-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
I was just making a comment on the "sectarian violence" which MAINLY occurs with the Sunni and Shia but others are involved.
My problem is with all kinds of violence, a Christian martyr doesn't KILL anyone, they just accept their own fate if that single idea was common in Islam then the world would be a better place. The IRA vs Northern Ireland was more a political fight than religious.
I know quite a few muslims and they may feel the same as your friends BUT they don't have a stage or an audience. As for me vs the "Turbo Christians" I don't have an audience or stage either....unless you know anyone
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
The Jewish fortunes are behind most of our largest businesses I imagine America is the same and most of the owners live here and are welcome.
The largest businesses of the Western world are ran on energy and need a foothold in the East anyway, what better way for the west to infiltrate the East but to hand over to their richest merchants land from the occupiers?
These are smart men who play with normal peoples emotional states for larger reasons that eventually pay off for themselves and their ways; the whole thing went exactly to their plan.
Now some of the surrounding areas are kicking up over control of that old power source that indirectly fuels the world markets, be interesting if the surrounding countries and states get a majority of the % in oil control above Americas and see who sides with who and who ends up with their hand firmly on the business worlds controls.
Or will nth Korea, China and Iran divide us all up.
The old "Jewish Fortunes" argument. Wow. You are so misinformed. They were handed the foundation of a perfectly viable state. The only "settlements" that would remain were basically suburbs of Jerusalem. It wasn't perfect, but it was a great start, and the PA and Arafat spit in the face of everyone trying to find a peaceful solution.
But Jews control the money and make passover matzo with the blood of Arab children, right, Mr Farakan?? Yeah, Jewish money has more influence than Arab oil fortunes. For sure.
The Palestinians have gotten the shaft, for sure, but they have been screwed and exploited by their Arab brothers at every opportunity. Fact. Have the Israelis handled every situation perfectly? No. But Arab leadership is just as responsible for their hardship. Fact. Bottom line.
Andre, you are talking the same anti-semitic myths that have been the basis for Jew-hating for 1000 years. Classic.
Israel has never tried to find a peaceful solution to the problem, quite the opposite in fact. No Israeli government is capable of making any kind of good-faith peace offer as the balance of power in Israel is always held by extremist religious parties who have the power to collapse any government at any time. Currently Netanyahu can't even order a freeze on settlement building on Palestinian land because if he does it's the end of his government.
Wrong. Barak and Rabin both tried to find peaceful solutions. Labour governments have be formed without getting in bed with Shas or the other right wing parties. Both of those PMs have supported two state solutions. The other side doesn't believe Israel should exist as a a state at all. Yes, Bibi is dependent on far right to keep his government together, but a signficant reason why Bibi was able to draw together a coalition is that so many Israeli peaceniks jumped ship because it became clear that the other side wasn't interested in peace.
I've lived there. I've broken bread with both ultra-orthodox Jews and ordinary Palestinians. The settlements are not the real issue. It's all about Jerusalem's sovereignty, "the right of return", and both indirectly and directly, the right of Israel to exist at all. I have a good friend who is an Israeli-Arab. Israel could dismantle every settlement, even the ones that are Jerusalem suburbs at this point. Without giving back full sovereignty of the entire old city of Jersusalem and giving "right of return" the Palestinians have no interest in a peaceful solution. The things Israel would have to give the Palestinians at this point would be the first step of the end of Israel.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
This is one of those topics, much like the ever-present left-right debates, in which everyone has already made up their minds about their position and are essentially immoveable on it.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Yes and there will still be about 8 more pages. Usually I just post once or twice within the first couple pages and stand back and watch in fascination at the ability of those that are able to talk to a wall for fifteen pages but here I didn't even do that.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
I'm not going to get into this debate. But I do notice 1 thing though is that whenever 1 criticizes Israel's actions, the anti-semitic card is used quite a lot to try and stifle any sort of criticism or debate.
Now carry on.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I'm not going to get into this debate. But I do notice 1 thing though is that whenever 1 criticizes Israel's actions, the anti-semitic card is used quite a lot to try and stifle any sort of criticism or debate.
Now carry on.
We know your type, you're just an anti- anti semantic card player! :bag:
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
The old "Jewish Fortunes" argument. Wow. You are so misinformed. They were handed the foundation of a perfectly viable state. The only "settlements" that would remain were basically suburbs of Jerusalem. It wasn't perfect, but it was a great start, and the PA and Arafat spit in the face of everyone trying to find a peaceful solution.
But Jews control the money and make passover matzo with the blood of Arab children, right, Mr Farakan?? Yeah, Jewish money has more influence than Arab oil fortunes. For sure.
The Palestinians have gotten the shaft, for sure, but they have been screwed and exploited by their Arab brothers at every opportunity. Fact. Have the Israelis handled every situation perfectly? No. But Arab leadership is just as responsible for their hardship. Fact. Bottom line.
Andre, you are talking the same anti-semitic myths that have been the basis for Jew-hating for 1000 years. Classic.
Israel has never tried to find a peaceful solution to the problem, quite the opposite in fact. No Israeli government is capable of making any kind of good-faith peace offer as the balance of power in Israel is always held by extremist religious parties who have the power to collapse any government at any time. Currently Netanyahu can't even order a freeze on settlement building on Palestinian land because if he does it's the end of his government.
Wrong. Barak and Rabin both tried to find peaceful solutions. Labour governments have be formed without getting in bed with Shas or the other right wing parties. Both of those PMs have supported two state solutions. The other side doesn't believe Israel should exist as a a state at all. Yes, Bibi is dependent on far right to keep his government together, but a signficant reason why Bibi was able to draw together a coalition is that so many Israeli peaceniks jumped ship because it became clear that the other side wasn't interested in peace.
I've lived there. I've broken bread with both ultra-orthodox Jews and ordinary Palestinians. The settlements are not the real issue. It's all about Jerusalem's sovereignty, "the right of return", and both indirectly and directly, the right of Israel to exist at all. I have a good friend who is an Israeli-Arab. Israel could dismantle every settlement, even the ones that are Jerusalem suburbs at this point. Without giving back full sovereignty of the entire old city of Jersusalem and giving "right of return" the Palestinians have no interest in a peaceful solution. The things Israel would have to give the Palestinians at this point would be the first step of the end of Israel.
Yeah, and Rabin got murdered.... by an ultra orthodox member of one of the ultra orthodox circle... ironic indeed and to me, a good prove that, just like Kirklang said, the Ultra Orthodox do not want peace.
Also, we all know that the wall of Lament and Jerusalem thing is THE main issue. HOWEVER, the colonies are a big big deal because the Palestinians feel it is a forced colonization of their land... which is. These colonizations are also, if you look carefully, on every damn peace route sheet that has been traced, the very first step to peace. Not the main core but one of the very very important points indeed. It is also very phony to say that Palestinians do not want peace, most of them want, at some point I recall a cease fire where the Hamas and the Islamist Jyhad totally stopped to fire till... Israel started to murder some of their members again, which did just spiral out violence once more.
These peoples are humans like anybody, they got their land stolen and want it back, if their land wouldn'thave been stolen, violence would never ever spiral out of control like today, it is false to only claim "they don't want peace" without looking to how it did all happen. I can suggest you a few books about the creation of Israel and the Mossad, with things that jewish legends such as David Ben Gourion, Meir Amit or Rafa Eitan said about these things and the murders they did carry for the cause, perhaps then you would not see all pink for Israel.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
The old "Jewish Fortunes" argument. Wow. You are so misinformed. They were handed the foundation of a perfectly viable state. The only "settlements" that would remain were basically suburbs of Jerusalem. It wasn't perfect, but it was a great start, and the PA and Arafat spit in the face of everyone trying to find a peaceful solution.
But Jews control the money and make passover matzo with the blood of Arab children, right, Mr Farakan?? Yeah, Jewish money has more influence than Arab oil fortunes. For sure.
The Palestinians have gotten the shaft, for sure, but they have been screwed and exploited by their Arab brothers at every opportunity. Fact. Have the Israelis handled every situation perfectly? No. But Arab leadership is just as responsible for their hardship. Fact. Bottom line.
Andre, you are talking the same anti-semitic myths that have been the basis for Jew-hating for 1000 years. Classic.
Israel has never tried to find a peaceful solution to the problem, quite the opposite in fact. No Israeli government is capable of making any kind of good-faith peace offer as the balance of power in Israel is always held by extremist religious parties who have the power to collapse any government at any time. Currently Netanyahu can't even order a freeze on settlement building on Palestinian land because if he does it's the end of his government.
Wrong. Barak and Rabin both tried to find peaceful solutions. Labour governments have be formed without getting in bed with Shas or the other right wing parties. Both of those PMs have supported two state solutions. The other side doesn't believe Israel should exist as a a state at all. Yes, Bibi is dependent on far right to keep his government together, but a signficant reason why Bibi was able to draw together a coalition is that so many Israeli peaceniks jumped ship because it became clear that the other side wasn't interested in peace.
I've lived there. I've broken bread with both ultra-orthodox Jews and ordinary Palestinians. The settlements are not the real issue. It's all about Jerusalem's sovereignty, "the right of return", and both indirectly and directly, the right of Israel to exist at all. I have a good friend who is an Israeli-Arab. Israel could dismantle every settlement, even the ones that are Jerusalem suburbs at this point. Without giving back full sovereignty of the entire old city of Jersusalem and giving "right of return" the Palestinians have no interest in a peaceful solution. The things Israel would have to give the Palestinians at this point would be the first step of the end of Israel.
Barak couldn't even make a public offer at Camp David because his government would have collapsed overnight back in Israel if he had done. After the talks collapsed he claimed he'd made a peace offer but in reality he didn't, and that's according to the Clinton officials who were there at the time. Rabin was shot by a Jewish extremist before he could make any peace offer but any offer would have collapsed his government too. The people who hold the balance of power in Israeli politics are people who believe the whole of the West Bank is Israeli and their holy book gives them the right to take it back and drive the Palestinians into Jordan. Add on guys like Lieberman who are outright fascists and you have a bloc that can veto any kind of peace move. If you honestly beleive the settlemets -- Israel building on the 22% of historic Palestine that they etnically cleansed the Palestinians into -- aren't an obstacle to any settlement then there's nothing I can say. Israel have done everything they can to block any kind of peaceful settlement over the years.
In the long run unless Israel can make a viable good-faith peace offer they're fucked, as some of their politicians are now realising. But because the nutjobs have a veto over any peace plan they're destined to face a South Africa-like situation and eventually be subsumed in a one-state solution which will be majority Palestinian.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Israel has never tried to find a peaceful solution to the problem, quite the opposite in fact. No Israeli government is capable of making any kind of good-faith peace offer as the balance of power in Israel is always held by extremist religious parties who have the power to collapse any government at any time. Currently Netanyahu can't even order a freeze on settlement building on Palestinian land because if he does it's the end of his government.
Wrong. Barak and Rabin both tried to find peaceful solutions. Labour governments have be formed without getting in bed with Shas or the other right wing parties. Both of those PMs have supported two state solutions. The other side doesn't believe Israel should exist as a a state at all. Yes, Bibi is dependent on far right to keep his government together, but a signficant reason why Bibi was able to draw together a coalition is that so many Israeli peaceniks jumped ship because it became clear that the other side wasn't interested in peace.
I've lived there. I've broken bread with both ultra-orthodox Jews and ordinary Palestinians. The settlements are not the real issue. It's all about Jerusalem's sovereignty, "the right of return", and both indirectly and directly, the right of Israel to exist at all. I have a good friend who is an Israeli-Arab. Israel could dismantle every settlement, even the ones that are Jerusalem suburbs at this point. Without giving back full sovereignty of the entire old city of Jersusalem and giving "right of return" the Palestinians have no interest in a peaceful solution. The things Israel would have to give the Palestinians at this point would be the first step of the end of Israel.
Barak couldn't even make a public offer at Camp David because his government would have collapsed overnight back in Israel if he had done. After the talks collapsed he claimed he'd made a peace offer but in reality he didn't, and that's according to the Clinton officials who were there at the time. Rabin was shot by a Jewish extremist before he could make any peace offer but any offer would have collapsed his government too. The people who hold the balance of power in Israeli politics are people who believe the whole of the West Bank is Israeli and their holy book gives them the right to take it back and drive the Palestinians into Jordan. Add on guys like Lieberman who are outright fascists and you have a bloc that can veto any kind of peace move. If you honestly beleive the settlemets -- Israel building on the 22% of historic Palestine that they etnically cleansed the Palestinians into -- aren't an obstacle to any settlement then there's nothing I can say. Israel have done everything they can to block any kind of peaceful settlement over the years.
In the long run unless Israel can make a viable good-faith peace offer they're fucked, as some of their politicians are now realising. But because the nutjobs have a veto over any peace plan they're destined to face a South Africa-like situation and eventually be subsumed in a one-state solution which will be majority Palestinian.
No. There will be no peace until we all bow down and say "allah akbar" or we do some things that most westerners can't justify in their soft, progressive minds. Your post is factually incorrect. There is no point going on with this. You have no idea what you are talking about, even more than usual.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Wrong. Barak and Rabin both tried to find peaceful solutions. Labour governments have be formed without getting in bed with Shas or the other right wing parties. Both of those PMs have supported two state solutions. The other side doesn't believe Israel should exist as a a state at all. Yes, Bibi is dependent on far right to keep his government together, but a signficant reason why Bibi was able to draw together a coalition is that so many Israeli peaceniks jumped ship because it became clear that the other side wasn't interested in peace.
I've lived there. I've broken bread with both ultra-orthodox Jews and ordinary Palestinians. The settlements are not the real issue. It's all about Jerusalem's sovereignty, "the right of return", and both indirectly and directly, the right of Israel to exist at all. I have a good friend who is an Israeli-Arab. Israel could dismantle every settlement, even the ones that are Jerusalem suburbs at this point. Without giving back full sovereignty of the entire old city of Jersusalem and giving "right of return" the Palestinians have no interest in a peaceful solution. The things Israel would have to give the Palestinians at this point would be the first step of the end of Israel.
Barak couldn't even make a public offer at Camp David because his government would have collapsed overnight back in Israel if he had done. After the talks collapsed he claimed he'd made a peace offer but in reality he didn't, and that's according to the Clinton officials who were there at the time. Rabin was shot by a Jewish extremist before he could make any peace offer but any offer would have collapsed his government too. The people who hold the balance of power in Israeli politics are people who believe the whole of the West Bank is Israeli and their holy book gives them the right to take it back and drive the Palestinians into Jordan. Add on guys like Lieberman who are outright fascists and you have a bloc that can veto any kind of peace move. If you honestly beleive the settlemets -- Israel building on the 22% of historic Palestine that they etnically cleansed the Palestinians into -- aren't an obstacle to any settlement then there's nothing I can say. Israel have done everything they can to block any kind of peaceful settlement over the years.
In the long run unless Israel can make a viable good-faith peace offer they're fucked, as some of their politicians are now realising. But because the nutjobs have a veto over any peace plan they're destined to face a South Africa-like situation and eventually be subsumed in a one-state solution which will be majority Palestinian.
No. There will be no peace until we all bow down and say "allah akbar" or we do some things that most westerners can't justify in their soft, progressive minds. Your post is factually incorrect. There is no point going on with this. You have no idea what you are talking about, even more than usual.
Actually, his argumentation is well articulated and deployed. You, on the other hands, play the "I know it all, you don't" without giving a single well articulated fact or argument. I just want to remind you that everybody in Palestine did agree to recognize the State of Israel if they did stop their political murders in the Gaza Stripe, go back to the pre 1967 boundaries and stop the colonies, which every government of Israel failed till this very day. Every government at the knesset is too indirectly controlled by the ultra orthodox and the problem resides precisely here.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
I happen to think Kirkland and Nameless have made some very good points in this thread. To dismiss their arguments and say they don't know what they are talking about is a tad blinkered. They obviously do know what they are talking about having taken the time to become aquainted with the history of the region. The facts are out there for anybody to see. Though you do have to move beyond the god awful US media before you come to anything halfway impartial.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
You mean that there is some sort of media "bias"??!?!?!?
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
You mean that there is some sort of media "bias"??!?!?!?
One word: FoxNews.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
You mean that there is some sort of media "bias"??!?!?!?
The US media coverage of the Israel/Palestine conflict is atrocious. I read somewhere that a sizeable portion of the US population think that it is the Palestinians that are occupying Israeli land illegally. Where does that kind of thinking come from? Admittedly the media doesn't quite bring it down to that level, but this kind of thinking doesn't come out of nowhere.
Like it or not, the US media has been manipulated in the most horrible way by pro Israel lobbyists. You just need to take a look at the New York Times to see how truth and factual reporting often go by the wayside. Or else important news is simply not reported at all! Even the BBC has been found to be biased in favour of the Israeli's, but at least they have the gall to investigate the nature of this reporting themselves and admit that even they get it wrong sometimes.
Media Standards Trust | BBC Report on impartiality of BBC coverage of the Israeli Palestinian conflict
The US media has none of this ability to face up to reality nor self correct. They are completely impartial all the way.
With the kind of media you absorb everyday, it is no wonder that you have the kind of perspective that you do on the issue.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Wrong. Barak and Rabin both tried to find peaceful solutions. Labour governments have be formed without getting in bed with Shas or the other right wing parties. Both of those PMs have supported two state solutions. The other side doesn't believe Israel should exist as a a state at all. Yes, Bibi is dependent on far right to keep his government together, but a signficant reason why Bibi was able to draw together a coalition is that so many Israeli peaceniks jumped ship because it became clear that the other side wasn't interested in peace.
I've lived there. I've broken bread with both ultra-orthodox Jews and ordinary Palestinians. The settlements are not the real issue. It's all about Jerusalem's sovereignty, "the right of return", and both indirectly and directly, the right of Israel to exist at all. I have a good friend who is an Israeli-Arab. Israel could dismantle every settlement, even the ones that are Jerusalem suburbs at this point. Without giving back full sovereignty of the entire old city of Jersusalem and giving "right of return" the Palestinians have no interest in a peaceful solution. The things Israel would have to give the Palestinians at this point would be the first step of the end of Israel.
Barak couldn't even make a public offer at Camp David because his government would have collapsed overnight back in Israel if he had done. After the talks collapsed he claimed he'd made a peace offer but in reality he didn't, and that's according to the Clinton officials who were there at the time. Rabin was shot by a Jewish extremist before he could make any peace offer but any offer would have collapsed his government too. The people who hold the balance of power in Israeli politics are people who believe the whole of the West Bank is Israeli and their holy book gives them the right to take it back and drive the Palestinians into Jordan. Add on guys like Lieberman who are outright fascists and you have a bloc that can veto any kind of peace move. If you honestly beleive the settlemets -- Israel building on the 22% of historic Palestine that they etnically cleansed the Palestinians into -- aren't an obstacle to any settlement then there's nothing I can say. Israel have done everything they can to block any kind of peaceful settlement over the years.
In the long run unless Israel can make a viable good-faith peace offer they're fucked, as some of their politicians are now realising. But because the nutjobs have a veto over any peace plan they're destined to face a South Africa-like situation and eventually be subsumed in a one-state solution which will be majority Palestinian.
No. There will be no peace until we all bow down and say "allah akbar" or we do some things that most westerners can't justify in their soft, progressive minds. Your post is factually incorrect. There is no point going on with this. You have no idea what you are talking about, even more than usual.
I'm Kirkland Laing, I'm always right about everything. Exactly what is it that I have Written that you think is incorrect, hmmm?
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Nameless, MSNBC is just the same as FoxNews only it's the other end of the spectrum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
You mean that there is some sort of media "bias"??!?!?!?
The US media coverage of the Israel/Palestine conflict is atrocious. I read somewhere that a sizeable portion of the US population think that it is the Palestinians that are occupying Israeli land illegally. Where does that kind of thinking come from? Admittedly the media doesn't quite bring it down to that level, but this kind of thinking doesn't come out of nowhere.
Like it or not, the US media has been manipulated in the most horrible way by pro Israel lobbyists. You just need to take a look at the New York Times to see how truth and factual reporting often go by the wayside. Or else important news is simply not reported at all! Even the BBC has been found to be biased in favour of the Israeli's, but at least they have the gall to investigate the nature of this reporting themselves and admit that even they get it wrong sometimes.
Media Standards Trust | BBC Report on impartiality of BBC coverage of the Israeli Palestinian conflict
The US media has none of this ability to face up to reality nor self correct. They are completely impartial all the way.
With the kind of media you absorb everyday, it is no wonder that you have the kind of perspective that you do on the issue.
So if we agree that there is some sort of "bias" on the topic of Israel vs Palestine then we can figure that on other issues there are biases about other subjects as well.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
Nameless, MSNBC is just the same as FoxNews only it's the other end of the spectrum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
You mean that there is some sort of media "bias"??!?!?!?
The US media coverage of the Israel/Palestine conflict is atrocious. I read somewhere that a sizeable portion of the US population think that it is the Palestinians that are occupying Israeli land illegally. Where does that kind of thinking come from? Admittedly the media doesn't quite bring it down to that level, but this kind of thinking doesn't come out of nowhere.
Like it or not, the US media has been manipulated in the most horrible way by pro Israel lobbyists. You just need to take a look at the New York Times to see how truth and factual reporting often go by the wayside. Or else important news is simply not reported at all! Even the BBC has been found to be biased in favour of the Israeli's, but at least they have the gall to investigate the nature of this reporting themselves and admit that even they get it wrong sometimes.
Media Standards Trust | BBC Report on impartiality of BBC coverage of the Israeli Palestinian conflict
The US media has none of this ability to face up to reality nor self correct. They are completely impartial all the way.
With the kind of media you absorb everyday, it is no wonder that you have the kind of perspective that you do on the issue.
So if we agree that there is some sort of "bias" on the topic of Israel vs Palestine then we can figure that on other issues there are biases about other subjects as well.
I think we can agree that bias exists and that there is bias on other issues too.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
I was just making a comment on the "sectarian violence" which MAINLY occurs with the Sunni and Shia but others are involved.
What like Western Armed Forces?? Because I'd very much like you to find me another branch of Islamic religious thought that is involved in this conflict. If it's religion you are talking about then it doesn't involve Kurds who are generally Shia.
My problem is with all kinds of violence, a Christian martyr doesn't KILL anyone, they just accept their own fate if that single idea was common in Islam then the world would be a better place. The IRA vs Northern Ireland was more a political fight than religious.
That single idea is common in Islam, but it isn't common among terrorists. That idea is common among Christianity, but it isn't among Loyalists or Republicans who die murdering people. How hard is this? Btw it wasn't the 'IRA vs Northern Ireland', the issue was far more complex than that. Northern Ireland is mixed with Catholics & Protestants. There was terrorism from BOTH sides. Both IRA (Republicans) & groups like the UDA (Loyalists). Do you really think the issue with Sunnis & Shias in Iraq isn't political. You're right it has nothing to do with Saddam's subjugation of the Shia majority. Nope, that's TOTALLY different from Northern Ireland.
I know quite a few muslims and they may feel the same as your friends BUT they don't have a stage or an audience. As for me vs the "Turbo Christians" I don't have an audience or stage either....unless you know anyone
You know quite a few Muslims, but you've never asked their opinion on this issue you care so much about?? Lyle, are they friends or are they simply people who serve you food at a restaraunt? Anyway let me understand this, you accept that most Muslims are against it, but don't have the means to show it. Who should? Tell me which Muslims with an audience you'd like to see condemning it?
Once again, notes above Lyle ;)
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
OK Jaz, thanks for your "notes" and all but since you would rather be a condescending asshole than debate this topic like an educated man, I'm going to just give up on this thread.
I don't know what you think about me personally but to assume that I have no muslim friends and to insult me like that....that's uncalled for.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
To be honest mate;
i'd like to see Muslims openly marching in the streets with placards with their Mullahs and priests or whatever, in the lead 'Saying terrorists get out of our Religion! go make your own one, you murder ,we dont. Stop hiding amongst us, get out. You are against the compassion of Allah and his people.
I'd like to Christians marching too saying we are your brothers and sisters sorry we have killed some of you in bomb drops and kept you out of the loop in world affairs. Our leaders are quite evil like that, sorry!
;)
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
OK Jaz, thanks for your "notes" and all but since you would rather be a condescending asshole than debate this topic like an educated man, I'm going to just give up on this thread.
I don't know what you think about me personally but to assume that I have no muslim friends and to insult me like that....that's uncalled for.
God almighty Lyle, you do know how to throw a strop don't you?? :rolleyes:
I don't think you're a racist or a bigot or any of the things you like to think you're being accused of, I didn't assume you had no Muslim friends, but surely if you do you have asked their opinion on this topic?
But, the fact is you're saying things as fact, when you're not that educated on the topic. I am. Do you know why you never see me commenting with authority on things like the US economy? Because I'm not informed enough about it, I'm certainly not as informed on it as you are. But on the topic of Northern Ireland/Iraq & the roots of their conflict, I am informed as it was the major part of my Politics degree looking at international conflict.
It would be nice to have a debate with you where you were maybe honest & said 'I don't know enough about that to comment' rather than posted poorly-informed opinions & throw your toys out of the pram when someone disagrees with you.
I've made it clear in the past that I actually think you're a pretty cool guy even if we differ politically, but posting stuff that isn't well-informed for the sake of it is very LeftyLee-ish (yes I just used Lefty as an adjective). You know you can post better than that. If you'd answer my questions fine, if you don't want to cool. But as you always tell me, you don't care if you offend me, so the same goes the other way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
To be honest mate;
i'd like to see Muslims openly marching in the streets with placards with their Mullahs and priests or whatever, in the lead 'Saying terrorists get out of our Religion! go make your own one, you murder ,we dont. Stop hiding amongst us, get out. You are against the compassion of Allah and his people.
I'd like to Christians marching too saying we are your brothers and sisters sorry we have killed some of you in bomb drops and kept you out of the loop in world affairs. Our leaders are quite evil like that, sorry!
;)
Moderate Muslims March in Phoenix :: Daniel Pipes
Indian Muslims unite against terror, hold peace march
BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | Glasgow and West | Hundreds attend anti-terror rally
Muslims against Terrorism
Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks
Satisfied to a point Andre?
Anyway, I do understand how you feel, this article though gives a pretty good account of how most Muslims feel about having to march against terrorists.
altmuslim - Opposing terrorism: What would marches against extremism achieve?
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Jaz, I'm done with the argument, sure I could take my time explain my points a bit more carefully so that you understand where I'm coming from but after this...
"Lyle, are they friends or are they simply people who serve you food at a restaraunt?"
I'm through debating with you
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
To be honest mate;
i'd like to see Muslims openly marching in the streets with placards with their Mullahs and priests or whatever, in the lead 'Saying terrorists get out of our Religion! go make your own one, you murder ,we dont. Stop hiding amongst us, get out. You are against the compassion of Allah and his people.
I'd like to Christians marching too saying we are your brothers and sisters sorry we have killed some of you in bomb drops and kept you out of the loop in world affairs. Our leaders are quite evil like that, sorry!
;)
Moderate Muslims March in Phoenix :: Daniel Pipes
Indian Muslims unite against terror, hold peace march
BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | Glasgow and West | Hundreds attend anti-terror rally
Muslims against Terrorism
Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks
Satisfied to a point Andre?
Anyway, I do understand how you feel, this article though gives a pretty good account of how most Muslims feel about having to march against terrorists.
altmuslim - Opposing terrorism: What would marches against extremism achieve?[/quote]
Yep thankyou ..burppp! :embarassed:
They havent done that out here from what I know!
Good on them.The largest mosque in Melbourne I think is in Carlton.They have had some trouble with the leader of that one (teaching the naughty way to educate us demons from the west). I think many are scared of his reach.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
I voted "No." The title/basis of this thread is ridiculous. Not even worth responding to.
I've come to conclude that the Israeli/Palestinian issue will never be solved. We'll be reading about it when we're old men. Palestinians and Israeli's will never embrace the examples set forth by MLK and Ghandi as they should.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
I voted "No." The title/basis of this thread is ridiculous. Not even worth responding to.
I've come to conclude that the Israeli/Palestinian issue will never be solved. We'll be reading about it when we're old men. Palestinians and Israeli's will never embrace the examples set forth by MLK and Ghandi as they should.
Israel's threat to world peace is a very serious issue and the way they go about asserting their 'authority' is by acting in a way that might be quite easily described as state sponsored terrorism. Of course, it isn't just Israel. Our own nations are guilty of the most heinous crimes against humanity too.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
My argument always stems back to the issue of Israel's creation. If I owned some land and the International community then took away my land and cast me aside because they wanted to give it to a preferred group of people, I can guarantee you that I would try and forcibly remove those bastards. If that means killing them and that is what it has to come down to then so be it. I can understand the Palestinian plight and would even go as far as to say I have some empathy with suicide bombers and people willing to give up their lives for the cause. Israel has no legitimate reason for existence in my eyes. It's a phony state set up by imperialistic forces.
It is there though, and that is a huge shame. It's like a huge sore on the face of the world. I would quite like to pick it off and allow the Palestinians to inhabit fresh new skin. Now if the Palestinians would be so kind as to allow Jews to live within the borders then that would be very nice and they should give them equal rights too. But Israel is there and they will continue to get away with their occupation, settlement building and persecution of the very people who most belong there.
It's beyond me how anyone can defend a rogue state like that.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
My argument always stems back to the issue of Israel's creation. If I owned some land and the International community then took away my land and cast me aside because they wanted to give it to a preferred group of people, I can guarantee you that I would try and forcibly remove those bastards. If that means killing them and that is what it has to come down to then so be it. I can understand the Palestinian plight and would even go as far as to say I have some empathy with suicide bombers and people willing to give up their lives for the cause. Israel has no legitimate reason for existence in my eyes. It's a phony state set up by imperialistic forces.
It is there though, and that is a huge shame. It's like a huge sore on the face of the world. I would quite like to pick it off and allow the Palestinians to inhabit fresh new skin. Now if the Palestinians would be so kind as to allow Jews to live within the borders then that would be very nice and they should give them equal rights too. But Israel is there and they will continue to get away with their occupation, settlement building and persecution of the very people who most belong there.
It's beyond me how anyone can defend a rogue state like that.
You know people will call you anti-semitic for your little rant right?;D
People love to play that card to stifle any criticism of this illegitimate nation.
On a serious note, what do you think is a feasible solution? It's been in existence for more than 60 years. The Jews aren't going to give back the land and they have their sugar daddy the US backing them up.
More often than not, might makes right. And that has always been a part of human history including nation states. Is it right? Of course not, but that's always been the case.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
My argument always stems back to the issue of Israel's creation. If I owned some land and the International community then took away my land and cast me aside because they wanted to give it to a preferred group of people, I can guarantee you that I would try and forcibly remove those bastards. If that means killing them and that is what it has to come down to then so be it. I can understand the Palestinian plight and would even go as far as to say I have some empathy with suicide bombers and people willing to give up their lives for the cause. Israel has no legitimate reason for existence in my eyes. It's a phony state set up by imperialistic forces.
It is there though, and that is a huge shame. It's like a huge sore on the face of the world. I would quite like to pick it off and allow the Palestinians to inhabit fresh new skin. Now if the Palestinians would be so kind as to allow Jews to live within the borders then that would be very nice and they should give them equal rights too. But Israel is there and they will continue to get away with their occupation, settlement building and persecution of the very people who most belong there.
It's beyond me how anyone can defend a rogue state like that.
You know people will call you anti-semitic for your little rant right?;D
People love to play that card to stifle any criticism of this illegitimate nation.
On a serious note, what do you think is a feasible solution? It's been in existence for more than 60 years. The Jews aren't going to give back the land and they have their sugar daddy the US backing them up.
More often than not, might makes right. And that has always been a part of human history including nation states. Is it right? Of course not, but that's always been the case.
Yeah, I know, but I don't really care. :p
My favourite Jew would have to be Chomsky and I really like his views when it comes to Israel/Palestine. A two state solution is probably the only solution now. It's about the Palestinians settling for far less than in an ideal situation, but when the imperialists are blinkered and immoral, it's kind of difficult to get a completely fair settlement. I think the Geneva accord proposals which are based somewhat on 1967 border principles is probably the most reasonable way of settling it all. Neither party would be happy (especially the Israeli's), but it's as reasonable as one could expect. My honest feelings are that Israel should be grateful for whatever they get, because they don't really deserve anything. But that's just me being 'anti-semitic'. ;)
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Actually, I would care if someone thought I was anti semitic because I'm obviously not. I hardly march up and down ranting about the Jews. My issue is always with injustice and in this situation see a strong element of injustice. I loath the Israeli state as it currently exists, but that doesn't mean I hate the vast bulk of its citizens who are probably very fair people. Unfortunately, none of us have any real control over our political elites.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
I was watching this video earlier this afternoon and it made for frustrating viewing. You try telling any of these people that Israel is not a terrorist state. They occupy land that isn't their own and then they butcher anyone that they percieve might be an independant thinking human being. Of course there wil be resistance against illegal occupation. Israel is like apartheid South Africa, in that it is a nation that no others should touch. It's criminal that the US has condoned these crimes for so many years and Israel continues to get away with crimes against humanity. I would love to get out there and see it all for myself one of these days. I would dearly love to spit on an Israeli soldier, how can those people do the job they do? Disgusting. :mad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5_4F45moNE
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
Jaz, I'm done with the argument, sure I could take my time explain my points a bit more carefully so that you understand where I'm coming from but after this...
"Lyle, are they friends or are they simply people who serve you food at a restaraunt?"
I'm through debating with you
You know Lyle, for someone who hates the likes of Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackson, you sure do get as easily offended as they do. Try to lighten up & see a bit of humour, rather than taking everything in the most offensive possible way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
My argument always stems back to the issue of Israel's creation. If I owned some land and the International community then took away my land and cast me aside because they wanted to give it to a preferred group of people, I can guarantee you that I would try and forcibly remove those bastards. If that means killing them and that is what it has to come down to then so be it. I can understand the Palestinian plight and would even go as far as to say I have some empathy with suicide bombers and people willing to give up their lives for the cause. Israel has no legitimate reason for existence in my eyes. It's a phony state set up by imperialistic forces.
It is there though, and that is a huge shame. It's like a huge sore on the face of the world. I would quite like to pick it off and allow the Palestinians to inhabit fresh new skin. Now if the Palestinians would be so kind as to allow Jews to live within the borders then that would be very nice and they should give them equal rights too. But Israel is there and they will continue to get away with their occupation, settlement building and persecution of the very people who most belong there.
It's beyond me how anyone can defend a rogue state like that
Miles, you should read some of David Rose's stuff. He's a Jewish journalist, who has some great stuff regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it's definitely worth looking up his stuff.
Also it's worth reading up on the case of Thomas Hurndall to see just how vicious the Israeli state can get when outsiders try to 'threaten' it.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
There was a documentary on BBC world last night looking at the way Israel is trying to restrict and control Palestinians living in Jerusalem. I thought it was quite well done on the whole and gave a balanced picture. It showed the Israeli side of the argument, but obviously you side more with the plight of the Palestinians. You see Hyundai bulldozers knocking down Palestinian homes and ignoring the Jewish homes. Many of these houses were not built with a permit whence the reason for demolition, but they focus mainly on the Palestinian homes. They also highlighted how Palestinians would try to apply for building permission, but would always be turned away by the authorities. Now if you can't build legally then what other choice do you have? You have to live illegally, you can't just sleep under the open skies.
There was also a Jewish couple with 5 children and number 6 on the way. They were American citizens, but wanted to return to their 'homeland'. They live with CCTV and Israeli security forces guarding their home. I looked at the husband and thought, "you are one arrogant son of a bitch". He is an American, he should have a home in America and yet he goes to Israel with his wife and kids, when really a Palestinian family with nothing should be living in his home.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
There was a documentary on BBC world last night looking at the way Israel is trying to restrict and control Palestinians living in Jerusalem. I thought it was quite well done on the whole and gave a balanced picture. It showed the Israeli side of the argument, but obviously you side more with the plight of the Palestinians. You see Hyundai bulldozers knocking down Palestinian homes and ignoring the Jewish homes. Many of these houses were not built with a permit whence the reason for demolition, but they focus mainly on the Palestinian homes. They also highlighted how Palestinians would try to apply for building permission, but would always be turned away by the authorities. Now if you can't build legally then what other choice do you have? You have to live illegally, you can't just sleep under the open skies.
There was also a Jewish couple with 5 children and number 6 on the way. They were American citizens, but wanted to return to their 'homeland'. They live with CCTV and Israeli security forces guarding their home. I looked at the husband and thought, "you are one arrogant son of a bitch". He is an American, he should have a home in America and yet he goes to Israel with his wife and kids, when really a Palestinian family with nothing should be living in his home.
Well said Sir. Palestinian and Jews lived in peace for over a 1,000 years before the European Jews showed up. The Palestinian never knew what a Terrorist was before 1948.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
My argument always stems back to the issue of Israel's creation. If I owned some land and the International community then took away my land and cast me aside because they wanted to give it to a preferred group of people, I can guarantee you that I would try and forcibly remove those bastards. If that means killing them and that is what it has to come down to then so be it. I can understand the Palestinian plight and would even go as far as to say I have some empathy with suicide bombers and people willing to give up their lives for the cause. Israel has no legitimate reason for existence in my eyes. It's a phony state set up by imperialistic forces.
It is there though, and that is a huge shame. It's like a huge sore on the face of the world. I would quite like to pick it off and allow the Palestinians to inhabit fresh new skin. Now if the Palestinians would be so kind as to allow Jews to live within the borders then that would be very nice and they should give them equal rights too. But Israel is there and they will continue to get away with their occupation, settlement building and persecution of the very people who most belong there.
It's beyond me how anyone can defend a rogue state like that.
You know people will call you anti-semitic for your little rant right?;D
People love to play that card to stifle any criticism of this illegitimate nation.
On a serious note, what do you think is a feasible solution? It's been in existence for more than 60 years. The Jews aren't going to give back the land and they have their sugar daddy the US backing them up.
More often than not, might makes right. And that has always been a part of human history including nation states. Is it right? Of course not, but that's always been the case.
Yeah, I know, but I don't really care. :p
My favourite Jew would have to be Chomsky and I really like his views when it comes to Israel/Palestine. A two state solution is probably the only solution now. It's about the Palestinians settling for far less than in an ideal situation, but when the imperialists are blinkered and immoral, it's kind of difficult to get a completely fair settlement. I think the Geneva accord proposals which are based somewhat on 1967 border principles is probably the most reasonable way of settling it all. Neither party would be happy (especially the Israeli's), but it's as reasonable as one could expect. My honest feelings are that Israel should be grateful for whatever they get, because they don't really deserve anything. But that's just me being 'anti-semitic'. ;)
My favorite Jew is George Costanza.
lol, That scene where he plays the Nazi leader to get a free ride in a limo from the airport. hahaha
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
It is quite difficult actually not to see how Israel is plainly wrong in their way to operate and how they are extremely illegal all around and they are the one who fostered Intifada. Now they say "look terrorists terrorists" but never looked at the causes of that consequence... which is because they always played the hard line and refused to compromise, David Ben Gourion, Meir Amit, Netanyahu all wanted all the share of the cake and to push the palestinians away. Rabin understood the nonsense, accepted peace and got killed for it. Now were are we? 250 (more or less) motions from the United Nations condemning Israel but voided by the US veto, a bloodbath, many houses on the Palestinian side destroyed in retaliation and on a very fragile balance later, the David's star seems always to be unwilling to compromise.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
We interrupt this discussion for a short intermission comedy break.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOXCAKL9ESc
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
I defy anyone to watch this video and tell me Israel is not a terrorist state. It sounds absolutely horrific! :mad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fzolEE-7Do
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
There is just no good excuses at all to justify what's going on over there, they are making Palestinians living out of misery, appropriating their land illegally, the US help them with a gag ball over the UN via the security Council and they wonder why some kamikaze are enlisting to do whatever damage they can, horrible, really.
-
Re: Is Israel a terrorist state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
There is just no good excuses at all to justify what's going on over there, they are making Palestinians living out of misery, appropriating their land illegally, the US help them with a gag ball over the UN via the security Council and they wonder why some kamikaze are enlisting to do whatever damage they can, horrible, really.
The US can invade Iraq over made up allegations of WMD and yet they don't flutter an eyelid over years of systematic Israeli abuses? "Oh, but they are our allies....you must understand their difficult position". Yeah right! And killing hundreds of thousands in the Middle East is the best way to protect US citizens too! Bullshit each and every way I look. It makes the blood boil, but I must learn to relax as I am getting old now.
