Printable View
Regardless it was a close fight in which both fighters can say they won. Only one fighter can say he won in the 4th fightQuote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Rice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThe 4th fight was the only fight where there was no doubt who the winner was. The matter has been concluded. No point in having a 5th fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by 15rounder
Even Marquez admitted that Pac one the first fight.
The punch wasn't lucky nor was it the result of steroids but I still think he was on the juice. I saw the videos of Marquez dropping a guy in sparring with the same punch and I feel that when him and Nacho sat down and studied how they would have to knock Pacquiao out they probably saw one of the biggest tells in boxing. Pacquiao throws his 1-2 after leaping into range behind a feinted jab to the solar plexus. Thing is he actually throws that punch maybe once a fight. Eventually someone will hear you crying wolf. So as soon as he tried to lie Marquez simply stepped in and let his right hand go. The fact that Juan didn't see the punch land doesn't mean it was lucky but the exact opposite - he knew exactly where Manny's face was going to be and where his money punch wouldn't. I think Roach introduced this "wrinkle" after Morales 1 when he watched Eric simply avoiding that straight left by pivoting to Manny's outside whenever he saw the double jab. Now all that's great strategy and tactics but the fact that an infamous doping specialist was in his camp under a fake name at the exact same time just spoils it for me. A great win nevertheless but in my eyes tainted.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahmez
No offense but that logic kind of takes on the shape of a pretzel. He hired Herida as a conditioning coach and promptly got on the weights. He could have went anywhere for a steroid regiment. I mean why hire a past known distributor? Kinda stupid unless he wanted a good strength and conditioning coach regardless of the mans past. If he wanted to go on juice cycles the last guy he would have hired is Herida as far as the public eye is concerned and yet he hired him anyway. So its more then possible that he employed this man for his strength and conditioning knowledge. Again if he wanted to cheat, I don't think he hires this guy.
Its getting to the point nowadays that when anybody wins a highly anticipated fight in dramatic fashion they are labelled cheaters. It does not help when you have nut bar hacks like Kevin Iole suggesting his change was as questionable as Barry Bonds. People just cant accept that Manny is human after all. When little guys like Marquez put on a couple of pounds of pure muscle they tend to look massive in comparison to bigger men where such gains go unnoticed.
Marquez knew about the effectiveness on the right hand in the first fight. Its the punch that saved him. I mean it stands to reason because Manny is a southpaw and there is no better punch against one. It was the punch that made the next two fights as close as they were with many thinking he won at least one of them. So he brings in a strength coach to help him get the most of that punch by building up his overall body strength. I just don't see anything dubious here. They were infatuated by that punch and for good reason. He landed it often in previous fights and it was the money punch.
I mean Marquez fans could say that Manny lost because he was taken off roids because of his health once he left boxing and thereby looked beatable in the fourth fight. Or why he looked flat against Bradley. Or perhaps all fighters at the top are using one thing or another to gain the edge so both Manny and Marquez were juicing making it an even playing field. I choose to believe that Marquez concentrated his entire camp on landing that right hand because of his obsession in beating Manny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N_zBOzYD-Y
Lol at the pretzel comment, I eat them all the time :/ Following your logic Marquez could have hired any other elite strength and conditioning coach in the world yet he hired a man who was not famed for that field of expertise but rather for doping. This guy made up to $20000 per athlete per annum specifically for designing PEDs and cycles to beat the authorities - not for his knowledge of explosive lifting and plyos. This is from his own mouth. On top of that the guy uses an assumed identity? Come on bro don't tell me your actually serious? Let me guess he wanted to play where's Wally?... Or maybe Marquez just hired him so that people would think that he didn't have belief in his own boxing ability and then he would... surprise them! I wouldn't know if steroids help because I've never used them and I honestly couldn't really give a fuck if fighters did as long as the usage was allowed and stipulated in the rules of the fight but I gotta call bullshit when I see it.
It's hard to overcome the knockdowns from the first fight. Pac was an up and coming star... but his attacks were not conventional and he caught people off guard. Marquez was the first guy to somewhat solve that puzzle during his initial run and he got off the canvas after looking like he would be just another victim and put together a pretty darned good rest of the fight. Still, hard to overcome the first round.. and Pac did win that fight... but Marquez won a good portion of that fight, and Pac knew it - everybody knows it. Moral victories are not actual victories, though, so you are correct that the first fight was a Pac fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry RiceQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThe 4th fight was the only fight where there was no doubt who the winner was. The matter has been concluded. No point in having a 5th fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by 15rounder
Even Marquez admitted that Pac one the first fight.
I agree with all of what you say - because we can't know, we speculate. Recall that nobody ever got Barry Bonds to test positive for steroids... there were arguments about the fact that bat speed and all of these other things would not be affected by steroids. Still, he was affiliated with people KNOWN to distribute steroids and that really was the evidence that downed him, along with people saying that they saw him doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitQuote:
Originally Posted by jahmez
No offense but that logic kind of takes on the shape of a pretzel. He hired Herida as a conditioning coach and promptly got on the weights. He could have went anywhere for a steroid regiment. I mean why hire a past known distributor? Kinda stupid unless he wanted a good strength and conditioning coach regardless of the mans past. If he wanted to go on juice cycles the last guy he would have hired is Herida as far as the public eye is concerned and yet he hired him anyway. So its more then possible that he employed this man for his strength and conditioning knowledge. Again if he wanted to cheat, I don't think he hires this guy.
Its getting to the point nowadays that when anybody wins a highly anticipated fight in dramatic fashion they are labelled cheaters. It does not help when you have nut bar hacks like Kevin Iole suggesting his change was as questionable as Barry Bonds. People just cant accept that Manny is human after all. When little guys like Marquez put on a couple of pounds of pure muscle they tend to look massive in comparison to bigger men where such gains go unnoticed.
Marquez knew about the effectiveness on the right hand in the first fight. Its the punch that saved him. I mean it stands to reason because Manny is a southpaw and there is no better punch against one. It was the punch that made the next two fights as close as they were with many thinking he won at least one of them. So he brings in a strength coach to help him get the most of that punch by building up his overall body strength. I just don't see anything dubious here. They were infatuated by that punch and for good reason. He landed it often in previous fights and it was the money punch.
I mean Marquez fans could say that Manny lost because he was taken off roids because of his health once he left boxing and thereby looked beatable in the fourth fight. Or why he looked flat against Bradley. Or perhaps all fighters at the top are using one thing or another to gain the edge so both Manny and Marquez were juicing making it an even playing field. I choose to believe that Marquez concentrated his entire camp on landing that right hand because of his obsession in beating Manny.
Steroids can be manufactured that just help the body recover faster and when you have an older guy (comparitavely older) that starts a weight regimen and is trying to chisel, it is not unheard of that things are used to help him recover so that he can work harder or see a bit better results - he is an elite athlete, so a small percentage of gain is huge for him at that level.
I am not saying he did - I did not think that he did when I saw him or when I saw the punch. He is a counter puncher - one of the best we've got right now - and he landed a counter punch he had been looking for all night and had some success with early. Pac's momentum carried him into the punch. Perfect storm. Steroids or no steriods, that was a night-night punch, so the punch and the KO standing alone should not drive anyone to say that Marquez was using.
Exactly. It actually makes my blood boil a bit when people refer to it as a lucky because the assertion if you actually follow the sport is so fundamentally ridiculous. I mean seriously connect the dots. What I have to start doing is questioning my own sanity for continuing to point that out. Its like in order for that to happen to Manny there had to be something up. There is no fighting that kind of worship.Quote:
Originally Posted by justaguy
Lol I go at length describing how a punch wasn't lucky nor a result of steroids but actually a result of strategy and tactics and that footage of that same punch in sparring helped lead me to that conclusion and one of you posts the same footage to somehow prove me wrong while the other reminds me it wasn't a lucky punch nor a result of steroids?...
Before you quote this time maybe actually read the post?
everyone seems to forget the first knockdown, it was scary power, that marquez NEVER carriedQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitExactly. It actually makes my blood boil a bit when people refer to it as a lucky because the assertion if you actually follow the sport is so fundamentally ridiculous. I mean seriously connect the dots. What I have to start doing is questioning my own sanity for continuing to point that out. Its like in order for that to happen to Manny there had to be something up. There is no fighting that kind of worship.Quote:
Originally Posted by justaguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahmez
I assume that I am 'the other guy' - so let me clarify. I didn't reference anything that you said... I replied to iaminuit's thread - your quote was imbedded in his and I didn't take the time to take it out. Before you take things personally, try to generalize?:cool:
Really and truly, I was also replying to the ALL of the thread. Most of your post, I agree with. And this time, I am only quoting your response, so this IS directed to what you say, complete with my assumption that I am referenced in this one and the post above it.
I didn't forget it... I actually referenced it. I also noticed that Marquez was more flat-footed early in the fight and appeared to me to be really cranking some of his punches in a different way than I had seen him in the past. The first knockdown was more surprising in terms of how it was done than the KO blow, though - I will give you that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4lifeeveryone seems to forget the first knockdown, it was scary power, that marquez NEVER carriedQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitExactly. It actually makes my blood boil a bit when people refer to it as a lucky because the assertion if you actually follow the sport is so fundamentally ridiculous. I mean seriously connect the dots. What I have to start doing is questioning my own sanity for continuing to point that out. Its like in order for that to happen to Manny there had to be something up. There is no fighting that kind of worship.Quote:
Originally Posted by justaguy
Good point. If that kd never happened I would consider the k.o punch to be a perfect almost lucky punch. Seeing that first kd though( which is the same straight right he has landed on pac numerous times) made me think JMM carried more punching power which I don't think can't be taught by even the greatest of trainers and coincidentally their is angel hernandez in his corner or whatever he calls himself now....Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4lifeeveryone seems to forget the first knockdown, it was scary power, that marquez NEVER carriedQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitExactly. It actually makes my blood boil a bit when people refer to it as a lucky because the assertion if you actually follow the sport is so fundamentally ridiculous. I mean seriously connect the dots. What I have to start doing is questioning my own sanity for continuing to point that out. Its like in order for that to happen to Manny there had to be something up. There is no fighting that kind of worship.Quote:
Originally Posted by justaguy
Of course not, don't be silly..
He is Juan Manuel Marquez, 4 time undisputed Pacquiao slayer.... It is traipsing by on sacrilegious territory to infer that God's gift to boxing has it in him a shred of wrongdoing ---even if it is in the name of supreme competition and in winning.
It was just one of those moment of perfection..."perfectly" blessed that night... Despite hitting the Filipino solidly only twice in that fight, yet, instantly flooring him on both occasions just like a nobody, or better yet, just like a sack of rice.
Three previous fights proved different but only because, they were nights but of only the "blessed" variety. These fights registered solid hits from Marquez on Pacquiao, nailing the alleged PED user several times over, but it never yielded even a close enough result to decking him.
Until his date with "sanctity", which had purified his thoughts into allowing him as to be guided to find the right path in connecting with the right personnel, all in tune for the important adjustments, the formula, for the perfect night of "blessedness". In the person of one of the sport's leading nutritionists, Mr Heredia, the instrumental figure in identifying that refraining from Marquez' routine of "oral urine intake"' was the key to all of this needed improvement-- it was the final tweak that produced the perfect night of "blessedness" for supreme power in order to successfully deliver to him the final goods.
They were right! Perfect!
The "minor" adjustment was the "major" separation needed.... for it reduced Pacquiao from an eight-time world champion into a pedestrian, glass-jawed, and punch drunk mediocre fighter that he truly was. Pacquiao got exposed!
Add to this night of blessedness was a newfound unique ability to harness maximum power from within, that even in the most difficult and extreme defensive situation, he was still able to deliver massive knockout power!
Insiders to the sport were suggesting that the training Juan Manuel have undergone was so well-run that he was able to add cranking power as a result that could knockout anyone to even an unsuspecting "heavyweight"! Imagine that!
Mostly, boxers in on a serious battering, as Marquez was in prior to "the punch", can still draw power from within, but mostly much of its potential energy is already diffused, dulled somewhat to therefore be diminished of power sapped from the beatings received.
Having a perfect night of blessedness relieves one of all "human" frailties!
So there..
Forget drug testing all you need is to listen carefully and you can hear from a punches impact that the person throwing it has been taking the equivalent to Asterix's magic potion. This was made perfectly clear in the OP. Add to that the fact that one pound of weight added by those imbibing Getafix's potion is equivalent to fifteen on anybody else and Emmanuel never had a chance. Listen even more carefully and you can hear an insistent whining sound, like kids crying because somebody told them Santa Claus isn't real.
the only thing that is shocking is for the past 3 fights they had, jmm was never close to knocking pac down even when he lands squarely on Pac. then all of a sudden in their 4th fight he could suddenly hurt and even knock Pac out.
the overhand right on the 3rd round was even more shocking. i dont consider the knockout a lucky punch for Jmm almost always lands squarely on Pac. Was Jmm on PEDs. Yes i think so. now stone me to death:)
Yeah its funny how empirical works. That observation, experience and repeatability is a killer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
You don't think that after being robbed ATLEAST twice that maybe JMM changed his tactics and decided to commit to a knockout instead of being robbed on points again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Marquez said they were working on power... they said they were setting down on their punches... together with Marquez being known as a stand up guy and more so, his trainer know as an all time great and a living legend in training... NO... Marquez beat many fair and square... Manny was winning the fight and was VERY RECKLESs... he deserved it.
Hahaha, rats coming back to the ship in this thread;D I'll have to root for Rios if Rains and Pavlik start posting on the main boards again:-X
Marquez approached the 4th fight much differently than the first 3, is the thing. He really was flat footed and selling out for single shots, this could've backfired on him and in my opinion was until he landed the KO punch, people forget what a dominant round that had been for Manny until then, perhaps:confused: Maybe Marquez knew he wouldn't be able to fight 12 at the pace they had prior, he is ancient for his size after all. Would anyone have even been talking about steroids if Manny had not gotten careless and ground Marquez out over the next few rounds? Easily could've happened if you ask me, JMM did not intend for that fight to go the distance one way or another. Neither man had taken nearly as much damage by the 6th round in any of their first 3 encounters, listening to these lucky punch idiots you'd think Marquez just breezed through it all.
YES!! You would have to be blind to not notice that...Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryBoy
Finally! Someone who knows something!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
No he doesn't. Marquez put on 1 lb of muscle. 1 not 15.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykdadamajaFinally! Someone who knows something!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
How do you know that he just put on 1lb of muscle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
And what I said still applies to putting on 1lb of muscle, ESPECIALLY when you're nearly 40 years old.
JMM never hit Pac with a punch as clean and hard as the KO blow in any of their previous fights. Also, add to the fact that Pac was coming forward and walking into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
It was a perfect punch.
Also, consider that there exists NO EVIDENCE that PED's improve punching power to any relevant degree.
Where do you get 10,15,20lbs of muscle is the question?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerHow do you know that he just put on 1lb of muscle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
And what I said still applies to putting on 1lb of muscle, ESPECIALLY when you're nearly 40 years old.
God knows, usually when a fighter moves up a few weight classes the main thing that they do is to STOP HAVING TO LOSE SO MUCH WATER WEIGHT BEFORE THE WEIGH IN.
Gaining muscle is only a small part of it... why does everybody take a fighter's weigh in day weight as their walking around weight, or even their fighting weight?
:rolleyes:
I remember when my boxing club did a 24 hour charity boxing circuit, I was 12lbs lighter by the end of it, 48 hours later and I was only 1lb lighter, because I'd almost fully rehydrated.
So if I do it again, but this time for 12 hours and I only dry up by 6lbs, I'm heavier and I must have taken steroids, right?
Where did I say JMM put on 15lbs of muscle? That was a hypothetical.
What I said applies to the gaining of ANY muscle, whether we're talking 0.5lbs or 50lbs.
It is incredibly hard to pack any muscle on your body when you are undergoing insane cardio day in, day out. That is a fact. It's not debatable.
It is also incredibly hard to do it when you are damn near 40 years old. Our testosterone levels start to drop in our early 30s, sometimes even mid to late 20s. An athlete being physically superior in his late 30's/early 40's than he was in his mid 20's/early 30's is something that was completely unheard of before PED's became commonplace.
So for JMM to put on that much muscle (I gaurentee you it was more than 1lb, but that's a moot point) is NOT NORMAL. It DEFIES SCIENCE. It's not a question of hard work. It's a question of science, and the limitation of the human body.
I'm not saying he's necessarily even taking illegal PED's.
Are you aware of testosterone replacement therapy? That's 100% legal.
He weighed a pound more at the weigh in. He's not shedding muscle to make weight. Shit he was 4 pounds under the limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerHow do you know that he just put on 1lb of muscle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
And what I said still applies to putting on 1lb of muscle, ESPECIALLY when you're nearly 40 years old.
Yeah but that assumes he maintained the exact same musculature as before. He noticablely dropped some fat from his physique and obviously replaced the weight with muscle. I never said he put on 15-20lbs of muscle, but it was visibly more than 1lb.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
To look at it in a "143 - 142 = 1lb" sense is oversimplifying it.
And to be clear, I'm not saying that putting on a few lbs of muscle alone makes me suspicious. I'm suspicious of any 40 year old who looks as good or better than he did when he was 30.
And again, I'm not even saying I think he's doing it in an illegal way. Testosterone replacement therapy is 100% legal as long as it is doctor perscribed and declared to the commision. And since it's a medical thing, it doesn't get released to the public. I think you guys would be shocked at how many guys are utilizing this.
And again, I want to clarify that in no way do I think that Marquez's win was caused by PEDs, if he indeed is taking them, and I'm equally as suspicious of Manny. Pacquaio got caught by a perfect KO punch and got put to sleep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerYeah but that assumes he maintained the exact same musculature as before. He noticablely dropped some fat from his physique and obviously replaced the weight with muscle. I never said he put on 15-20lbs of muscle, but it was visibly more than 1lb.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
To look at it in a "143 - 142 = 1lb" sense is oversimplifying it.
And to be clear, I'm not saying that putting on a few lbs of muscle alone makes me suspicious. I'm suspicious of any 40 year old who looks as good or better than he did when he was 30.
And again, I'm not even saying I think he's doing it in an illegal way. Testosterone replacement therapy is 100% legal as long as it is doctor perscribed and declared to the commision. And since it's a medical thing, it doesn't get released to the public. I think you guys would be shocked at how many guys are utilizing this.
And again, I want to clarify that in no way do I think that Marquez's win was caused by PEDs, if he indeed is taking them, and I'm equally as suspicious of Manny. Pacquaio got caught by a perfect KO punch and got put to sleep.
I hear ya and I'm not saying he's not. If he is they are designer and most likely synthesized from his own piss j/k. The Manniacs just cant come to grips with Manny looking like a sheet of plywood when it was only a matter of time that he would be perfectly timed by the second best counter puncher on the planet.
Marquez is a career featherweight.
From young adulthood, say 18 years old to about 28-30 years old you fill out a bit. Boxers ut on a few more pounds over those years, move up in weight and so on.
Marquez was a featherweight until he was 32. He had one or two fights at 130 one at 135 and then made 143 to fight Floyd. At the weigh-in for Floyd he looked bloated and out of shape, like Duran looked when he moved up to welterweight. His next fight he made 133 and could probably have easily still made 130.
The exact same weight and strength training methods existed as exist today when he fought Floyd but there's a night and day difference in how he looked then and how he looks now. So much difference that there was enormous scepticism in the boxing press and the boxing industry that the change in physique at nearly 40 years of age was down to legal methods.
Marquez will tell you that it's all down to "hard work in the gym" which is the mantra of every steroid cheat of the PED era. The guy who is his strength and conditioning coach has zero qualifications as a strength and conditioning coach but has been convicted of producing and supplying various steroids and PEDs to Olympic athletes for years. He was one of the top PED guys in the world till he got caught. It was inevitable that a guy like this would eventually gravitate to boxing.
The Olympic Dealer [interview with Ángel Heredia] – BoxingSocialist.com
Great post and let me just say that I think they are all cheating at the highest level or at least the vast majority thereby making it an even playing field meaning cheating cannot be used as a reason for losing. Until the powers at be take their collective heads out of their collective asses to curb its use that statusquo remains. They most likely don't want to. Juice is responsible for to many highlight reels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
Thing is @Kirkland Laing that's not evidence. Its guilt by association. Not only that, I think its safe to assume that every sports nutritionist on the planet knows Peds and how to use them. If Marquez wanted to cheat he didn't need to hire Heredia of all people. There are some pretty hard core supplements out and about that are over the counter. For guys like him that work out for a living the effects on a body type such as his could be or at least appear to be pretty dramatic.
His opponent was probably a career junior featherweight and managed to accomplish something that has never been done in over a hundred years coming all the way from 106.Carpentier started at fly and ended at hev but never destroyed opponents on the way up. Many of the people who defended Manny are now the biggest finger pointers at Marquez.
One of Marquez's biggest changes in his approach to this fight was its desired conclusion. He wanted a short fight and based his training around it. In fact the muscle build up was well on its way in the third fight. He had already lost 3 marathons including at least 1 that many thought he clearly won. He was going to take it out of the hands of the judges come hell or high water and he did.
Reasonable people who can remain objective will acknowledge the empirical footprint that led to the knockout and yet not the knockout itself. I simply cannot get my head around that. It contradicts the previous acknowledgement.
No, no no! Can't you see that you've got it all wrong!? If I come home and a guy is in bed with my wife he's obviously just keeping her warm for me! PS your just a Pactard and he got KTFO so na na nana na!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
The whole "if he was going to do it, then why would he make it that obvious?" defense has and always will be lame. Add to the fact that PED guru changed his name and its pretty fucking funny really.
In the last 12 months I've gained 14lbs and my body fat is lower than it's been in a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
I do a lot of hours of INTENSE cardio every week.
If it's possible for me to put on a stone, then why would it be nearly impossible for a 40 year elite athlete, surrounded by a team of nutritionists, chefs, coaches, soft tissue therapists etc to put on .5lb drug free?
As long as he isn't on a calorie defecit he can gain weight, in fact at 40 his basal metabolic rate is going to have slowed significantly, making weight gain easier, almost inevitable... I'm sure he doesn't struggle to get nutrient and calorie dense food personally cooked for him round the clock...
Perhaps the change is because JMM's idea of nutrition has changed from drinking his own piss? :vd:
Apparently Pac condradicting yourself and flip flopping several times as to why he won't do tests for Floyd (I'm scares of needles - he has tattoos, I don't want to lose a drop of blood near a fight - he did it for MAB, it will distupt my training - he claims he will do it for lesser fighters now?) isn't suspicious as fuck, but knocking somebody the fuck out who keeps walking on to your counter right is?
Why can't anybody accuse Marquez of being a roid muncher without being a Pactard? They're both little ped heads :)
You don't have to be a Pactard to think JMM used PEDs, but all Pactards now accuse JMM, without the slightest hint of irony...