I despair at the heavyweight division, I really do.
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I despair at the heavyweight division, I really do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
It's ok to like Haye. He's actually exciting if and when he comes to fight. But you gotta rake him over the coals for his performance against Wlad. Not only was it disgraceful... it was downright disrespectful to the boxing fans who paid money to see the fight. If you're gonna talk the talk... you gotta at least make SOME effort to walk the walk.
Cruiser Weight champ, yes but that is still many rungs down the ladder from being HW champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44was he not the unified cruiser champ? did he not win the title away from home? was he not hw champ? did he not win the title away from home?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacWhat other side is there than what he's shown us? The side where he looks good against sub-par opponents? Don't give me that bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44unfortunately man you are another who is clouded by your hate for hayeQuote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacI'm sorry. What David Haye do you know? Because we're talking about a different fella, I suppose. Because David Haye's only notable opponent was Wladmir Klitschko. And boy, didn't he show heart?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
If bitching about your toe shows heart, I don't even know the sport of boxing anymore.
i dislike boxers but i dont let these feelings get in the way of my judgement of their skills
was he not willing to fight wlad in wlads boxing home? did he not give up all the advantages in the fight?
he has heart, i can see why you hate him, but be realistic
Heavy Weight champion, only just in name he avoided the two biggest fighters Wlad and Vitali
Only later to be outclassed by Wlad in both the press conferences and the fight.
Even Buster Douglas, beat the undisputed HW champion, something Haye has never done.
avoid wlad and vitali yet he fought wlad? in his boxing home?Quote:
Originally Posted by boyla
and haye doesnt have it because he didnt equal the single biggest upset in hw boxing history?
cummon man you can do better than that cant you?
mate i dont particularly like him as a person, and yes he deserves all of the abuse he gets for that performanceQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
It's ok to like Haye. He's actually exciting if and when he comes to fight. But you gotta rake him over the coals for his performance against Wlad. Not only was it disgraceful... it was downright disrespectful to the boxing fans who paid money to see the fight. If you're gonna talk the talk... you gotta at least make SOME effort to walk the walk.
but my point is people are being daft about his skills because the dont like him
read a couple of posts above from boyla, its a typical example of a completely irrational post fueled by his hate for haye
i read in another thread someone writing chisora's performance against vitali proves that chis would beat haye? how does it? if the two were to fight only a fool would put money on chisora
Well it is hard to justify calling him a HW champion, because he avoided to two best ranked heavyweights.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44avoid wlad and vitali yet he fought wlad? in his boxing home?Quote:
Originally Posted by boyla
and haye doesnt have it because he didnt equal the single biggest upset in hw boxing history?
cummon man you can do better than that cant you?
He got a belt, but he didn't beat a top HW fighter, he was not even the best fighter in Europe nevermind the world.
Since when does beating the third???? best HW, make you champion.
When he did fight one of the two top ranked HW for the past ten years, he lost.
Not much a a heavy weight champion there.
Buster beat the undisputed HW champion, so did Hasim Rahman, something Haye will never achieve.
As for his very short reign as a HW champion of the world :),
He fought Ruiz then Ordinary Harrison, then he got beat and retired.
Not what I would call a champion, Ruiz was ranked a still giving good performances.
I am not expecting every HW to be a lineal champion, but I expect them to beat the best fighters in the division, before they can claim to be the best.
The Klitschos have been a dominate force in the HW for the past ten years to side step them, beat "another" fighter then wear a belt and claim you are the best fighter in the world.
It just does not add up.
So when people claim Haye was a HW champion, who did he beat to earn that title, Valuev just does not cut the mustard, then Ruiz, Ordinary then he got beat.
Wlad won the WBO title off of Chris Byrd in 2000 by UD and then defended the belt in 2001 in Las Vegas vs Charles Shufford...but he had fought away from home long before that.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44I can understand how the wlad performance and the toe thing can make people think the way they do, but lets put that in perspective, how did wlad do in his first world championship fight?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
How long was it before wlad fought away from home in a world championship fight?
The audley fight was a farce, the worst i have ever seen in boxing, i knew it would happen too, as did the majority of boxing fans. BUT david haye made more money out of that fight than he would have in any other fight barring the klits in germany, do you reall blame haye for that?
Boyla another stupid post sorry
El kabong, in what fight did wlad fight away from home long before the byrd fight? And what happened in his first world title fight?
Look im not saying wlad had it easy im just giving proof that haye had heart
He was the Cruiserweight Champion, sure. But the cruiserweights have limited competition, as do the heavyweights.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44was he not the unified cruiser champ? did he not win the title away from home? was he not hw champ? did he not win the title away from home?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacWhat other side is there than what he's shown us? The side where he looks good against sub-par opponents? Don't give me that bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44unfortunately man you are another who is clouded by your hate for hayeQuote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacI'm sorry. What David Haye do you know? Because we're talking about a different fella, I suppose. Because David Haye's only notable opponent was Wladmir Klitschko. And boy, didn't he show heart?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
If bitching about your toe shows heart, I don't even know the sport of boxing anymore.
i dislike boxers but i dont let these feelings get in the way of my judgement of their skills
was he not willing to fight wlad in wlads boxing home? did he not give up all the advantages in the fight?
he has heart, i can see why you hate him, but be realistic
But, no. He was not the Heavyweight Champion. Maybe on paper, he was, but he didn't beat either of the two best heavyweights.
He didn't have any advantages when fighting Wlad. We sure thought he did, but he truly didn't. When you come to lose, you don't have any advantages what so ever.
Yes. You really can blame Haye for that. If he made that money working hard and taking money from an employer, that's all good and well. But he didn't. He made money off of boxing fans, and then robbed them of a decent performance. Of course you can blame him for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44I can understand how the wlad performance and the toe thing can make people think the way they do, but lets put that in perspective, how did wlad do in his first world championship fight?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
How long was it before wlad fought away from home in a world championship fight?
The audley fight was a farce, the worst i have ever seen in boxing, i knew it would happen too, as did the majority of boxing fans. BUT david haye made more money out of that fight than he would have in any other fight barring the klits in germany, do you reall blame haye for that?
He gets no credit for not being a true champion. He is a con man that isn't even good enough to fool everybody. He needs lessons from Hopkins.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
Greed is no excuse for being a terrible fighter. And yes, it sums up his heavyweight career. Wlad is fighting Mormeck because he doesn't really have many other options. Wlad can't fight Vitali, and he can't fight himself. He's earned his spot as the heavyweight champion. You can't just come in, not fight the best, and then have a spot as a heavyweight champion. It shouldn't work that way, and we need to shun that way of thinking in general.
He talked crap for years before stepping into the ring with Wlad. And he gave a very very poor performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44avoid wlad and vitali yet he fought wlad? in his boxing home?Quote:
Originally Posted by boyla
and haye doesnt have it because he didnt equal the single biggest upset in hw boxing history?
cummon man you can do better than that cant you?
I could have put on a more entertaining fight than Haye did. Haye didn't earn anything.
Than count me a fool. Because Haye doesn't have the guts to stick it in with a fighter like Chisora.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44mate i dont particularly like him as a person, and yes he deserves all of the abuse he gets for that performanceQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
It's ok to like Haye. He's actually exciting if and when he comes to fight. But you gotta rake him over the coals for his performance against Wlad. Not only was it disgraceful... it was downright disrespectful to the boxing fans who paid money to see the fight. If you're gonna talk the talk... you gotta at least make SOME effort to walk the walk.
but my point is people are being daft about his skills because the dont like him
read a couple of posts above from boyla, its a typical example of a completely irrational post fueled by his hate for haye
i read in another thread someone writing chisora's performance against vitali proves that chis would beat haye? how does it? if the two were to fight only a fool would put money on chisora
slim, your posts are unreasonable and fueled by your hate for haye, theres always daft reasons why hayes achievements were shit
- he was cruiserweight champ but the cruisers were all shit
- he wasnt HW champ because he never beat wlad or vitali. Mate there have been hundreds of world champs who havent beaten the best in the division
- he made 10 million from a fight what the fans wanted yet he shouldnt have had the fight coz he would win easy
As you are probably quite young and quite new to the boxing world i'll do you a favour and give you one betting tip, its an absolute sure thing too and the odds might even be reasonable so dont turn your nose up at it - if the haye chisora fight ever happens dont bet on chisora :)
But who did he fight at HW to make him champ Valvez, Auldrey and Ruiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
Buster is looking better every fucking day.
I wonder in 20 years we will still be talking about haye beating Valvez, and comparing him with Ali.
I doubt it, you say he has skills and heart, but he also had the opportunities and he wasted them.
Cruiserweight, who gives a fuck about that division really.
Do not make me laugh.
I wish someone would step up with a decent well constructed argument so i would at least have something to think about
Everyone is tired of David Haye....besides isn't he retired....I don't know, I could be confusing it with "retarded" when it comes to talking about Haye, either way he's one if not both of thoseQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
-Limited division, in my opinion. He didn't fight Cunningham, did he?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
-Those hundreds of world champions are also not champions. They didn't fight the best, and they're full of shit.
-He shouldn't have had the fight because he could have had fought somebody who posed a challenge and given us a good show. But no, he wasted our time and money.
My expectations aren't that high. I just expect a fighter to not be a total twat.
Is cruiserweight even a legitimate division.
Maybe Light heavy, but cruiserweight may as well be <insert gay joke> weight here.
Ok slim and boyla
So were not just slagging david haye here are we? What we are saying is the cruiser weight division is rubbish and there fore no cruiser weight champ has ever been legitemate, and we are also slagging 90% of the world champs that have ever been because they didnt fight the number 1 in their division
Is there anything we like about boxing?
I consider Steve Cunningham a cruiserweight champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
90% of the world champions aren't world champions! :thumb: We need to go back to the good old days where there were 7 world champions. I can't follow 24,000 fucking divisions with 10 recognized organizations giving out World Championship Belts.
Fucking ridiculous. The sports lost its simplicity, and that's why we don't have any fans any more.
Uss is a cruiserweight champ but the cruiserweight is shit so it dunt matter
I'll admit that I simply don't follow the Cruiserweight division very closely. So it's really not my place to talk about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
What I do know is the heavyweight division. I haven't seen evidence of Haye being the good fella that some people claim he is.
Unified champs move up a division, often straight into a title shot - people don't bat an eyelid.
Haye does it and people are upset and don't think he deserved it. I love how in any other weight class its fine to move up into big fights... But Haye was expected to start his record again from scratch?
People (understandably) dislike Haye and like Erics says this sometimes causes them to come up with clouded judgements.
Wlad was awful against Haye and his latest 'fight' is one of the worst match ups ever made in boxing. I hope his next fight is great because he's hardly on a career high right now is he?
I was under the impression to call yourself a champion, you are the best in your sport, No.1.
Whether that be football, boxing, cycling or whatever.
In this thread you have people saying Haye was HW champion, I heard the news and I follow boxing, seen him fight Valvez I even seen him do dozens of interviews with a belt.
I even looked a numerous rankings for the heavyweight division, most said he was 3rd ranked heavyweight, a strange few even placed him 2nd ranked heavyweight in the world.
Why because he was never No.1 in the boxings fans eyes.
He kept running his mouth off at the Klitschos, and he got the "real" world title fight against Wlad.
But he lost his bottle in the publicity and behaved like a scared little child, he threw insults and temper tantrums.
Wlad was pure class even before a punch had been thrown.
Wlad is not the most exciting fighter in the world, but he is arguably the No.1 boxer at heavyweight for many years.
Haye got his shot, and even before the fight he announced his retirement and got beat.
But still will not shut the fuck up.
Boxing is a man's sport and you risk your life in the ring, if you beat the best you are not just a winner you are a CHAMPION, the most prestigious honour is to beat the heavyweight champion, then you can be called the heavyweight champion of the world.
Better than anyone on the planet in one of the oldest and most respected sports.
You name will be written in the history books and you will be compared to all the greats.
So excuse me when I can not stomach the thought of any adult with boxing knowledge who calls Haye a HW champion.
There is actually a word for Haye, a paper champion, because he was only even a champion on paper.
But before we judge Haye to harshly lets look at his reign as a paper champion.
Who did he fight to call himself no.1 in the world
Valuez A giant who had beat Ruiz for the Title then struggled against an ageing Holyfield
Ruiz A man who lost to Valuez, but still a decent boxer
Audley Harrison Absolute disgrace
Valuez was a paper champion with one championship defence against 46 year old Holyfield.
Boyla
walk away from your computer
think to yourself, forget how much you dislike david haye, put a boxer you like in exactly the same situation, imagine everything haye did the boxer you are thinking of did (in the ring)
relax, take a deap breath
walk back to your computer and reread your post
how do you feel? is boxing still all that bad?
Every thing Haye did was motivated by greed and fear.
Frank Warren is some mentor.
Back on topic
"Haye vs Chisora. will it happen?"
No, because Haye is motivated by greed, wants a title fight
and fear, of getting his ass whooped and what little credibility he has left disappear
If it was any other fighter?
His record at HW is very poor, especially his choice of opponents.
His record at cruiser was one world title defence, not exactly eye catching for some one who claimed he cleaned up the division and had no other opponents.
As a cruiser weight 6/10
As a heavy weight 4/10
I see there is 4 cruiser weight champions atm, not exactly dominating the division.
He was unhappy at cruiser weight bc lets face it who cares about cruiser weight, many fighters move up in weight class as they age.
He made a choice to fight at cruiser bc it was his best chance at making money, maybe he was scared to give away weight to an opponent.
He wanted to cement his legacy, haha and the only way he could do that was moving to heavyweight which has always been most popular division historically.
He chased Wlad on many occasions, but why should Wlad settle for an unranked opponent at HW
Because he wanted to? Twice?Quote:
Originally Posted by boyla
http://resources3.news.com.au/images...rc-mormeck.jpg
BONJOUR
They could bill it as 'The Toe Versus The Mad Man'!
It is much, much different with the Cruiserweights moving up into Heavyweight, my friend. The difference between light welterweight and welterweight is a mere seven pounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
The difference between heavyweight and cruiserweight is anything between ten to one-hundred pounds. The lightest the Klitschkos are going to come in is at 240 lbs. A fighter shouldn't be making a beeline from 200lb opponents straight to one that is 240.
But I don't see a big deal, either. It's not like we've got many challengers in the heavyweight division.
There wasn't a single sane person that thought Valuev beat Holyfield. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by boyla
So I'm going to correct you. Valuev was outboxed by a 46 year-old Holyfield, and got a gift decision.
If any fighter I loved did the same stuff Haye did, I wouldn't care for them any longer. I'd hate them the same as I hate David Haye.
what did david haye do?
He talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, simply enough. He's not earned his right to talk the way he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
so you hate him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacHe talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, simply enough. He's not earned his right to talk the way he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
you sound like a right twot
Of course I hate him. He's a disgrace to the sport, and you can't prove otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44so you hate him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacHe talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, simply enough. He's not earned his right to talk the way he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
you sound like a right twot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=4pu-rOx_e-8
2:20 when Haye's music starts ;D
you cant prove he is ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacOf course I hate him. He's a disgrace to the sport, and you can't prove otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44so you hate him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacHe talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, simply enough. He's not earned his right to talk the way he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
you sound like a right twot
I already have. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44you cant prove he is ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacOf course I hate him. He's a disgrace to the sport, and you can't prove otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44so you hate him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacHe talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, simply enough. He's not earned his right to talk the way he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
you sound like a right twot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacI already have. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44you cant prove he is ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacOf course I hate him. He's a disgrace to the sport, and you can't prove otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44so you hate him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacHe talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, simply enough. He's not earned his right to talk the way he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
you sound like a right twot
not in the real world
I never noticed before but around the 2:36 mark Haye starts elbowing Chisora's back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
we used to call that an MP at school, dunno why
It's actually anywhere from 1lb to infite... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacIt is much, much different with the Cruiserweights moving up into Heavyweight, my friend. The difference between light welterweight and welterweight is a mere seven pounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
The difference between heavyweight and cruiserweight is anything between ten to one-hundred pounds. The lightest the Klitschkos are going to come in is at 240 lbs. A fighter shouldn't be making a beeline from 200lb opponents straight to one that is 240.
But I don't see a big deal, either. It's not like we've got many challengers in the heavyweight division.
.
But yeah, you said it yourself... not many challengers in the HW division, so even less of a 'line' for Haye to get in and work through.
What gets me is how polarised people are... they'll say that Haye wasn't a real heavyweight, but judge him as if he were one against Wlad.
He's was either an out matched and out weighed cruiserweight who did the best he could against Wlad with all of the odds stacked against him... or he was a real heavyweight who put on a weak showing.
People seem to want it both ways though, not only was Haye not a real Heavyweight... but he had no reason to box so negatively against Wlad? (other than not deserving to be at heavyweight) ???
...and please don't say "yeah but he said this and said that". We're boxing fans, we know how this shit works when it comes to selling a fight.
Either Haye deserves slating for how he fought Wlad, or Wlad does for even sharing a ring with Haye (see also: 'Mormeck')
ha, an intelligent point of view well done :)Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGBIt's actually anywhere from 1lb to infite... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacIt is much, much different with the Cruiserweights moving up into Heavyweight, my friend. The difference between light welterweight and welterweight is a mere seven pounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
The difference between heavyweight and cruiserweight is anything between ten to one-hundred pounds. The lightest the Klitschkos are going to come in is at 240 lbs. A fighter shouldn't be making a beeline from 200lb opponents straight to one that is 240.
But I don't see a big deal, either. It's not like we've got many challengers in the heavyweight division.
.
But yeah, you said it yourself... not many challengers in the HW division, so even less of a 'line' for Haye to get in and work through.
What gets me is how polarised people are... they'll say that Haye wasn't a real heavyweight, but judge him as if he were one against Wlad.
He's was either an out matched and out weighed cruiserweight who did the best he could against Wlad with all of the odds stacked against him... or he was a real heavyweight who put on a weak showing.
People seem to want it both ways though, not only was Haye not a real Heavyweight... but he had no reason to box so negatively against Wlad? (other than not deserving to be at heavyweight) ???
...and please don't say "yeah but he said this and said that". We're boxing fans, we know how this shit works when it comes to selling a fight.
Either Haye deserves slating for how he fought Wlad, or Wlad does for even sharing a ring with Haye (see also: 'Mormeck')
One point i never argue in this situation is (and im gonna argue it now), hayes performance was very negative yes and very disapointing, but wlad was also very negative too, he did a lot of holding anytime there was any heat, if haye didnt stay on the end of his punches he held on (as always)
but it is accepted because it is wlad and thats how he always fights, haye gets the abuse because he regularly said he was gonna knock his head off and he didnt
Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacI already have. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44you cant prove he is ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacOf course I hate him. He's a disgrace to the sport, and you can't prove otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44so you hate him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim the BoxingManiacHe talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, simply enough. He's not earned his right to talk the way he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
you sound like a right twot
not in the real world
I'll restate what I said.
Haye is a disgrace to the sport of boxing because:
1. He fought for a title from shit Valuev, who Oldyfield had schooled.
2. He defended his title by fighting Audley Harrison in a very disappointing fight.
3. He talked up a fight with the Klitschkos for years before running scared in the actual fight. He then blamed his toe.
4. He has showed no interest in giving the fans the fights that we want to see.
Justify any of those for me, buddy.
Could happen, could be "big" in the UK but it doesn't grab my interest one second, I'd rather see Haye fighting Adamek or perhaps Adamek-Chisora could be an interesting scrap too.