Former Armstrong temmate Tyler Hamilton is coming out with a book that describes Lance and the blood doping & drug use in detail
Tyler Hamilton's new book 'The Secret Race' claims doping was a 'fact of life' with Lance Armstrong - NY Daily News
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Former Armstrong temmate Tyler Hamilton is coming out with a book that describes Lance and the blood doping & drug use in detail
Tyler Hamilton's new book 'The Secret Race' claims doping was a 'fact of life' with Lance Armstrong - NY Daily News
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Originally Posted by TitoFan
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Originally Posted by GreenbeanzThat is a VERY Dumb article.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
It says the author still supports Lance, although it's possible he may be guilty of taking PED's. No different than what a lot of other Armstrong supporters are saying.
Exactly. It says even if he did cheat, which several people attest to him doing as well as owning up to doing so themselves,then the author doesn't care anymore? Mainly because everyone else was. I suppose then you do not take issue with Boxers using PED's because supposedly everyone is. This is the line of argument employed by Larry Olubamiwo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzThat is a VERY Dumb article.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
It says the author still supports Lance, although it's possible he may be guilty of taking PED's. No different than what a lot of other Armstrong supporters are saying.
Exactly. It says even if he did cheat, which several people attest to him doing as well as owning up to doing so themselves,then the author doesn't care anymore? Mainly because everyone else was. I suppose then you do not take issue with Boxers using PED's because supposedly everyone is. This is the line of argument employed by Larry Olubamiwo.
If you bothered to read into the intent of the article, it basically says that the author (as well as a lot of other people) is not going to quit supporting Armstrong based on this witch-hunt (which it was, regardless of the actual events). And he's not withdrawing his support, mainly because of the inspiration that Armstrong has represented for millions of people, in a very worthwhile cause..... cancer.
To ignore Armstrong's positive influence on millions of people, and to compare him with the boxers who use PEDs..... is to be a bit unfair, IMO. Tell me..... how many boxers do you know of who have inspired even ONE person? Most of the PED users have been known to be self-serving assholes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzThat is a VERY Dumb article.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
It says the author still supports Lance, although it's possible he may be guilty of taking PED's. No different than what a lot of other Armstrong supporters are saying.
Exactly. It says even if he did cheat, which several people attest to him doing as well as owning up to doing so themselves,then the author doesn't care anymore? Mainly because everyone else was. I suppose then you do not take issue with Boxers using PED's because supposedly everyone is. This is the line of argument employed by Larry Olubamiwo.
If you bothered to read into the intent of the article, it basically says that the author (as well as a lot of other people) is not going to quit supporting Armstrong based on this witch-hunt (which it was, regardless of the actual events). And he's not withdrawing his support, mainly because of the inspiration that Armstrong has represented for millions of people, in a very worthwhile cause..... cancer.
To ignore Armstrong's positive influence on millions of people, and to compare him with the boxers who use PEDs..... is to be a bit unfair, IMO. Tell me..... how many boxers do you know of who have inspired even ONE person? Most of the PED users have been known to be self-serving assholes.
Priceless. I knew the authors intent before I read the article because he has been pedalling the same krap for a while now. Despite that I still read the article. If you are a cheat you are a cheat, inspiring people by fighting cancer is another issue entirely. How about your hero Ali? Are all these PED using boxers self-serving assholes? -Vitali Klitschko,Roy Jones jr, Mosely. If Manny is caught using will that render his homeless rat eating urchin, to charitable senator story uninspiring? No, but he will still be a cheat.
The idea that Armstrong has done so much good for charity that it doesn't matter if he cheated is dumbfounding. Good people do bad things and vise versa.
It reminds me of a documentary film I watched about a Nobel Prize winning scientist/doctor. He is regarded as a genius by his peers. He identified diseases causing neurological problems. He basically saved tons of lives. He was also an unrepentant peadophile.
A genius, life saving child molester.
Daniel Carleton Gajdusek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think a lot of you are being niave. He quit fighting the charges because he knew they had him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzThat is a VERY Dumb article.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
It says the author still supports Lance, although it's possible he may be guilty of taking PED's. No different than what a lot of other Armstrong supporters are saying.
Exactly. It says even if he did cheat, which several people attest to him doing as well as owning up to doing so themselves,then the author doesn't care anymore? Mainly because everyone else was. I suppose then you do not take issue with Boxers using PED's because supposedly everyone is. This is the line of argument employed by Larry Olubamiwo.
If you bothered to read into the intent of the article, it basically says that the author (as well as a lot of other people) is not going to quit supporting Armstrong based on this witch-hunt (which it was, regardless of the actual events). And he's not withdrawing his support, mainly because of the inspiration that Armstrong has represented for millions of people, in a very worthwhile cause..... cancer.
To ignore Armstrong's positive influence on millions of people, and to compare him with the boxers who use PEDs..... is to be a bit unfair, IMO. Tell me..... how many boxers do you know of who have inspired even ONE person? Most of the PED users have been known to be self-serving assholes.
Priceless. I knew the authors intent before I read the article because he has been pedalling the same krap for a while now. Despite that I still read the article. If you are a cheat you are a cheat, inspiring people by fighting cancer is another issue entirely. How about your hero Ali? Are all these PED using boxers self-serving assholes? -Vitali Klitschko,Roy Jones jr, Mosely. If Manny is caught using will that render his homeless rat eating urchin, to charitable senator story uninspiring? No, but he will still be a cheat.
You're a regular Rick Reilly reader, are you? Anyway... I was careful to say "most" PED users, as I'm not prone to broad generalizations. But many definitely are (self-serving), in the sense that they have little other "society-improvement" qualities. Fact is.... nothing was ever proven on Armstrong. Never failed a drug test... was never disqualified for refusing to take a drug test. A lot of it is circumstantial, and "sour grapes" testimony from beaten adversaries and jealous teammates. A few posts back, I refuted some "evidence" with facts. I won't repeat them again, but you're free to look back and read them. Why Armstrong decided to give trying to fend off the USADA is anybody's guess, but only he knows for sure. Whatever any of us has to say is pure speculation.
By the way.... where did you read that Ali was my hero?
Just curious.
It,s just one of the many athletes that got caught for doping and has been able to elude it for a decade because his doctors and his techniques were ahead of the time. It,s like the Balco scandals, if it wasn't from an inside source, many athletes would have eluded tests; better doctors, new techniques...
There is way too many witnesses on that one and the samplers have been tested and re-tested and the labs who did perform it (including Chateau Malabry in France) are among the top labs in the world. Is he guilty? To me, 100%.
HOwever: the tour de France is notariously famous for being filled with enhancers users, back in the 60' the Pelissier brothers (Henri and Charles) were showing to reporters the pills and other stuff that they were handed by the tour managers in order to complete. At the time, the idea of cheating by taking enhancers wasn't spread neither much acknowledged.
In the meantime, these produces got prohibited and some tests (severe?) got imposed to find the cheaters but the cheating culture was already well rooted.
Though Amstrong deserves to lose his titles, what's sad is that he's just one of all those who did cheat, I am about certain that around 50% of the runners have some skeltons in their closet at some point and because he did win a lot, he's the one singled out for it.
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Originally Posted by Nameless
Then who should they award Armstrong's titles to? How can we be sure that the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. finishers in those races weren't doping? Should the race results just be nulled? If the USADA has taken it upon themselves to ostracize Armstrong and ruin his career and legacy..... they should be even-handed about it and ruin a lot of other rider careers as well. Don't you think?
Armstrong's last title was back in 2005. Here we are in 2012, stripping him of all 7 titles. Rightly or wrongly.... does this smell a little rotten to anybody?
Efforts to rid sports (all sports) of doping are anything but even-handed. Authorities seem to choose their pariahs and go after them like pitchfork-wielding villagers after a grizzly bear.
Now.... after the fact..... it's open season on the fallen Armstrong, and you can bet everybody and their brother will come forward with some "new" story about how Armstrong "did this" and "did that". Amazing.
:rolleyes:
As i said, it's not rotten because they only discovered afterward that he was probably using peds at the time, and the bureaucratic machine is waayyyyyy sloooow (almost as slow as the new testing techniques). So on that side, I'd say it's not rotten and comprehensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Nameless
Then who should they award Armstrong's titles to? How can we be sure that the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. finishers in those races weren't doping? Should the race results just be nulled? If the USADA has taken it upon themselves to ostracize Armstrong and ruin his career and legacy..... they should be even-handed about it and ruin a lot of other rider careers as well. Don't you think?
Armstrong's last title was back in 2005. Here we are in 2012, stripping him of all 7 titles. Rightly or wrongly.... does this smell a little rotten to anybody?
Efforts to rid sports (all sports) of doping are anything but even-handed. Authorities seem to choose their pariahs and go after them like pitchfork-wielding villagers after a grizzly bear.
Now.... after the fact..... it's open season on the fallen Armstrong, and you can bet everybody and their brother will come forward with some "new" story about how Armstrong "did this" and "did that". Amazing.
:rolleyes:
As for if the titles should be nullified or given to someone else (even though it does stink to receive a title 7 years retroactively), I think that they test al the samples they have spared from the racers behind Lance, according to the same standards and give it to the first cyclist who's in line behind him and who does past the tests and put a special rule that if the next 5-6 cyclists test positive, then the title is voided (which is the case for one of the seven but can't remember which year).
I'd advocate for something like that, personally. Thus said, the fact that Lance is a 500 millions charity caterer for cancer is all another debate and nobody can discredit him for that.
Well USADA has released a 200 page report describing Armstrong as " a serial cheat...who led the most sophisticated, professionalised and successful doping program that sport has ever seen". Eleven of his former US team mates have testified against him and it was Lance and not them who tarnished reputations and intimidated witnesses to hide the truth.
Yes looks conclusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
This whole Lance Armstrong thing still stinks to me. Armstrong, who has retired anyway is given a lifetime ban, whilst those guys who rode and doped with him get a six month ban because they stitched someone else up? For those guys still riding, that kind of incentive calls into question their testimony. And this is being spearheaded by the testimony of Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis....
If it wasn't for the guys like George Hincapie, who has nothing to lose, and as far as I can see nothing to gain from his testimony, then I would probably still be following the Armstrong defence. Then again, there's other people on his teams coming out saying they were never pushed or asked to do anything. I want to see what the UCI have to say before putting the final nail in the coffin, it just seems to me there are too many people with too many vendettas going on for anyone, riders, managers, journalists, regulators et al to come out with any credit at all.
This remains true however, and there are legacies that have been tainted in a much worse way. Jimmy Saville to name but one.
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Originally Posted by Nameless
This
Lance apparently isn't doing too bad... and more importantly... his Livestrong foundation is doing better than ever. Let's hope it stays that way. Seems to me that the good a foundation like this can do for cancer victims, far outweighs any "chest-pounding" the USADA wants to continue doing.
Lance Armstrong’s Livestrong Foundation: Surviving the doping scandal
The thing is that it's not only people testifying against him, many of his samplers have been found to be tainted by peds (only these things were harder to detect bac then) and Chateau Malabry is without the shadow of a doubt one of the toppest notch labs in the world. IT is getting quite hard for him to justify anything and his strongest line of defense, at this point, would consist in claiming for a world plot against him.Quote:
Originally Posted by superheavyrhunThis whole Lance Armstrong thing still stinks to me. Armstrong, who has retired anyway is given a lifetime ban, whilst those guys who rode and doped with him get a six month ban because they stitched someone else up? For those guys still riding, that kind of incentive calls into question their testimony. And this is being spearheaded by the testimony of Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis....
If it wasn't for the guys like George Hincapie, who has nothing to lose, and as far as I can see nothing to gain from his testimony, then I would probably still be following the Armstrong defence. Then again, there's other people on his teams coming out saying they were never pushed or asked to do anything. I want to see what the UCI have to say before putting the final nail in the coffin, it just seems to me there are too many people with too many vendettas going on for anyone, riders, managers, journalists, regulators et al to come out with any credit at all.
This remains true however, and there are legacies that have been tainted in a much worse way. Jimmy Saville to name but one.
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Originally Posted by Nameless
I still think that people should stop to beat the stick on him though, yes, he was guilty, just like many others, case close, move on, he has had enough and we should still all be grateful to him for what he did for cancer, 500 millions ain't a pocket full of pennies.
surprised ryan isn't all over this
Looks like someone wants their money back
Lance Armstrong must return all prize money, insists Christian Prudhomme - Telegraph
I have now read and assimilated the full 1000 pages. The verdict is in - He dun did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
I believed him until quite recently. But -
1) He definately doped. His denials are now akin to believing in the tooth fairy
2) He DID fail tests. They were covered up.
3) Also, he was NOT the FIRST AMONGST EQUALS as his doping procedures and system was far superior to others.
4) People don't all react the same to PEDS - He went from decent to unstoppable. Others went from good to very good. It was not fair even though they were 'all' doing it.
5)He wasn't just a participant in the culture he ENFORCED the culture. He was the godfather of cheating. He forced young teammates to dope or would terminate their contracts.
6) He destroyed the reputation of clean riders that spoke out - eg Bassons and Simeoni. This is public knowledge.
I could go on.
Cycling is a dirty sport as shown by this whole mess. Lance doped but everyone else doped, so what if his doping was better the point is who were the "clean" cyclists?
My main beef with Armstrong is that he threatened American cycling hero Greg LeMond....that showed a lack of class, a huge sign of disrepect, and truly showed what a bully Lance is.
The clean cyclists were near the middle and back of the peloton in this era unfortunately. Look at the story of Christophe Bassons as an example of the man.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Yes your point on LeMond is exactly right and is a trick he repeated on many people, women included. And on people that had been his friends. If anybody outside of his doping ring found out about it he attempted to destroy their credibility. Often he would launch lawsuits to much fanfare against people that talked before quietly dropping them before they went to court.
He told LeMond "I'll have 10 cyclists say that you doped" in order to shut him up. Armstrong knew LeMond didn't dope, but he was prepared to lie and destroy lives to keep his way...it's a shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanmanThe clean cyclists were near the middle and back of the peloton in this era unfortunately. Look at the story of Christophe Bassons as an example of the man.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Yes your point on LeMond is exactly right and is a trick he repeated on many people, women included. And on people that had been his friends. If anybody outside of his doping ring found out about it he attempted to destroy their credibility. Often he would launch lawsuits to much fanfare against people that talked before quietly dropping them before they went to court.
Lance Armstrong is getting what he gave...he could have been a success story and been the hero everyone wanted him to be but its sad it came to this.
In the end he was dirtier and meaner than many of us thought. Given the overwhelming evidence, not just of the doping, but of the coercing and the rest of his shady activities, it's clear he's getting what he deserves. On the other hand, I'm glad while it lasted that he did inspire a lot of cancer patients. This in itself carries just as much, if not more, weight... when you look at the big picture. The big loser here is cycling itself. It's a sport that can hardly afford to lose whatever fan base it has.
If Lance is to be erased from history he can say what money? What title?
Meh, being the best cheater in a sport full of cheaters should count for something. This reminds of the Bonds hate. Everyone asks how many of the HRs was he juicing for but no one asks how many of the fastballs he saw were thrown by juiced pitchers.