Who would have beaten a prime Whitaker?

I think the great thing about Pernell (or should I say 'the thing that defines his greatness') is that absolutely NO fighter (at 135/ 140) beats him 5/5... probably not even 3/3.

He's that good.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Trueno

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Pep, Leonard and Tszyu would have no chance

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Each guy I posted I gave a shot at beating Sweetpea, pretty sure he may have beaten quite a few of em.
Pep and Leonard may not have been big enough.

But you've gotta give Tszyu a chance don't you?
Pernell had a good beard, but Tszyu could take guys with one.

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Leonard not big enough. Pep no where near the offense to pull it off. And Tszyu way to one-dimensional for Whitaker.

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Leonard wouldn't have stood chance against Whitaker? WTF he would have stood a chance against anyone. Also Tszyu would match up quite well with Whitaker, he was calculated accurate, with huge power. He would probably lose, but he would give Whitaker a ton of problems.

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:vd: Benny Leonard. Not Ray Leonard

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How can you talk about Benny Leonard, how much footage of him have you actually seen? Like 2 minutes of crappy footage?

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by :::PSL:::

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Originally Posted by ICB

Aaron Pryor wouldn't beat Pernell Whitaker, he went life and death with Gary Hinton. Who was a slick Southpaw, but not in Pernell Whitaker's league. That fight right there shows you Aaron Pryor would of been totally outboxed by Pernell Whitaker.

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Style makes fights. Im sure Pea could make Aaron look bad in spots but eventually Pryor`s volume, workrate, and tenacity would be too much.

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Come forward overtly aggressive fighters are tailor made for Whitaker's style. Yeah styles make fights. In the case of Pryor's it's the wrong kind for him against Pernell. Just like come forward fighters are tailor made for Pacquiao the same applies here but Whitaker is instead an defensive whiz.

He takes at least 8 rounds or more in a UD against Pryor.

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I don't think that's necessarily true, none of the guys that came forward on Whitaker, or anyone he faced besides maybe Roger Mayweather had really good handspeed. Whitaker fought against aggressive guys who were a lot slower than him, and his defensive was heavily based on his reflexes and ability to outquick guys. No way he does that against guys like Pryor and Pacquiao. He would be caught blind by the speed and output these guys could produce. I think he does better against Pryor because he was better against orthodox fighters, and Pryor isn't as fast nor does he hit as hard as Manny.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by :::PSL:::

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Originally Posted by ICB

Aaron Pryor wouldn't beat Pernell Whitaker, he went life and death with Gary Hinton. Who was a slick Southpaw, but not in Pernell Whitaker's league. That fight right there shows you Aaron Pryor would of been totally outboxed by Pernell Whitaker.

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Style makes fights. Im sure Pea could make Aaron look bad in spots but eventually Pryor`s volume, workrate, and tenacity would be too much.

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Do yourself a favor watch the fight i mentioned above, and im almost certain your change your mind.

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I've watched some of it. YouTube - pryor vs hinton

Everybody get an off night sometimes. I'd still favor Pryor over Pea.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I think mayweather beats at any weight they occupy, he's harder to hit, faster, bigger, and he works harder. He's simply better than Whitaker.

Duran also likely beats him, Whitaker couldn't move like Leonard did, and Duran would just go to the body and make an ugly inside fight, but he's bigger and better than jcc.

Leonard and hearns I think they beat him because both are excellent fighters with a huge size advantage while both are also faster than him.

Aaron Pryor and pacquiao both best whitaker because they have to great a combination of speed, output and pressure.

I've watched a lot of Whitaker, and he's one of my favorites, but he simply relied on his reflexes far too much, the actual technique needed against a lot of these guys' speed simply isn't there, and he didn't control the ring the same way a lot these guys did.

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surprise surprise Taeth once again making it seem as if no one in the history of the sport could beat Mayweather...

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I've never seen Taeth do this, but in this case I have to agree with him. Whitaker had superb defensive skills, but Mayweather simply works harder and possesses better offensive skills than Pernell and would have taken a judges decision had they have fought.

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just read most of his posts where he mentions Mayweather in nearly everyone of them, he builds him to be the #1 ATG fighter in the history of the sport

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I don't think he's the greatest, but I think he's up there, as he should be. Just like RJJ should as well. It's ignorant people who think guys who they have barely seen in their lives are way better that should have their heads' checked. Most people have a p4p list who consist of guys who largely were never filmed in full bouts and nearly never near their prime yet they idolize them to no limit. Like Ray Robinson, there isn't enough full fights when he was at his best against his best opponents to really establish how good he was. Let alone Wille Pep, Benny Leonard, Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong, etc, etc. People hypothisize here and there, but they really don't know how these guys actually looked in the ring at their best.

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Very good points

If you look at things objectively it would be very hard to not have PAC and PBF in the top 10 p4p of all time.

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Originally Posted by Ant Live

I remember when Gatti was fighting Floyd. Whitaker was cheering hard for Gatti to a point that I might think, Whitaker don't like Floyd. Floyd's best performance ever!!!

One think about Floyd we all have to agree on, Floyd is relax and compose in the ring. The little dancing that Whitaker use to do that made his opponent try to load up on, Floyd will never do. "Take this laser jab all night!"

Floyd by MD

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Not being argumentative but the reason that Whitaker was rooting for Gatti was because they were friends who sometimes trained together in Va Beach, Virginia. Whitaker attempted to make Gatti use his boxing ability more and incorporate that deep knee bend that Whitaker was so effective at using to get out of the way of punches. Just a little info I thought you might be interested in, also in case if you doubt the accuracy of this post I am sure you can google it or look at Gatti's fights with Robinson because it is mentioned briefly in the HBO commentary because at one point both Gatti and Robinson were in a Whitaker training camp at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

I think the great thing about Pernell (or should I say 'the thing that defines his greatness') is that absolutely NO fighter (at 135/ 140) beats him 5/5... probably not even 3/3.

He's that good.

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I agree at 135 to 140 I really don't see anyone in the 2 division's history can beat prime Whitaker.

At 147 the big welterweights like Leonard and Hearns would be suitable candidates to beat him, but even then I don't see them knocking him out or flat out dominating Whitaker, the guy's defense and boxing skills were too good.

And Tszyu doesn't have smarts or all around ability to beat Whitaker at 140 imo. Knocking out Zab Judah another southpaw and trying to knockout prime Whitaker are entirely 2 different things.

I don't think that whitaker was to out of prime when Dela Hoya fought him.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

I don't think that whitaker was to out of prime when Dela Hoya fought him.

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Yes he was, unfortunately drugs were beginninng to play a role with his performances around this time. Still was very good but definitely not prime

It seems people see Tszyu as a one dimensional straight forward fighter....
For those with open minds, check this out...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA-PybmMePA

I never thought that Whitaker was strong enough offensively to be considered an all-time great fighter. Much of his defense involved being to far away to hit back or not being in position to counter. Duran beats him, Emile Griffith beats him, Napoles, Luis Rodriguez, possibly Benitez. Buddy McGirt nearly won their first fight, fighting one-handed. Smart guys beat him.
Also, if he had tried a lot of his tricks (squatting to knee level, grabbing the opponent's leg in clinches, etc...) Duran (or Basilio or Zivic or Greb or Walker) would've kicked him in the face.

Mayweather, Leonard and Hearns I would favor to beat Whitaker.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I think mayweather beats at any weight they occupy, he's harder to hit, faster, bigger, and he works harder. He's simply better than Whitaker.

Duran also likely beats him, Whitaker couldn't move like Leonard did, and Duran would just go to the body and make an ugly inside fight, but he's bigger and better than jcc.

Leonard and hearns I think they beat him because both are excellent fighters with a huge size advantage while both are also faster than him.

Aaron Pryor and pacquiao both best whitaker because they have to great a combination of speed, output and pressure.

I've watched a lot of Whitaker, and he's one of my favorites, but he simply relied on his reflexes far too much, the actual technique needed against a lot of these guys' speed simply isn't there, and he didn't control the ring the same way a lot these guys did.

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I actually had to CC this post, hard to fault it really.

A prime Whitaker was at lightweight he was very good at welterweight but he was an ATG at lightweight.

He was at the bad end of some decision but he had quiet the ran at lw i think Mosley might give him some trouble at lw. As for Welter i believe Hearns and Leonard would be to big and to trong for him. Then you radar who i think would make a very boring fight not sure what it look like or who win.

Pep was a small featherweight and watching those two fight would not garner high expectations.

Lots of people could and many would beat Whitaker. I’m not even going to touch 147 because Whitaker has no business being in the conversation. 135 and 140 can be combined for this as most of the lightweights in history could have campaigned there if the weight class existed and many of them did when it did.

Sam Langford Yup, that Langford.
Joe Gans
Eddie Perkins
Benny Leonard
Carlos Ortiz
Henry Armstrong
Beau Jack
Wilfredo Benitez
Niccolino Locche and the bonus would be its use as a sleep aid.
Shane Mosley
Duilio Loi
Roberto Duran
Ike Williams
Barney Ross
Antonio Cervantes
Juan Coggi
Jack Berg
Floyd Mayweather bit of another sleeper
Tony Cazoneri
Ricky Hatton
Alexis Arguello
Freddie Welsh
Jose Louis Castillo
Joe Brown
Ken Buchanan

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Pep was a small featherweight and watching those two fight would not garner high expectations.

Lots of people could and many would beat Whitaker. I’m not even going to touch 147 because Whitaker has no business being in the conversation. 135 and 140 can be combined for this as most of the lightweights in history could have campaigned there if the weight class existed and many of them did when it did.

Sam Langford Yup, that Langford.
Joe Gans
Eddie Perkins
Benny Leonard
Carlos Ortiz
Henry Armstrong
Beau Jack
Wilfredo Benitez
Niccolino Locche and the bonus would be its use as a sleep aid.
Shane Mosley
Duilio Loi
Roberto Duran
Ike Williams
Barney Ross
Antonio Cervantes
Juan Coggi
Jack Berg
Floyd Mayweather bit of another sleeper
Tony Cazoneri
Ricky Hatton
Alexis Arguello
Freddie Welsh
Jose Louis Castillo
Joe Brown
Ken Buchanan

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IMO he was too slick for a bunch of the guys on that list, especially Hatton and Castillo

The best chances

At 135lb
Duran -Late stoppage win for Duran
Arguello- Whitaker wins a close decision
Mosley- Mosley was at his best at Lightweight, can Sweet Pea withstand the power?

At 140lb
Pryor- It is almost hard to imagine the frustration Pryor would have trying to catch him?
Tszyu- He had ring smarts, was experienced and handled southpaws better than most, i think he lands one?
Mayweather - I just don't see Whitaker beating him?

Whitaker is an all time great, certainly a top 3 Lightweight of all time, it gets more difficult for him as he moves up in weight.

Can you imagine Whitaker V Loche?

Would Salvador Sanchez have made it to Lightweight by the late 80's had he lived? They almost certainly would've met sometime 1987-88 as Sanchez wouldn't have turned 30 until 1989.

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

IMO he was too slick for a bunch of the guys on that list, especially Hatton and Castillo

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That is fair. Hatton was something else around the time of Zu and Castillo might be one of the most over looked Mexican fighters ever.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

IMO he was too slick for a bunch of the guys on that list, especially Hatton and Castillo

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That is fair. Hatton was something else around the time of Zu and Castillo might be one of the most over looked Mexican fighters ever.

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I understand that but at 135 or 140 IMO Whitaker would have just pot shotted Hatton all night and would just pick Castillo apart, Whitaker had more pop than what most people like to admit

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

IMO he was too slick for a bunch of the guys on that list, especially Hatton and Castillo

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That is fair. Hatton was something else around the time of Zu and Castillo might be one of the most over looked Mexican fighters ever.

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I understand that but at 135 or 140 IMO Whitaker would have just pot shotted Hatton all night and would just pick Castillo apart, Whitaker had more pop than what most people like to admit

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Exactly, I think alot of those guys on that list don't have a chance vs Sweet Pea at 135 or 140. As you move up in weight he is at more of a disadvantage.