Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Not sure who the writer is but the logic is flawed. Where Freitas and Casamayor are concerned it was because of timing more then anything else. Acelino was not known and Floyd was on his way to the Arum break away. In addition Orgs were well on their way of using the calendar in order to ensure certain fights could not happen and especially unifications. Much like they do now. I don’t think the Johnson fight was even thought about and Castillo had already beaten him. And imagine the style matchup. It would have been about as enjoyable as Byrd/Jones in their prime. I’d have to hit myself in the head with a ballpeen hammer just to watch it. The fight I wanted in that time frame that had a short window was Shane/Floyd. That would have been something in the 130/35 area.
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Who names their son Vivian? At any rate he was another hype job with a punch with the boxing skills of a log and had not done squat to meet Floyd. Chin like fly paper.
Zu was a matter of politics with conflicting broadcasters and no fault of either man. I wonder if the writer made the same notation on his view of Zu’s legacy.
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
In case anyone was not paying attention this is where the depth of Arum and Floyds hatred of each other gathered its own taste. How many Arum fighters has Floyd clashed with since he told him to go play in the traffic?
Miguel Cotto (2007-2008)
Cotto and his team have went public saying more or less that they were not ready for him and I suppose I could g get the quotes if need be. Floyd had to wait on Cotto to be a free agent.
Paul Williams (2008)
In 2008 Williams split with Quintana who was a borderline gate keeper and then moved to 160 pounds. Sure he beat Margarito a year previous but that’s it.
Winky Wright (2009)
You have got to be kidding me? Not only was Winky washed up in 2009 but he would have never even been a mention. He was out of Floyds weight class for almost a decade.
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Not going to beat the dead horse. They are both categorically insane for not doing it.
Sergio Martinez (2012)
How does a natural welter duck a natural middle?

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Look forward to the response my friend. I think Floyds problem from a historians standpoint will be the time off. Smart sob from an economic standpoint cause he could have eliminated the crew he is about to cash in on.

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You wrote that? That's actually pretty much on point. I agree with it

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Well I never pasted it. Its my view having lived it.

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If you read the 3rd post on this thread you'll see we have similar views on this. I always found the Mayweather ducked Harris accusation hilarious

How do you even respond to such unadulterated bullshit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75J_oMq4_pk

Floyd's certainly an elite fighter of tremendous skill, I don't think anyone ever disputed that.

He just didn't test himself very often against the very best that the sport had to offer is all, and that drastically affects a fighter's legacy...

Produce a man he ducked? Then prove it. Those he supposedly ducked could be said to have ducked him. Somebody supply a fighter he actually ducked?

Manny Pacquiao.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Manny Pacquiao.

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Lol

Floyd Mayweather junior is more defined by all the top guys that he didn't fight.

Guerrero is a fantastic matchup. Elite guy in his prime. It's really too bad that Floyd didn't do these kinds of fights more often.
Unfortunately it's too late now, Floyd's too old. Someone's p!$$ing down your back and telling you it's raining if you honestly think Floyd is still in his prime anymore.

Well, I'm gonna go pull my wire to some 80s and 90s porn now, Keisha, Hyapatia Lee, Felecia, Tracey Adams,...

later, fellas...

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Willie Pep, Henry Armstrong jr, Roberto Duran, Harry Greb, Jou Louis, Benny Leonard, Gene Tunney, and Sugar Ray Leonard I guess i would say is my top ten.

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Ray Robinson: Tell me who he beat who trumps the guys Floyd fought in his biggest fights?

Muhammad Ali: besides Frazier, Foreman and Liston (on the subject of those guys, tell me who they beat that made them so great), who did Ali beat that was so much better than Floyd's wins?

Willie Pep: Feather-fisted so called defensive master who was knocked out 6 times. What exactly did he do that was superior to what Floyd did? Who did he beat that was so hot, exactly? Floyd has adjusted to every tough opponent he's ever fought: how come Willie couldn't find an answer for Saddler (and if you're going to go on and say Saddler was greater than any of Floyd's opposition, please tell me why he was and who he beat to earn that kind of recognition)?

Joe Louis - FAMOUS for his "Bum of the Month" club. I guess whipping guys like Johnny Paycheck and Two Ton Tony is a lot more respectable than a prime JLC or Ricky Hatton.

And the others, tell me who they beat? Do you have a reason why they are top 10? Or is it just because you read they were really good?

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Not sure who the writer is but the logic is flawed. Where Freitas and Casamayor are concerned it was because of timing more then anything else. Acelino was not known and Floyd was on his way to the Arum break away. In addition Orgs were well on their way of using the calendar in order to ensure certain fights could not happen and especially unifications. Much like they do now. I don’t think the Johnson fight was even thought about and Castillo had already beaten him. And imagine the style matchup. It would have been about as enjoyable as Byrd/Jones in their prime. I’d have to hit myself in the head with a ballpeen hammer just to watch it. The fight I wanted in that time frame that had a short window was Shane/Floyd. That would have been something in the 130/35 area.
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Who names their son Vivian? At any rate he was another hype job with a punch with the boxing skills of a log and had not done squat to meet Floyd. Chin like fly paper.
Zu was a matter of politics with conflicting broadcasters and no fault of either man. I wonder if the writer made the same notation on his view of Zu’s legacy.
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
In case anyone was not paying attention this is where the depth of Arum and Floyds hatred of each other gathered its own taste. How many Arum fighters has Floyd clashed with since he told him to go play in the traffic?
Miguel Cotto (2007-2008)
Cotto and his team have went public saying more or less that they were not ready for him and I suppose I could g get the quotes if need be. Floyd had to wait on Cotto to be a free agent.
Paul Williams (2008)
In 2008 Williams split with Quintana who was a borderline gate keeper and then moved to 160 pounds. Sure he beat Margarito a year previous but that’s it.
Winky Wright (2009)
You have got to be kidding me? Not only was Winky washed up in 2009 but he would have never even been a mention. He was out of Floyds weight class for almost a decade.
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Not going to beat the dead horse. They are both categorically insane for not doing it.
Sergio Martinez (2012)
How does a natural welter duck a natural middle?

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Look forward to the response my friend. I think Floyds problem from a historians standpoint will be the time off. Smart sob from an economic standpoint cause he could have eliminated the crew he is about to cash in on.

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You wrote that? That's actually pretty much on point. I agree with it

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Well I never pasted it. Its my view having lived it.

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If you read the 3rd post on this thread you'll see we have similar views on this. I always found the Mayweather ducked Harris accusation hilarious

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Agree 100%. I do think he could have fought Margarito for the record and found that whole 8 million dollar thing kind of lame

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Floyd Mayweather junior is more defined by all the top guys that he didn't fight.

Guerrero is a fantastic matchup. Elite guy in his prime. It's really too bad that Floyd didn't do these kinds of fights more often.
Unfortunately it's too late now, Floyd's too old. Someone's p!$$ing down your back and telling you it's raining if you honestly think Floyd is still in his prime anymore.

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You can't fight everyone. And with contract negotiations, you certainly won't fight everyone.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

I've had this argument too many times to indulge. It always goes the same way: everyone Floyd ever fought was either a total bum, overrated, washed up, too small, fighting at the wrong weight, or screwed over by the ref. And of course everyone who Floyd never fought would have been "the guy" who really put the screws to him. If people want to believe that, cool.

Who has Floyd beat? Well, I'll tell you what: you give me your top 10 of all time and tell me who they've beat, and we can compare it to Floyd's resume. Then you can explain to me how guys like Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olsen, ect are so greater than opponents like prime Jose Luis Castillo and Ricky Hatton.

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I don't want to have that argument either because I'm not guy who dislikes Floyd. I didn't intend the threat to devolve into that type of discussion. I wanted a discussion of legacy.

How about we start with Duran. How would you care to compare Duran's wins to Floyd's wins?

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Hey @Beanflicker - did you get a chance to read the above post with regard to Duran?

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

On a side note, there might even be an argument that Duran's performance against Hagler is greater than any Floyd performance, simply when you take into account, the weight jump, the risk, and all that. Don't forget Duran won many rounds against Hagler.

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Haha, I'd love to hear that argument.

Who did Hagler beat, btw?

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It's probably a losing argument. It wasn't the main point I was trying to make, which was to show the incredible risk Duran took in jumping to middleweight to fight Hagler, who a lot of guys ducked.

Would you rank a challenge to Martinez higher than a challenge to Hagler?

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@Beanflicker - or this one? Interesting in hearing your responses.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Not sure who the writer is but the logic is flawed. Where Freitas and Casamayor are concerned it was because of timing more then anything else. Acelino was not known and Floyd was on his way to the Arum break away. In addition Orgs were well on their way of using the calendar in order to ensure certain fights could not happen and especially unifications. Much like they do now. I don’t think the Johnson fight was even thought about and Castillo had already beaten him. And imagine the style matchup. It would have been about as enjoyable as Byrd/Jones in their prime. I’d have to hit myself in the head with a ballpeen hammer just to watch it. The fight I wanted in that time frame that had a short window was Shane/Floyd. That would have been something in the 130/35 area.
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Who names their son Vivian? At any rate he was another hype job with a punch with the boxing skills of a log and had not done squat to meet Floyd. Chin like fly paper.
Zu was a matter of politics with conflicting broadcasters and no fault of either man. I wonder if the writer made the same notation on his view of Zu’s legacy.
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
In case anyone was not paying attention this is where the depth of Arum and Floyds hatred of each other gathered its own taste. How many Arum fighters has Floyd clashed with since he told him to go play in the traffic?
Miguel Cotto (2007-2008)
Cotto and his team have went public saying more or less that they were not ready for him and I suppose I could g get the quotes if need be. Floyd had to wait on Cotto to be a free agent.
Paul Williams (2008)
In 2008 Williams split with Quintana who was a borderline gate keeper and then moved to 160 pounds. Sure he beat Margarito a year previous but that’s it.
Winky Wright (2009)
You have got to be kidding me? Not only was Winky washed up in 2009 but he would have never even been a mention. He was out of Floyds weight class for almost a decade.
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Not going to beat the dead horse. They are both categorically insane for not doing it.
Sergio Martinez (2012)
How does a natural welter duck a natural middle?

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Look forward to the response my friend. I think Floyds problem from a historians standpoint will be the time off. Smart sob from an economic standpoint cause he could have eliminated the crew he is about to cash in on.

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You wrote that? That's actually pretty much on point. I agree with it

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Well I never pasted it. Its my view having lived it.

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If you read the 3rd post on this thread you'll see we have similar views on this. I always found the Mayweather ducked Harris accusation hilarious

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Agree 100%. I do think he could have fought Margarito for the record and found that whole 8 million dollar thing kind of lame

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Thanks for the input. It was by Doug Fisher in his most recent mailbag in the Golden Boy-owned Ring Magazine. I've also seen that boxing writers tend to somewhat universally feel that Floyd's legacy could use improving. I'm not sure I've encountered an "expert" that doesn't think that.

I believe the distinction is that the writer wasn't suggesting that Floyd "ducked" any of these guys. It was more that they were good-for-legacy fights that were missed. Floyd might well have beat all of the guys, and that isn't really the issue. It's more that he didn't face them.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Willie Pep, Henry Armstrong jr, Roberto Duran, Harry Greb, Jou Louis, Benny Leonard, Gene Tunney, and Sugar Ray Leonard I guess i would say is my top ten.

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Ray Robinson: Tell me who he beat who trumps the guys Floyd fought in his biggest fights?

Muhammad Ali: besides Frazier, Foreman and Liston (on the subject of those guys, tell me who they beat that made them so great), who did Ali beat that was so much better than Floyd's wins?

Willie Pep: Feather-fisted so called defensive master who was knocked out 6 times. What exactly did he do that was superior to what Floyd did? Who did he beat that was so hot, exactly? Floyd has adjusted to every tough opponent he's ever fought: how come Willie couldn't find an answer for Saddler (and if you're going to go on and say Saddler was greater than any of Floyd's opposition, please tell me why he was and who he beat to earn that kind of recognition)?

Joe Louis - FAMOUS for his "Bum of the Month" club. I guess whipping guys like Johnny Paycheck and Two Ton Tony is a lot more respectable than a prime JLC or Ricky Hatton.

And the others, tell me who they beat? Do you have a reason why they are top 10? Or is it just because you read they were really good?

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What were Floyd's defining wins to you? What would you say are his best five wins?

Comparing 1983 Hagler to 2013, obviously you have to give the edge to Hagler. He was a monster in his prime who was killing everyone, whereas there are big questions now as to whether or not Martinez is on the decline. So who was the bigger challenge? You'd be a fool not to pick 1983 Hagler. He was a beast. I have no doubts about Duran's courage. He probably would have fought Holmes or Tyson if they let him. And while it was an admirable attempt, he did come up short. I could speculate all day about how Hagler probably underestimated him, but I'll stick with the facts. In terms of taking up challenges, Duran blows Mayweather away. I'm not saying Floyd was tougher than Duran, I'm just saying he was a better fighter.

In terms of Floyd's defining wins, in chronological order I would have to go with...

1. Genaro Hernandez
2. Deigo Corrales
3. Jose Luis Castillo
4. Arturo Gatti
5. De La Hoya
6. Ricky Hatton

Now keep in mind, these aren't the ones I necessarily think were the hardest, or even necessarily his best performances, just his most defining/important wins. For instance, obviously I think beating Shane Mosley, Cotto, Guerrero, ect is more impressive than Gatti, but it has to be acknowledged that the Gatti fight was a huge win for him in terms of getting his name over with the general public.

To clarify too, I'm not saying Floyd has fought better competition than anyone in the history of boxing. For instance, I think Leonard coming back after years absent and beating Hagler is more impressive than any of Floyd's wins.

What I'm saying is that Floyd's opposition has been solid enough to where you can't say he never fought anyone or took hard fights (arguments that have followed his fellow P4P great Roy Jones). He's faced enough adversity that we know he's tough, we know he can take a punch, and we know he can adapt to different opponents and styles, and we know he isn't one dimensional.

Watching his in-ring work, I've never seen a better fighter. It doesn't get any better than PBF. And it pains me to say, because I think he's a cocksucker.

One of the G.O.A.T

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Willie Pep, Henry Armstrong jr, Roberto Duran, Harry Greb, Jou Louis, Benny Leonard, Gene Tunney, and Sugar Ray Leonard I guess i would say is my top ten.

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Ray Robinson: Tell me who he beat who trumps the guys Floyd fought in his biggest fights?

Muhammad Ali: besides Frazier, Foreman and Liston (on the subject of those guys, tell me who they beat that made them so great), who did Ali beat that was so much better than Floyd's wins?

Willie Pep: Feather-fisted so called defensive master who was knocked out 6 times. What exactly did he do that was superior to what Floyd did? Who did he beat that was so hot, exactly? Floyd has adjusted to every tough opponent he's ever fought: how come Willie couldn't find an answer for Saddler (and if you're going to go on and say Saddler was greater than any of Floyd's opposition, please tell me why he was and who he beat to earn that kind of recognition)?

Joe Louis - FAMOUS for his "Bum of the Month" club. I guess whipping guys like Johnny Paycheck and Two Ton Tony is a lot more respectable than a prime JLC or Ricky Hatton.

And the others, tell me who they beat? Do you have a reason why they are top 10? Or is it just because you read they were really good?

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If you want to put Floyd in the top 25 so be it but calling him the GOAT is a different story. In your world the fact that no footage exits for Robinson at 147 makes him ineligible for the list.
Same with Greb,Langford, Gans,Leonard and host of others. And how can you right off guys people fought when there is no tape to support it?

You can call Floyd the goat but it is not a fact.It's an opinion. I can think of several people that could have beaten him in every weight class he has fought in. As far as those you mentioned;

Robinson was undefeated as an amateur and went 85/0 with 40 first round knockouts. He beat 18 world champions and 11 hall of famers and reached a peak of 128-1-2. I don't even think Floyd could carry his activity pace.

Ali fought in the toughest most competitive heavyweight division in history so if he does not qualify then no heavyweight does. Do I think he's the Goat? No.

Louis was undefeated for close to 12 years and destroyed the field.

Pep. How can anyone admire Floyds defensive prowess and not admire Willies. Lots of fighters are featherfisted and compared to the punchers of the world Floyd is. That light punching pale man went on to claim 230 victories. He had a peak record of 135/1/1 which is a ratio of winning that will never be touched. And speaking of Saddler he was one of the biggest punchers of his day as well as history who was also dirty. He would not get away with the stuff he pulled today but much of it was subtle and he beat Willie the same way Castillo beat errrrr almost beat Floyd the first time. Saddler would have been a handful for any feather at any time including Floyd. Saddler had Peps number like Norton had Ali's or Forrest had Shanes. And again lets see Floyd fight even half as frequently as Pep and see if he remains undefeated instead of like 3 times in 5 years. In addition the Saddler fights came after the plane crash and at a time when Willie was on the slide. There are plenty of featherweights that would have beaten Floyd whether they make some list that he's on or not. I think Sanchez would have wrecked him. So would Armstrong. Its to bad Floyd has never fought the likes of those two.


Lets have a look at Hank. Held the feather/light/welter championships at the same time and in a sport with 8 divisions and only 1 title per division. And if not for the Garcia robbery he would have added the middle weight title. All done by a man who would drink a barrel of water in order to look bigger at weigh ins. He went on a rampage in 1937 scoring 27 straight knockouts. That’s more then half of Floyds total output in one year. When Amber nicked it out in the rematch Armstrong streak ended with 46 fights and 39 ko's. He then moved to welterweight where he made 19 title defenses which is still a record today.

Greb fought over 300 times including 49 times in one year and only lost about 12 times depending on the source. He was only stopped twice, once because of a broken arm. As a middle he beat around 7 light heavyweight champions including future hev champ Tunney his first and only loss. He beat Walker and Gibbons and fought all over the place weight wise. He beat about ten contending heavyweights and even Dempsey avoided him.

Floyd could not even sort out a 50 million dollar pay cheque with Manny whereas Duran and Leonard fought twice in 6 months. Perhaps he's a victim of his own success but that won’t translate to legacy 25 years from now.

Look Floyd is a great fighter and I don't expect to change your mind about fighters from the past as we have been here before. Imo there are plenty of fighters from 126 to 147 that could have beaten him and you believe there isn't. I believe he probably beats many all time greats and you believe he beats all of them.

Floyds the GOAT at making money w/o doubt as most of those mentioned died penniless. Hannibal was one hell of a soldier and military strategist and I don't need any film footage.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

To clarify too, I'm not saying Floyd has fought better competition than anyone in the history of boxing. For instance, I think Leonard coming back after years absent and beating Hagler is more impressive than any of Floyd's wins.

What I'm saying is that Floyd's opposition has been solid enough to where you can't say he never fought anyone or took hard fights (arguments that have followed his fellow P4P great Roy Jones). He's faced enough adversity that we know he's tough, we know he can take a punch, and we know he can adapt to different opponents and styles, and we know he isn't one dimensional.

Watching his in-ring work, I've never seen a better fighter. It doesn't get any better than PBF. And it pains me to say, because I think he's a cocksucker.

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@Beanflicker - I believe we're getting to the same page. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that you rank Mayweather Head-to-Head in a p4p sense, very highly. You're not saying that his body of work compares favorably to the top guys of all-time. In other words, you are not making the argument that Floyd's best wins are better than the top guys' best work. Rather, you're making the argument Floyd would beat many of the top guys Head-To-Head.

I have to think about where I come out on that statement, but my initial response is how do we know how good he is Head-To-Head if he never faced a top level of competition. For example, at welterweight, he never faced Leonard, like Duran did, which demonstrates how good Duran was head-to- head. At the same time, Mayweather has looked sublime against good competition.

I should also point out that I'm not saying that Floyd's body of work is poor by any stretch of the imagination; it's only when we compare it with the best of all-time that we it appears not quite as good. If we were discussing Martinez, and while I think he is very good, and a Hall of Famer, can never be compared to the best middleweights/ junior middleweights of all-time with regard to resume.

I think another point you make that I agree with is that Mayweather had had the chance to take the same risks that Duran did in going up to fight Iran Barkley and Marvin Hagler etc., but he hasn't done it. It's frustrating, and probably makes people underrate him. I think what a lot of people want from an all-time great is the willingness to take risks, and for some reason, that isn't there to the same extent as the best did, with Mayweather.

Nooo, I'm not saying Floyd's body of work doesn't compare to other great fighters. I think the majority of boxing fans HIGHLY over rate the resumes of top guys from the past.

As boxing fans, the minute we started SERIOUSLY following the sport, we had certain "truths" nailed into our heads. The fact that Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest ever, that guys like Benny Leonard, Hank Armstrong, Willie Pep, Charley Burley, ect were these mythical legends beyond reproach, who would toy with our pathetic modern pugilists. That unless you weighed between 147-160lbs in the 80s, fought as a HW in the 70s, ect, you were in a "weak" era full of bums and have no business in the conversation on the "true" greats. I know, because I spent years regurgitating this nonsense like everyone else. It's bullshit. I know this is bullshit because whenever I ask someone regurgitating it, "hey, what made (insert legend here) so great", I get no response. People conveniently skip over my post or try to change the topic. He's great because... well, because he just is. Because I was told he is.

I've had people admit this to me on here, when I asked how they ranked a guy who they've NEVER seen fight and have never heard of 98% of his opponents over a guy like Mayweather, Sweet Pea or Leonard, who's greatness can be witnesses with a simple Youtube search. "Well people who knew, like old trainers and fighters said he was great." So basically we're ranking these guys on newspaper clippings and hearsay. People say Willie Pep is the greatest defensive guy because he won a round without throwing a punch apparently. All we have is the newspaper clippings. Imagine is Roy Jones fought in the early 1900's and all we had was newspaper clippings. "JONES DAZZLES, KO'S OPPONENT WITH HANDS BEHIND BACK". "JONES MOVES UP AND TAKES HW CROWN WITH EASE". He'd be considered the greatest of all time. If that was so, you guys would be clowning me here, saying "You think Floyd is the greatest?? Roy Jones won titles from Middleweight to HW, he was knocking guys out with his hands behind his back, you're insane."

Start challenging your own beliefs and look at the resumes of past fighters under the same criteria you guys use to slam guys like Floyd and Wladimir Klitschko.

As far as the 1 vs 1 comparison with Duran, Floyd never challenged for the MW title, but he also never quit because of a tummy ache during a title fight, he never got starched out in 2 rounds (and he fought plenty of guys that could starch guys quick), he never came to a fight out of shape and he never let his weight get out of control to the point where he had to fight guys in weight classes he had no business fighting at. I'll take Floyd over Duran any day of the week.

I just got up been waiting for your reply since yesterday since my list was already answered. Is there anyone else in my list that you would like to tear down that you would like to correct.

As for Floydes best wins Hernandez wo did he beat that was so great a older Nelson already was destroyed by Oscar. Correlas was a one of his best wins but before floyde who fuck did he really fight. JLC most people thought he won the first fight was defeat by few nobody's before he fought floyde. Gatti not really atg level fighter ever alot of heart. Del la Hoya big fan but he did lose alot of his big fights and was not a full time fighter the man was so rich i not sure how up for traning he was anymore. Hatton never beat a elite will in prime was smashed by top elite guys he fought. I don't really fell all of that is true but you saying who Ali beat then Folyde has fought bums hes whole career compared to Ali not even close as for others kinda was already explained but if you like i could explain Tunny or Leonard for you.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.

People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.

When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.

Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.

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You saw Pep and Saddler? How fucking old are you?

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I like Floyds ring skills over Peps and Saddlers. Ive seen them all on film as well they were made for each other styles.

Pep had good feet and was fast enough to work both sides of a man and in and out but in boxing hand skill he was given as good as he got at times.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Nooo, I'm not saying Floyd's body of work doesn't compare to other great fighters. I think the majority of boxing fans HIGHLY over rate the resumes of top guys from the past.

As boxing fans, the minute we started SERIOUSLY following the sport, we had certain "truths" nailed into our heads. The fact that Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest ever, that guys like Benny Leonard, Hank Armstrong, Willie Pep, Charley Burley, ect were these mythical legends beyond reproach, who would toy with our pathetic modern pugilists. That unless you weighed between 147-160lbs in the 80s, fought as a HW in the 70s, ect, you were in a "weak" era full of bums and have no business in the conversation on the "true" greats. I know, because I spent years regurgitating this nonsense like everyone else. It's bullshit. I know this is bullshit because whenever I ask someone regurgitating it, "hey, what made (insert legend here) so great", I get no response. People conveniently skip over my post or try to change the topic. He's great because... well, because he just is. Because I was told he is.

I've had people admit this to me on here, when I asked how they ranked a guy who they've NEVER seen fight and have never heard of 98% of his opponents over a guy like Mayweather, Sweet Pea or Leonard, who's greatness can be witnesses with a simple Youtube search. "Well people who knew, like old trainers and fighters said he was great." So basically we're ranking these guys on newspaper clippings and hearsay. People say Willie Pep is the greatest defensive guy because he won a round without throwing a punch apparently. All we have is the newspaper clippings. Imagine is Roy Jones fought in the early 1900's and all we had was newspaper clippings. "JONES DAZZLES, KO'S OPPONENT WITH HANDS BEHIND BACK". "JONES MOVES UP AND TAKES HW CROWN WITH EASE". He'd be considered the greatest of all time. If that was so, you guys would be clowning me here, saying "You think Floyd is the greatest?? Roy Jones won titles from Middleweight to HW, he was knocking guys out with his hands behind his back, you're insane."

Start challenging your own beliefs and look at the resumes of past fighters under the same criteria you guys use to slam guys like Floyd and Wladimir Klitschko.

As far as the 1 vs 1 comparison with Duran, Floyd never challenged for the MW title, but he also never quit because of a tummy ache during a title fight, he never got starched out in 2 rounds (and he fought plenty of guys that could starch guys quick), he never came to a fight out of shape and he never let his weight get out of control to the point where he had to fight guys in weight classes he had no business fighting at. I'll take Floyd over Duran any day of the week.

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It's a different discussion though who would win H2H between Duran and Floyd.

It's also a different discussion in how we rate historical fighters compared with fighters from the current era. There's so much that goes into that discussion, and we can have it, but for the purposes of this thread, I was wondering how Mayweather's CV stacks up with other all-time greats. Whether fighters from the current era or the former era are better is a great debate by the way.

However, for the purposes of this thread, you saying that Mayweather has a better CV than Duran? Do you rate Mayweather's wins higher than Duran's? If Corrales is Mayweather's best win, do you rank that higher than Duran's over Leonard? And how about Mayweather's wins compared to other top twenty five guys?

Also, a lot of the best fighters have a signature win. Duran has Leonard etc. Who do you think is Floyd's signature win?

@Beanflicker - will you do me a favor and demonstrate how Mayweather's body of work is better than the other great fighters we admire. If you would prefer, feel free to limit that to fighters considered great by many that we have film of. I would prefer to save the argument about older fighters versus contemporary fighters to a different thread.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Folyde has fought bums hes whole career compared to Ali not even close as for others kinda was already explained but if you like i could explain Tunny or Leonard for you.

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I'd love for you to explain Tunny and Benny Leonard to me.

And I never saw anyone explain to me why Ali was so great. I've never seen anyone explain to me why anyone was so great.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

If you want to put Floyd in the top 25 so be it but calling him the GOAT is a different story. In your world the fact that no footage exits for Robinson at 147 makes him ineligible for the list.
Same with Greb,Langford, Gans,Leonard and host of others. And how can you right off guys people fought when there is no tape to support it?

You can call Floyd the goat but it is not a fact.It's an opinion. I can think of several people that could have beaten him in every weight class he has fought in. As far as those you mentioned;

Robinson was undefeated as an amateur and went 85/0 with 40 first round knockouts. He beat 18 world champions and 11 hall of famers and reached a peak of 128-1-2. I don't even think Floyd could carry his activity pace.

Ali fought in the toughest most competitive heavyweight division in history so if he does not qualify then no heavyweight does. Do I think he's the Goat? No.

Louis was undefeated for close to 12 years and destroyed the field.

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THANK YOU for proving my point.

Floyd has been undefeated for 17 years of pro boxing. 17 fucking years. Do you realize how hard that is? Even if you only fought guys ranked between top 20 and 30 in the world, that's INCREDIBLE to be that consistent for so long.

But listen to yourself: when you're talking about Floyd, that doesn't get brought up. It's strictly "well who did he beat", but when talking about the old timers, it's all "he went undefeated for (insert time here), won this many in a row, won this many championships". You're even using his AMATEUR background to rank him all time. There's absolutely NO mention of the quality of opponents in your justification.

I know you mentioned Sugar Ray fought a lot more... well, so what? Tell me who he fought? Tell me why Jake Lamotta was a better fighter than Shane Mosley, Ricky Hatton, Miguel Cotto, ect?

You're quick to give Robinson credit for beating a bunch of "champs"... well, Carlos Baldomir was the Welterweight world champ when Floyd fought him. How come he gets no credit for that? Ohh, because Baldomir is a bum, right? Well how come the champs that Robinson beat don't get the same level of thought as to whether or not they were great?

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

@Beanflicker - will you do me a favor and demonstrate how Mayweather's body of work is better than the other great fighters we admire. If you would prefer, feel free to limit that to fighters considered great by many that we have film of. I would prefer to save the argument about older fighters versus contemporary fighters to a different thread.

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You're not getting it. I'm not saying his body of work is better. I'm saying it's on par with anyone elses' and his level of skill is better.

I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate how your top 10 fighters have a more impressive body of work than Mayweather. I've thrown down the challenge to you, or anyone else who wants to take it up. Don't try to wiggle out of it. I'm challenging your boxing knowledge. Take your top 5 to 10 guys (or even your top 25 guys, if you feel adventurous) and tell me why their resumes are so much better than Mayweather's.

Ray Robinson, Benny Leonard, Hank Armstrong, Willie Pep, I wanna know what these guys did that makes them uncomparable to Floyd Mayweather. I wanna know why opponents like Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olson, Joey Maxim, ect are more impressive than guys like Ricky Hatton, JLC, Diego Corrales, De La Hoya, ect. I really want to know. Educate me, I'm an open minded guy. I don't want to think Floyd Mayweather is the GOAT. I think he's an asshole.

Just keep in mind that when doing it, you have to use the same criteria as you use to smash PBF. Don't get lazy like Inuit and say "well he beat a bunch of HOFers". Tell me what their best fights were, what it meant, and what they showed the world.

I await your reply, good sirs

Mayweather could cement his legacy as an all-time great by ending his Showtime contract fighting Pacquiao, Alvarez, Martinez, Bradley, and Broner at the end of the contract. Most likely we will see this to end out his career: Khan, Alexander, Berto, Lamont Peterson, and Keith Thurman.

I'm hoping he man's up and takes the challenge of these other guys, but his history of choosing opponents says otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Pastor John

Mayweather could cement his legacy as an all-time great by ending his Showtime contract fighting Pacquiao, Alvarez, Martinez, Bradley, and Broner at the end of the contract. Most likely we will see this to end out his career: Khan, Alexander, Berto, Lamont Peterson, and Keith Thurman.

I'm hoping he man's up and takes the challenge of these other guys, but his history of choosing opponents says otherwise.

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Mayweather is capped out at 147. That is to say when he ventures north of that weight it shows. It even showed way back in the Oscar fight and he was just 150 and it has showed since. This is unlike many welters of the past like Robinson who went to 160 seamlessly. I think its a mistake to base his legacy at this time in his career with fights against men that weigh close to 175 at fight time. If he's going to fight one it might as well be Martinez and that's a year away at least.Thurman and Berto are most likely not in the plans nor Broner.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Pastor John

Mayweather could cement his legacy as an all-time great by ending his Showtime contract fighting Pacquiao, Alvarez, Martinez, Bradley, and Broner at the end of the contract. Most likely we will see this to end out his career: Khan, Alexander, Berto, Lamont Peterson, and Keith Thurman.

I'm hoping he man's up and takes the challenge of these other guys, but his history of choosing opponents says otherwise.

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Mayweather is capped out at 147. That is to say when he ventures north of that weight it shows. It even showed way back in the Oscar fight and he was just 150 and it has showed since. This is unlike many welters of the past like Robinson who went to 160 seamlessly. I think its a mistake to base his legacy at this time in his career with fights against men that weigh close to 175 at fight time. If he's going to fight one it might as well be Martinez and that's a year away at least.Thurman and Berto are most likely not in the plans nor Broner.

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I agree Mayweather isn't as effective above 147, but Martinez is there for the taking right now. Now is the time to fight him. Berto was in the plan until his loss to Guerrero. I could see Mayweather fighting him if Berto puts together a few wins over decent competition. Thurman is extremely limited and his promoter will continue to put him in fights he should win. I definitely could see that fight happening towards the end of next year if Thurman is active. Mayweather will easily defeat him. Broner is going to continue to move up in weight. I think that could be a huge fight next year, but Mayweather won't risk fighting a guy as young, quick, and athletic as Broner.

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Originally Posted by Pastor John

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Pastor John

Mayweather could cement his legacy as an all-time great by ending his Showtime contract fighting Pacquiao, Alvarez, Martinez, Bradley, and Broner at the end of the contract. Most likely we will see this to end out his career: Khan, Alexander, Berto, Lamont Peterson, and Keith Thurman.

I'm hoping he man's up and takes the challenge of these other guys, but his history of choosing opponents says otherwise.

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Mayweather is capped out at 147. That is to say when he ventures north of that weight it shows. It even showed way back in the Oscar fight and he was just 150 and it has showed since. This is unlike many welters of the past like Robinson who went to 160 seamlessly. I think its a mistake to base his legacy at this time in his career with fights against men that weigh close to 175 at fight time. If he's going to fight one it might as well be Martinez and that's a year away at least.Thurman and Berto are most likely not in the plans nor Broner.

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I agree Mayweather isn't as effective above 147, but Martinez is there for the taking right now. Now is the time to fight him. Berto was in the plan until his loss to Guerrero. I could see Mayweather fighting him if Berto puts together a few wins over decent competition. Thurman is extremely limited and his promoter will continue to put him in fights he should win. I definitely could see that fight happening towards the end of next year if Thurman is active. Mayweather will easily defeat him. Broner is going to continue to move up in weight. I think that could be a huge fight next year, but Mayweather won't risk fighting a guy as young, quick, and athletic as Broner.

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Yup I'd say Martinez is a little ripe but then again he may have completed overlooked Murray. I mean last minute training in the hotel room? You could be right but Floyd may look at that as a step down since the man he just waxed, waxed him. I'm hoping Broner gets his piece and then goes back to 140. Trouble is I think most 140 pounders at the top will be moving to 147 so Broners timing may work to his benefit. Perhaps he will fight a guy like Aydin. Should prove interesting over the coming year. September is not that far away so we should hear in a month or so.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

@Beanflicker - will you do me a favor and demonstrate how Mayweather's body of work is better than the other great fighters we admire. If you would prefer, feel free to limit that to fighters considered great by many that we have film of. I would prefer to save the argument about older fighters versus contemporary fighters to a different thread.

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You're not getting it. I'm not saying his body of work is better. I'm saying it's on par with anyone elses' and his level of skill is better.

I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate how your top 10 fighters have a more impressive body of work than Mayweather. I've thrown down the challenge to you, or anyone else who wants to take it up. Don't try to wiggle out of it. I'm challenging your boxing knowledge. Take your top 5 to 10 guys (or even your top 25 guys, if you feel adventurous) and tell me why their resumes are so much better than Mayweather's.

Ray Robinson, Benny Leonard, Hank Armstrong, Willie Pep, I wanna know what these guys did that makes them uncomparable to Floyd Mayweather. I wanna know why opponents like Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olson, Joey Maxim, ect are more impressive than guys like Ricky Hatton, JLC, Diego Corrales, De La Hoya, ect. I really want to know. Educate me, I'm an open minded guy. I don't want to think Floyd Mayweather is the GOAT. I think he's an asshole.

Just keep in mind that when doing it, you have to use the same criteria as you use to smash PBF. Don't get lazy like Inuit and say "well he beat a bunch of HOFers". Tell me what their best fights were, what it meant, and what they showed the world.

I await your reply, good sirs

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I think we're both being lazy. I asked you to show how he compared favorably to the top twenty five guys and you asked the opposite of me. ;D Neither of us has done it.

I also asked you which of Floyd's wins was on par with Duran's over Leonard? Did you answer that? I might have missed it; I'll recheck the thread after this post.

I want to make clear though that I never smashed PBF, unless smashing PBF is saying that he's in the top 50 of all-time, which to me is quite the compliment. We just rank him differently. I mean consider right now there are 17 weight classes in boxing and originally there were 8. I just don't think he's top 25. I think the reason is that I don't think too highly of his wins since lightweight. I think that's the bottom line for me. They weren't bad wins. I just don't think they're good enough to merit top twenty-five status.

Let's start with one of the top, otherwise it would take too long to post and too long to scrutinize on your end. Since Muhammad Ali is generally thought of as the best heavyweight of all time, which is boxing's most glamerous division, it's fitting that we begin with him.


Ali's body of work (feel free to add to it, if I failed to list a notable opponent):

1. Archie Moore
2. Sonny Liston - beat him twice
3. Floyd Patterson
4. Ernie Terrell
5. George Chuvalo
6. Henry Cooper
7. Karl Mildenberger
8. Oscar Bonavena
9. Ron Lyle
10. Bob Foster
11. Joe Frazier - beat him twice, lost once
12. Ken Norton - beat him twice, lost once
13. George Foreman
14. Ron Lyle
15. Earnie Shavers
16. Leon Spinks
17. Buster Mathis
18. Jimmy Ellis
19. Cleveland Williams

Considering that he beat Liston, Norton and Frazier twice, that makes 22 notable wins. Of course, some are much better than others, but we're talking body of work so I included a bunch. He also lost to Larry Holmes, Leon Spinks, Trever Berbick, Ken Norton, and Joe Frazier.

He was a world champion at heavyweight three different times.

He also competed (arguably) in the deepest era for heavyweights of all time.

Six of his opponents went on to be inducted into the Hall of Fame, which makes 11 wins over Hall of Fame boxers. Foreman, Liston, Frazier, and Norton are typically thought of in the top 25 heavyweights of all-time.



How Floyd's body of work compares favorably with Ali's?

The following are a number of ways I think we analzye it, at the very least a good starting point.

How about first we list Floyd's best 22 opponents?

How do Floyd's best wins compare with Ali's best wins, such as Liston, Frazier, Foreman and Norton?

Then let's compare Ali's era of heavyweights with Floyd's era of welterweights/junior welterweights/lightweights.

Next, although it is impossible to be sure, let's talk about how many wins Floyd has over future/current Hall of Fame boxers.

After that, how about we consider how deep Floyd's era of welterweights/junior welterweights/lightweights etc. compares with Ali's era of heavyweights? In other words, since boxing's beginning, where would you rank the last decade of those divisions historically.

In the divisions he's campaigned in, how many wins does Floyd have over top 25 guys? For example, at lightweight how many wins does he have over boxers who rank in the top 25 of all time? etc.

Last, with Floyd's top victories, where would you rank the opponents on the list of all-time fighters in those divisions. Would you rank Diego Corrales with the best of all-time at junior lightweight. Is Castillo in the top of the division at lightweight? Cotto at junior middleweight? Hatton at welterweight?

I figure that's a good starting point. Of course, I'm open to other suggestions on how to compare them, as I'm sure I've missed a few.

Thanks for the discussion!

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Nooo, I'm not saying Floyd's body of work doesn't compare to other great fighters. I think the majority of boxing fans HIGHLY over rate the resumes of top guys from the past.

As boxing fans, the minute we started SERIOUSLY following the sport, we had certain "truths" nailed into our heads. The fact that Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest ever, that guys like Benny Leonard, Hank Armstrong, Willie Pep, Charley Burley, ect were these mythical legends beyond reproach, who would toy with our pathetic modern pugilists. That unless you weighed between 147-160lbs in the 80s, fought as a HW in the 70s, ect, you were in a "weak" era full of bums and have no business in the conversation on the "true" greats. I know, because I spent years regurgitating this nonsense like everyone else. It's bullshit. I know this is bullshit because whenever I ask someone regurgitating it, "hey, what made (insert legend here) so great", I get no response. People conveniently skip over my post or try to change the topic. He's great because... well, because he just is. Because I was told he is.

I've had people admit this to me on here, when I asked how they ranked a guy who they've NEVER seen fight and have never heard of 98% of his opponents over a guy like Mayweather, Sweet Pea or Leonard, who's greatness can be witnesses with a simple Youtube search. "Well people who knew, like old trainers and fighters said he was great." So basically we're ranking these guys on newspaper clippings and hearsay. People say Willie Pep is the greatest defensive guy because he won a round without throwing a punch apparently. All we have is the newspaper clippings. Imagine is Roy Jones fought in the early 1900's and all we had was newspaper clippings. "JONES DAZZLES, KO'S OPPONENT WITH HANDS BEHIND BACK". "JONES MOVES UP AND TAKES HW CROWN WITH EASE". He'd be considered the greatest of all time. If that was so, you guys would be clowning me here, saying "You think Floyd is the greatest?? Roy Jones won titles from Middleweight to HW, he was knocking guys out with his hands behind his back, you're insane."

Start challenging your own beliefs and look at the resumes of past fighters under the same criteria you guys use to slam guys like Floyd and Wladimir Klitschko.

As far as the 1 vs 1 comparison with Duran, Floyd never challenged for the MW title, but he also never quit because of a tummy ache during a title fight, he never got starched out in 2 rounds (and he fought plenty of guys that could starch guys quick), he never came to a fight out of shape and he never let his weight get out of control to the point where he had to fight guys in weight classes he had no business fighting at. I'll take Floyd over Duran any day of the week.

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Good post. It's amazing how modern fans can't understand the difference between watching and reading about fights.

Rantcatrat, imagine mayweathers opponents all being heavyweights.

What is your end goal here.?

Imagine hatton as a 6,3 heavyweight with desructive bodyshots and cotto a mini mike tyson weighing over 220lbs.

Lets talk about the title pound for pound and what that means.
If floyd was any weight at any era he would beat every opponent.
Thats what the majority of people say not just the average mayweather fan.

I thinks its the fact that there hasnt been enough castillo fights (when floyd was injured) that people judge that the opponents need to be compared to other great fighters who havent had it so easy.

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Originally Posted by imp

Rantcatrat, imagine mayweathers opponents all being heavyweights.

What is your end goal here.?

Imagine hatton as a 6,3 heavyweight with desructive bodyshots and cotto a mini mike tyson weighing over 220lbs.

Lets talk about the title pound for pound and what that means.
If floyd was any weight at any era he would beat every opponent.
Thats what the majority of people say not just the average mayweather fan.

I thinks its the fact that there hasnt been enough castillo fights (when floyd was injured) that people judge that the opponents need to be compared to other great fighters who havent had it so easy.

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@imp - I have no beef with Mayweather. He's done incredible in boxing. He's had a tremendous career.

He's clearly an all-time great that should be ranked highly. @Beanflicker and I don't disagree on that point. We disagree on how highly he should be ranked and we are just comparing Mayweather's body of work in his boxing career to other greats.

To your points, I'm not sure Mayweather would beat every top welterweight of yesteryear, but he beats some without a doubt, and I absolutely agree that he's in every fight.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by imp

Rantcatrat, imagine mayweathers opponents all being heavyweights.

What is your end goal here.?

Imagine hatton as a 6,3 heavyweight with desructive bodyshots and cotto a mini mike tyson weighing over 220lbs.

Lets talk about the title pound for pound and what that means.
If floyd was any weight at any era he would beat every opponent.
Thats what the majority of people say not just the average mayweather fan.

I thinks its the fact that there hasnt been enough castillo fights (when floyd was injured) that people judge that the opponents need to be compared to other great fighters who havent had it so easy.

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@imp - I have no beef with Mayweather. He's done incredible in boxing. He's had a tremendous career.

He's clearly an all-time great that should be ranked highly. @Beanflicker and I don't disagree on that point. We disagree on how highly he should be ranked and we are just comparing Mayweather's body of work in his boxing career to other greats.

To your points, I'm not sure Mayweather would beat every top welterweight of yesteryear, but he beats some without a doubt, and I absolutely agree that he's in every fight.

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What welterweights would you put in front of him and why?

I am aware other great boxers exist apart from mayweather but the great positive floyd gives his opponents is frustration.

He's like a fly you cant swat.