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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
27 years in the can is a long time.Also doing hard labor in a quarry in Africa is fucking tough theres no shade Ive seen them. I give him credit, he did the time,some of it hard time, came out forgiving and reflective instead of bitter and aggressive as most do. It wasn't available to blacks for so many years but when diplomacy was finally given as an option, he took it and ran with it.
There are still master and slave style of people in sth Africa,its called workers now but really they have to put up with a fair bit of stick. Ive met a few Boors who have large rural holdings and black servants and these Boors can be real hard headed assholes (a woman land owner comes to mind). Totally uncompassionate towards anyone except there own,they try to tell you stories to justify their own means of justice when dealing with the Zulu or Corsa workers (who in all honesty, 'especially the rural Zulus' need to raise their game if they are to eventually take over lands and run at profit).
There are barren tea farms because they expected the money to roll on in as it used to, mismanagement is a large issue, when you hate being told what to do,you cant tell when someone is trying to help. The Zulus for years wouldnt use condoms because they thought whites were trying to stop them from breeding,(The Catholic belief system there hasnt helped in that matter either).So they stick with their own beliefs instead of seeing that the world health organization was trying to stop them spreading Hiv amongst themselves.
The Corsa people are much more trusting much less aggressive and work in well with all others and are miles ahead. The Zulu witch doctors have much to answer for,their words are taken as gospel,Some of them spread the message that if you can make love to a virgin you will be cured of aids, this has led to baby and child rape and all sorts of horrors. There are some tough roads to be trodden in the rural areas still.
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Originally Posted by
ryanman
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Originally Posted by
smashup
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Originally Posted by
Gandalf
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Originally Posted by
smashup
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Originally Posted by
Gandalf
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Originally Posted by
smashup
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Originally Posted by
Master
Mandela has said himself that he did make mistakes and regrets some of his actions but without him there South Africa would have been in a worse state than it is now. The civil unrest would have been a lot worse.
Thatcher was wrong to not support sanctions and boycott South Africa.
You are all wrong to bring up his terrorism in the pretence that you think people are being hypocritical of his past. Stop trying to do a Miles, he does it with conviction and meaning – smashup you do it poorly.
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
You couldn't give a damn any which way as you just stated. Those facts are something you have never looked into and never would. This issue is not on your radar.
You were simply trying to score brownie points with your 'a terrorist is a terrorist' claim but you are so pig ignorant and stupid that you cannot argue anything that you say as it was all cut and pasted. It was just "let's post the opposite of 'miles'" and in truth you cannot back it up with a view of your own.
That is why you have stayed quiet when it comes to being real about British and American governments. You are all timid and shy when it comes to serious war crimes. You care about Mandela being a terrorist and cared nothing in all the threads I have made about serious issues in our country. You don't care about terrorists, you care about brownie points, but are so absurd that you fail to see that I am beyond all human checkpoints.
What are you doing in a thread like this anyway? It's a pose, you have no interest in politics. Suddenly Mandela is an issue? At least be consistant. My point of view is reliable. Your sudden dislike of Mandela is a weirdness.
Sudden?
Don't presume to know my thoughts on anyone.
And I don't read your posts about British or US governments because your opinions bore me and don't interest me.
I already told you this which your obviously still upset about :)
I'm so boring that you threatened to physically 'drop me'. I'm so boring that you have accused me of being a new member. I am so boring that you have accused me of being so terribly boring that my wife must be deaf.
Show me your interesting side Smashup because you are quite frankly fascinated and it inspired you politically.
I don't have to show you shit son.
Fuck me I really did upset you :)
Your weakness comes from your terrible childhood you had when your family split up right?
You like the English Defence League. But Mandela is a terrorist and anything else he did doesn't mean anything to you.
Strange viewpoint.
Also, Miles is more interesting than you've ever been. His stories about broken rice cookers are more interesting than your tales (and I use that word advisedly) about escaping the Russian Mafia hidden inside a high class hooker's fur hat.
The EDL is irrelevant to me posting some hard facts about NM and I've never ever been mixed up with the Russian Mafia so don't talk shit.
Don't do "tales" either and don't really get what your trying to say to he honest.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Why can't you two make up and bum each other already. Pair of gayers.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
This is interesting. I admittedly was not familiar w/Mandeal prior to his incarceration nor the details of his presidency. I have a hard time beating up on him for acts of terror considering the world he lived in. War is ugly. Regarding his presidency and after doing some reading of my own, SA was swimming in debt. They would have had to take on even more debt to adopt social democratic principles so adopting policies that promoted international investment was the best option. That being said
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Under Mandela's presidency, welfare spending increased by 13% in 1996/97, 13% in 1997/98, and 7% in 1998/99. The government introduced parity in grants for communities, including disability grants, child maintenance grants, and old-age pensions, which had previously been set at different levels for South Africa's different racial groups. In 1994, free healthcare was introduced for children under six and pregnant women, a provision extended to all those using primary level public sector health care services in 1996. By the 1999 election, the ANC could boast that due to their policies, 3 million people were connected to telephone lines, 1.5 million children were brought into the education system, 500 clinics were upgraded or constructed, 2 million people were connected to the electricity grid, water access was extended to 3 million people, and 750,000 houses were constructed, housing nearly 3 million people.
The Land Restitution Act of 1994 enabled people who had lost their property as a result of the Natives Land Act, 1913 to claim back their land, leading to the settlement of tens of thousands of land claims.The Land Reform Act 3 of 1996 safeguarded the rights of labour tenants who live and grow crops or graze livestock on farms. This legislation ensured that such tenants could not be evicted without a court order or if they were over the age of sixty-five. The Skills Development Act of 1998 provided for the establishment of mechanisms to finance and promote skills development at the workplace. The Labour Relations Act of 1995 promoted workplace democracy, orderly collective bargaining, and the effective resolution of labour disputes. The Basic Conditions of Employment Act of 1997 improved enforcement mechanisms while extending a "floor" of rights to all workers, while the Employment Equity Act of 1998 was passed to put an end to unfair discrimination and ensure the implementation of affirmative action in the workplace.
You can't say the guy didn't attempt to use government intervention to help his people. I think his real emphasis was working towards reconciliation and his diplomacy in the African continent. The man isn't w/o warts but I think his life is something to celebrated.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
His jail guard a white guy was asked yesterday if he could sum up Mandela in a word or two He said only one comes to mind and thats forgiveness.
He held no grudge to anyone.
I think he deserves the same. Be judged as you judge and all that.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
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Originally Posted by
Andre
His jail guard a white guy was asked yesterday if he could sum up Mandela in a word or two He said only one comes to mind and thats forgiveness.
He held no grudge to anyone.
I think he deserves the same. Be judged as you judge and all that.
Fuck that. We're not talking about infidelity, a drug addiction, or some other relatively minor flaw.
We're talking about killing innocent civilians. We're talking about torturing people and using horrific means of executing people (a favorite of the Mandela's was "necklacing", which involved filling a tire with gasoline, putting it around someone's head and then lighting it on fire).
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
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Originally Posted by
Master
Mandela has said himself that he did make mistakes and regrets some of his actions but without him there South Africa would have been in a worse state than it is now.
SA has become a shithole unless you count bodybags and rape as progressive.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Superheavy, you are right. Me and Smashup have both been going at it like a couple of gayers and it isn't cool. Will tone it down and hope for the same in return.
Beanflicker makes good points. It's all well and good for someone to forgive when they have tortured people in grotesque physical ways. Most people don't do that, most people find other ways to change the system.
It would be easy to kill a banker and then 20 years later when society is reforming say, 'I believe in forgiveness, I hold no grudges'. Well, it's good that you do, but you are still a very guilty person and you should always fall asleep at night with death on your mind.
I might threaten to push the Queen off a pier, but it's clearly never going to happen. When push comes to shove, I would just make her work in Asda: 'No easy answers for you M'lady, pack those eclairs. Faster. Don't forget, retirement is not an option'.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
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Originally Posted by
boyla
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Originally Posted by
Master
Mandela has said himself that he did make mistakes and regrets some of his actions but without him there South Africa would have been in a worse state than it is now.
SA has become a shithole unless you count bodybags and rape as progressive.
....actually that's kind of the Progressive MO
Love Obama's lack of self awareness in his speech "There are too many leaders who claim solidarity with Madiba’s struggle for freedom, but do not tolerate dissent from their own people"
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Mandela was also a socialist
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Mandela was also a socialist
Yes and that made him even greater.
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There is a lot of willful ignorance and bigoted prejudice dressed up as social conscience in this thread. There is a big difference between targeting government infrastructure and burning civilians to death with tire necklaces. Mandela recognised this and distanced himself from those who did not, be that MK or even his own then wife, Winnie.
Being a Socialist is neither here nor there, plenty of non socialist leaders have commited atrocities and many socialists have done nothing but work for the greater good.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
COPYRIGHT AFP PHOTO / ROBERTO SCHMIDTROBERTO SCHMIDT/AFP/Gett... on Twitpic
Funeral picture, CHEESE!!!!
Made him greater? It made him a dope...but hey he ain't my hero so fuck it, you guys idolize him all you like
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Because he was a socialist he was a dope? Your USA hysteria and propaganda that all thinks Liberal and left of that is bad is deeply entrenched in you but you carry on living with that ignorance.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
In the cold war you either sided with the US or USSR. Mandela sided with the latter and because of that yes he was a dope. Thankfully he did believe in peace unlike those who supported him.
“It is our duty to give support to the brother leader … especially in regards to the sanctions which are not hitting just him, they are hitting the ordinary masses of the people … our African brothers and sisters.” - Mandela on Moamar Gadhafi
“If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don’t care for human beings.” - Mandela
“Israel should withdraw from all the areas which it won from the Arabs in 1967, and in particular Israel should withdraw completely from the Golan Heights, from south Lebanon and from the West Bank.” - Mandela
“All that (Mr. Bush) wants is Iraqi oil.”
- Mandela
http://ajmacdonaldjr.files.wordpress...ela-118460.jpg
Peaceful though he may have become after his stint in prison his politics were terrible...no different than Che Guavera
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Most of what he said is correct where was the WMD in Iraq?
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
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Originally Posted by
Master
Most of what he said is correct where was the WMD in Iraq?
I've explained Iraq several times. WMD's were a worry but the invasion was going to happen because Saddam had not followed the sanctions imposed on him after the Persian Gulf War and due to that he was ousted
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
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Originally Posted by
Master
Most of what he said is correct where was the WMD in Iraq?
I've explained Iraq several times. WMD's were a worry but the invasion was going to happen because Saddam had not followed the sanctions imposed on him after the Persian Gulf War and due to that he was ousted
I am not going to debate this on a great man's thread.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Oh you aren't are you
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Originally Posted by
Master
She screwed many people over and made society even more unequal between rich and poor. She promoted the yuppy generation, killed the manufacturing industries, starting the selling off of public assets.
She remained in power because of the Falklands war, weak opposition and eventually got thrown out by her own party.
.....you seemed all to willing to talk about Thatcher when she passed.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Oh you aren't are you
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
She screwed many people over and made society even more unequal between rich and poor. She promoted the yuppy generation, killed the manufacturing industries, starting the selling off of public assets.
She remained in power because of the Falklands war, weak opposition and eventually got thrown out by her own party.
.....you seemed all to willing to talk about Thatcher when she passed.
And she would not support sanctions or boycotts to stop the racist regime. She and her party were always against ANC and Nelson Mandela.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
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Originally Posted by
Master
And she would not support sanctions or boycotts to stop the racist regime. She and her party were always against ANC and Nelson Mandela.
She didn't resort to terrorist attacks to try and get her way either.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
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Originally Posted by
El Kabong
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Originally Posted by
Master
And she would not support sanctions or boycotts to stop the racist regime. She and her party were always against ANC and Nelson Mandela.
She didn't resort to terrorist attacks to try and get her way either.
No as she was not in the situation Mandela found himself in.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
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Originally Posted by
Master
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Originally Posted by
El Kabong
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Originally Posted by
Master
And she would not support sanctions or boycotts to stop the racist regime. She and her party were always against ANC and Nelson Mandela.
She didn't resort to terrorist attacks to try and get her way either.
No as she was not in the situation Mandela found himself in.
Gandhi didn't, Martin Luther King Jr didn't .....I'm just saying Mandela was not infallible.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
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Originally Posted by
Master
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Originally Posted by
El Kabong
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Originally Posted by
Master
And she would not support sanctions or boycotts to stop the racist regime. She and her party were always against ANC and Nelson Mandela.
She didn't resort to terrorist attacks to try and get her way either.
No as she was not in the situation Mandela found himself in.
Gandhi didn't, Martin Luther King Jr didn't .....I'm just saying Mandela was not infallible.
No body says he was but he was a socialist so you do not like him.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
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Originally Posted by
Master
No body says he was but he was a socialist so you do not like him.
He's not a hero of mine. He EVENTUALLY did right by his country with peace and that is commendable.
Must I like a socialist? Is it required of me?
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
No body says he was but he was a socialist so you do not like him.
He's not a hero of mine. He EVENTUALLY did right by his country with peace and that is commendable.
Must I like a socialist? Is it required of me?
No but you should dislike them if they are.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
No but you should dislike them if they are.
....perhaps his years as a terrorist give me enough reason
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
My problem is this: leftist leaders, no matter what they do, are lionized. They don't have to bring peace to some war tore place, they don't have to feed the hungry or house the homeless or any of that they get by on the backs of propagandists. Anyone who doesn't espouse the leftist/socialist doctrine is immediately considered evil and everyone is happy to be rid of them.
Someone looks at Mandela they see a man of peace a man of greatness, a man who did good for his country.
The winners write the history books I guess....Mandela is lionized and for ending Apartheid that is fine, but dig deeper and you can see the truth.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K-eveBkOzY
Pledging to kill the whites.....sounds peaceful enough to me :shakehead:
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
You going to point to that as meaning all whites?
There were white men standing along side them singing it in the vid!
If they meant it,literally or whole hearted they would of turned on those white men right there and then.
Besides the obvious, they, the Corsa behind Mandella went for peace.
The Northern Ireland people in pubs still sing the old war songs too even to this day,you could point that out, but it wont disrupt the peace cause its what people do that counts not their traditional songs over graves and in pubs.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
The Northern Ireland people in pubs still sing the old war songs too even to this day,you could point that out, but it wont disrupt the peace cause its what people do that counts not their traditional songs over graves and in pubs.
Yeah and the N. Irish and the Irish aren't getting Nobel Peace Prizes now are they?
Amnesty International didn't help Mandela because he was NOT a prisoner of conscience. That should tell you everything you need to know right there.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
My problem is this: leftist leaders, no matter what they do, are lionized. They don't have to bring peace to some war tore place, they don't have to feed the hungry or house the homeless or any of that they get by on the backs of propagandists. Anyone who doesn't espouse the leftist/socialist doctrine is immediately considered evil and everyone is happy to be rid of them.
Someone looks at Mandela they see a man of peace a man of greatness, a man who did good for his country.
The winners write the history books I guess....Mandela is lionized and for ending Apartheid that is fine, but dig deeper and you can see the truth.
Leftist leaders get lionized? Who exactly? What you describe is your own political system and in fact your own political system is against the entire world through either actual physical invasion or else online privacy invasion. Either way, anyone who disagrees with America doesn't need a court of law, but a one way ticket to rendition. But yeah, criticize the lefties who don't really exist in the meaningful political world. It is the right wing manifest destiny types who are the real problem and they are so wacky that they sign up for Warhammer as any decent civil servant will.
Mandela is being flaunted by hideous zealots who themselves are far greater terrorists than Mandela. "Ooh, smile!" says wannabe butcher Cameron and actual butcher Obama as they smile for pictures. Mandela is lionized because he sold out to the butchers. If he had actually been left wing and refused to pay off debt incurred by racists, if he had actually nationalised welfare, he would have been ostracised. That is why Mandela is loved. Race is just the subtext, he perpetuated economic interests, that is the main point of Mandela.
Obama and Cameron will not be going to the funeral of Fidel Castro and I don't see Britain pursuing the policies of Attlee for much longer. Nobody in the Western elite looks up to or lionizes real political socialists. They have eliminated and condemned genuine socialists. Real socialists like Orwell have been used for blueprints only. Only the deranged right remain in power and socialism is almost a defunct term politically.
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Leftist leaders get lionized? Who exactly?
Ted Kennedy is one, Che Guavera, Mandela, FDR, soon to be Jimmy Carter
And why? Because of their INTENTIONS not that they killed someone, killed a few people, put the Japanese in internment camps, etc
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Re: Nelson Mandela has died
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
The Northern Ireland people in pubs still sing the old war songs too even to this day,you could point that out, but it wont disrupt the peace cause its what people do that counts not their traditional songs over graves and in pubs.
Yeah and the N. Irish and the Irish aren't getting Nobel Peace Prizes now are they?
Amnesty International didn't help Mandela because he was NOT a prisoner of conscience. That should tell you everything you need to know right there.
The guy is dead.
We know his past.
The guy was a crim (in the face of white law) went the way of violence maybe even murder personally who knows?
Got locked down and eventually dealt in forgiveness only and came out treating whites and blacks as equals.
Its the ending of his life people are celebrating here and they are the accomplishments he will be finally judged on.
More horrors have been dealt out by the whites over there over the century believe me I know enough of them.Iknow one who took the side of some blacks while in the army,hes never going to get over what the whites did to him.
The Blacks needed this to occur, they needed a leader.
