what if's" would go away.

My only point is that we should wait until after he gets one of these fights (and wins) before we give him p4p status.

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Margarito was a top 10 p4p guy and Williams beat him. He beat Winky better than ANY man has EVER beaten him. Ok so Winky was past it according to you but you can't say that based on his ring performances. He performed much better than Kelly Pavlik did against B Hop, some people thinking that fight was razor close. Williams didn't just beat him, he dominated him.

Guys like Quintana and Phillips may not be impressive to you but they are solid fighters. Do you disagree that Calderon should have been in the top p4p at any time? He beat some guy I've never heard of at 106 lbs who I guarantee wasn't as good as Margarito, then moved up and beat Hugo Cazares to win at light flyweight. Result, straight into the top 10 p4p.

Meanwhile Williams beat Margarito to win a world title at 147, certainly better than the anonymous 106 lb man, then moved up and beat Verno Phillips for a 154 lb belt, certainly appox equal to Cazares then moved up AGAIN and dominated a possible future Hall of Famer, I guess the equivilent of Calderon moving up again and beating Rapheal Marquez at super flyweight or something.

But he's not p4p whereas Calderon is?

You're talking out of your anus ;D

Who had Margarito P4P top ten when Williams beat him?

And if you just look at each case I think you'd see that Calderon moving all the way up to 122 would be much more impressive, Williams is more just a freak of nature. Actually now that I read that again that's a horrible comparison.

Not that I disagree with Williams being in the bottom half.

After he beats Martinez he should be, what, number 1?

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Who had Margarito P4P top ten when Williams beat him?

And if you just look at each case I think you'd see that Calderon moving all the way up to 122 would be much more impressive, Williams is more just a freak of nature. Actually now that I read that again that's a horrible comparison.

Not that I disagree with Williams being in the bottom half.

After he beats Martinez he should be, what, number 1?

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Like Vic Darchinyan Margarito crashed the top 5 p4p when he smoked Miguel Cotto AFTER Williams had alreadt beaten him.

In Darchinyan's case his post Donaire loss successes (wins over Mijares and Arce) were directly credited to Donaire who suddenly found himself propelled into the p4p on the back of Darchinyan's coat tails.

How does this work for the little guys but not for Williams?

Williams has won 3 world titles in two weight classes and has beaten a future hall of famer in another weight class. Donaire has never fought a world class fighter other than Darchinyan and not a single other world champ past or present is on his resume.

Who else in boxing has done so much recently ~(as Wiliams across 3 divisions) and isn't in the p4p?

1)I don't disagree with you about Williams, 2)that wasn't what you were saying and really wasn't an answer to my question ;D and, 3)Darchinyan's post Donaire wins don't have asterisks by them.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Who had Margarito P4P top ten when Williams beat him?

And if you just look at each case I think you'd see that Calderon moving all the way up to 122 would be much more impressive, Williams is more just a freak of nature. Actually now that I read that again that's a horrible comparison.

Not that I disagree with Williams being in the bottom half.

After he beats Martinez he should be, what, number 1?

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So you discriminate against a fighter's achievements because he is tall? What about Tommy Hearns, does his conquering of many weight classes not mean much either?

Every fighter has strengths and assets and wins fights accordingly.

If Williams can win in 3 weights from 147 to 160 a difference of 13 lbs why is that less impressive than Calderon who has moved up a whopping 3lbs in his career?

Williams weighs around 40 percent more than Calderon yet in terms of rising through the weight classes has gone 400 percent further, 13 lbs compared to 3lb.

He's done more than Calderon for sure, any sane man should be able to see this.

LOL he's beaten Margarito and an old Winky, you could argue he's done more than Calderon but its far from laughable. I don't love Calderon's resume either but lets not go nuts about Williams' yet just cause he's moved up. Not at least until he beats the dreaded Sergio Martinez.

Calderon would have to have moved up from 105 to 122 for that comparison to be valid and Williams has gone from 147 to 160. Williams was also a gigantic 147 pounder and is still a big middleweight while Calderon wasn't even big for 105 (is anybody I guess you could say) and would be laughably tiny at 122. Its not a great comparison.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

LOL he's beaten Margarito and an old Winky, you could argue he's done more than Calderon but its far from laughable. I don't love Calderon's resume either but lets not go nuts about Williams' yet just cause he's moved up. Not at least until he beats the dreaded Sergio Martinez.

Calderon would have to have moved up from 105 to 122 for that comparison to be valid and Williams has gone from 147 to 160. Williams was also a gigantic 147 pounder and is still a big middleweight while Calderon wasn't even big for 105 (is anybody I guess you could say) and would be laughably tiny at 122. Its not a great comparison.

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No three weight classes for Calderon would be from 104 to 112 lbs not 122.

I said about him beating R Marquez at superfly (where Marquez started out) not at super bantam.

I dont think Calderons claim to p4p is laughable at all, he deserved his spot imo, although his performances against Mayo may have dropped him.

But Williams absolutely deserves a p4p spot.

It seems people on here would rather Juan Guzman, who always pulls out of his big fights rather than face them should be ahead of Williams, who actually fights and BEATS his opponents.

It's a ridiculous arguement. Williams beat Margarito at 147, Phillips at 154 and Winky at 160.

He's in great current form and is now challenging Martinez at 154 again.

How does Guzman deserve to be ahead of him when he pulled out of his fight with Campbell at 24 hours notice?

OK I guess I didn't read your post that carefully ;D I think you would agree though that Williams has the frame to move up in divisions more than some people, for example Calderon. I also wouldn't rule out him fighting at 112 one of these days.

Other than that I'm not sure what were arguing about. I would probably have Williams in the bottom half of P4P.

FWIW I'm not making any of those arguments, I used to be a huge fan of Guzman but he's a waste.

I thought Martinez was at 160?

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

OK I guess I didn't read your post that carefully ;D I think you would agree though that Williams has the frame to move up in divisions more than some people, for example Calderon. I also wouldn't rule out him fighting at 112 one of these days.

Other than that I'm not sure what were arguing about. I would probably have Williams in the bottom half of P4P.

FWIW I'm not making any of those arguments, I used to be a huge fan of Guzman but he's a waste.

I thought Martinez was at 160?

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Ah glad we almost agree. Yes I agree Williams has the frame but that in itself is impressive. It's not like he has a massive weight advantage going into these fights like Valuev, he manages to weight the same as the guys he's fighting despite being several inches taller than some, that's impressive and deserves credit rather than taking away credit from him.

Any fighter who can move through 3 weight classes and fight the best in those weight classes is p4p worthy imo regardless of how tall he is, providing he doesnt have a huge weight advantage like Nikolay Valuev.

Not sure what the weight is for the Martinez fight, I thought it was 154 but no idea.

By the way, you'll be glad to know I did moan a LOT when Martinez was on HBO fighting Bunema and Kellerman and Merchant were on his nutsacks telling us he was a p4p star and a great who should be fighting the mega fights.

I remember posting something along the lines of 'IF YOU THOUGHT HE WAS A GREAT AND A P4P STAR WHY HAVE YOU NEVER EVER ONCE MENTIONED HIM BEFORE IN HBO BROADCASTS EVER YOU CUUNNNNNTS!!!'

I think its at 160. From now on I'm definitely going to be obsessed with Sergio Martinez, I will do my best Bilbo impersonation.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Ah FINALLY somebody else agrees with on this!. Nonito has done NOTHING to merit p4p status, he's beaten a guy in Darchinyan who is probably on the level of a Humberto Soto, a guy that Juan Guzman beat with ease.

Comparing the rest of Guzman's career to Donaires there is no comparison, Donaire has fought NOBODY!!! He almost got beat last time out by a 13-3-1 club fighter.

He's not even top 20 p4p, and will fall faster than you can say 'Mijares' when he actually fights somebody half decent.

As Johnny Perez has now beaten the man who beat the man who the man beat surely he should be p4p top 5 now right?

It's fucking ludicrous and I will tell you why this happens. It's positive discrimination in which the Ring Magazine openly gives benefits to the midgets in their p4p rankings.......

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what a truly fuking awful post this is... darchinyan is on the level of humberto soto? what the hell are you talking about?

how many donaire/darchinyan fights have you seen? do you even follow these divisions?

lmao at rafael concepcion almost beating donaire. the dude came in with a significant weight advantage and donaire injured his hand in that fight. and donaire still won convincingly.

as for the thread, no i don't believe donaire is top 10 p4p.

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Ah FINALLY somebody else agrees with on this!. Nonito has done NOTHING to merit p4p status, he's beaten a guy in Darchinyan who is probably on the level of a Humberto Soto, a guy that Juan Guzman beat with ease.

Comparing the rest of Guzman's career to Donaires there is no comparison, Donaire has fought NOBODY!!! He almost got beat last time out by a 13-3-1 club fighter.

He's not even top 20 p4p, and will fall faster than you can say 'Mijares' when he actually fights somebody half decent.

As Johnny Perez has now beaten the man who beat the man who the man beat surely he should be p4p top 5 now right?

It's fucking ludicrous and I will tell you why this happens. It's positive discrimination in which the Ring Magazine openly gives benefits to the midgets in their p4p rankings.......

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what a truly fuking awful post this is... darchinyan is on the level of humberto soto? what the hell are you talking about?

how many donaire/darchinyan fights have you seen? do you even follow these divisions?

lmao at rafael concepcion almost beating donaire. the dude came in with a significant weight advantage and donaire injured his hand in that fight. and donaire still won convincingly.

as for the thread, no i don't believe donaire is top 10 p4p.

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So you are suggesting Darchinyan is significantly better than Humberto Soto?

I disagree, as I suspect will most....

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by mad_takamura

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

umm yea they would, David Haye called out both Klitschkos and ran like a bitch for his dear life, Amir Khan called out everyone at 140 and is now scheduled to fight Salita, Mayweather said he would have dropped the Marquez fight, that he would pay Marquez to step down to fight Pacquiao, did that happen? no, nice try though, next

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i applaud you. are you born with gamma rays?
it's easy to say a fighter avoided that, avoided who, but beyond that there's a lot of reasons. like running away especially after being challenged.now that's shameful.
anyway i know our arguments will definitely get redundant. all i would say is wait for those fights to happen, it will definitely come. if those fights will happen who do you think will be in a losing end? me or you? coz now donaire's going to be handled by top rank. those fights will come by popular demand. it's the rule of money.

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did your dad tell you that as well? well my dad works in a looney bin and the schizophrenics told him that Donaire is gonna be taking on Hulk Hogan and Bugs Bunny in a triple threat hopscotch match.... :rolleyes:

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immature reply..at least i became serious at the end of my post and you kept with your childish b.s.