How Do You Rank Jones, Calzaghe, and Hopkins ATGreatness As Of Now?

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Originally Posted by mrodub

Someone just said jones was full of shit and hopkins tells it like it is come on hopkins made a load of stupid excuses after the calzaghe fight did you no he was sick thats why he lost(wink)
Also to say hopkins was a true middlewight champ at that time is stupid considering jones beat hopkins before he moved up in weight and the only person of substance hopkins had beat at that point was tito then hopkins was offered a fight with jones and weisled his way out of it over money.
Also jones is a natural middleweight for him to have beat ruiz was a miracle and to put him down was even better as i said earlier there has only ever been one other guy to do that and that was in the days when heavys were only the size of todays light heavys.In his prime he was one of the most talented fighter to ever grace the ring what is hopkins legacy he wins fine but how faking low blows and holding wow great champion

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Actually the majority of ringside press had Hopkins winning the Calzaghe fight, and even if you think he lost, the mere admission that it was close implies it could have gone either way (if a fight is a split decision, most of the time the losing fighter has a gripe). Also how is it 'stupid' to say Hopkins is the true middleweight champ, considering he won the belt Roy VACATED. Everyone knows Roy beat him, unfortunately, when you move up in weight, you don't take your belts with you, otherwise Roy would have entered the Ruiz fight as the reigning middleweight, supermiddleweight, and light heavyweight champion. (and lastly, anyone who puts the fall through of the Jones-Hopkins rematch on only one of the fighters is blinded by the fact that NEITHER one of them saw it as their priority).

Hopkins
Jones
Calzaghe

On technicals and a dose or reality,Calzaghe must be respected for defeating the two.Hopkins was nip & tuck with him but Joe deserved it.Jones was devestating last night.....but I feel you could see that coming.Honestly.Im not doubting Joes greatness,but Ive lived with Hopkins and Jones from day 1 here and we are not even talking 'Prime 4 prime' ,need aspirin!

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by match

Actually, I will downplay Roy's accomplishment, because his 'accomplishments' are the only thing preventing me from ranking him #1. Accomplishments are not what 'would' someone do, it's what 'did' someone do. It's like saying how would Jack Dempsey do if he fought Tony Tucker, (he'd probably lose), however Dempsey ranks higher because of what he 'did.' No one's saying Roy's competition is sh!t, we're saying both he and Joe's level of competition is far below B-Hop's, and therefore it's frivolous to compare two things that are subpar to begin with. Also, since when did we start giving ATG's credit for beating people who merely 'aren't pushovers?' I thought the whole point of this was pointing out career highlights, not career fillers.

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Where in my post did I say I give credit to people for something they haven't done? You need to work on your reading comprehension.

I said Ruiz was no pushover AT HEAVYWEIGHT. So for someone to come up 2 weight divisions and and beat a SOLID fighter 40-50lbs bigger than him is absolutely incredible. If you can't see that then you have absolutely NO boxing knowledge whatsoever.

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Actually, you're the one who should get hooked on phonics. You just asked 'How would Calzaghe have done if he would have fought.....' And instead of trying to hurl immature insults at someone for merely disagreeing with you, ask yourself why NO ONE brings up Leonard's win over Donny Lalonde when speaking of his accomplishments. Because to most, it really doesn't matter how high you move up if you aren't willing to do so to face a great fighter.

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Originally Posted by intoccabile

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by intoccabile

Missed my point completely.

"If you line up 50 men and make Jones, hopkins, calzaghe fight all 50.
Who would defeat them all? That's the question."

and don't be dumb. Let's not theorize and guess that Cal or Hopkins would have both defeated both their opposition.. because they didn't fight them. You can only give credit for the fights that have taken place. And hopkins has a stronger resume. Its not even arguable.

Big names on the list, a long title reign, and incredible longevity.

Roy has accolades in the sport that surpass joes aswell. What does joe have? He has no accomplishments other than his Reign in 1 division and 3 names.
Be real.

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Err.. i don't think so. What's the difference between guessing who would win the most out of 50 fantasy matches and guessing who would win should they face each others comp?

It's both equally IMPOSSIBLE to determine the outcome.

"You can only give credit for the fights that have taken place" Exactly!!!

Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. Fact. So theorise and guess all you like about the "50 men" and you will ALWAYS get Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. ;)

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The fights that have taken place tell me that Hopkins has a much better Resume than Calzaghe and can defeat stronger opposition based on his resume. I never once discredited calzaghes win over hopkins. But i clearly stated Hopkins can possibly defeat more opposition, and the Loss to Calzaghe is disputeable.

The 50 fighters infront of them quote is perfectly valid, because it proves a point.
Although Cal defeated hopkins, does he defeat the other 49? Based on both of their resumes and hopkins wins over better comp - on paper - hopkins easily is the better fighter.

What don't you understand? We can't sit here and say what would or could have happened. On paper, hopkins shits all over joe calzaghe. and so does roy jones

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You're the one that don't understand. You keep contradicting yourself.

You rate Hopkins higher than Joe because you THINK Hopkins would beat MORE higher calibre fighters than Joe. You THINK. You can't PROVE it. You THINK it.

You THINK Hopkins record is better than Calzaghes? Would Joe have struggled with Tito or Oscar? Tarver and Winky?

I could equally claim i THINK Hopkins would lose to Kessler and Eubank. I can't prove it though.

The only PROVABLE thing is Hopkins LOST to Joe. No excuses. Hopkins LOST to Joe.

Therefore Joe is better. Fact.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by intoccabile

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Err.. i don't think so. What's the difference between guessing who would win the most out of 50 fantasy matches and guessing who would win should they face each others comp?

It's both equally IMPOSSIBLE to determine the outcome.

"You can only give credit for the fights that have taken place" Exactly!!!

Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. Fact. So theorise and guess all you like about the "50 men" and you will ALWAYS get Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. ;)

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The fights that have taken place tell me that Hopkins has a much better Resume than Calzaghe and can defeat stronger opposition based on his resume. I never once discredited calzaghes win over hopkins. But i clearly stated Hopkins can possibly defeat more opposition, and the Loss to Calzaghe is disputeable.

The 50 fighters infront of them quote is perfectly valid, because it proves a point.
Although Cal defeated hopkins, does he defeat the other 49? Based on both of their resumes and hopkins wins over better comp - on paper - hopkins easily is the better fighter.

What don't you understand? We can't sit here and say what would or could have happened. On paper, hopkins shits all over joe calzaghe. and so does roy jones

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You're the one that don't understand. You keep contradicting yourself.

You rate Hopkins higher than Joe because you THINK Hopkins would beat MORE higher calibre fighters than Joe. You THINK. You can't PROVE it. You THINK it.

You THINK Hopkins record is better than Calzaghes? Would Joe have struggled with Tito or Oscar? Tarver and Winky?

I could equally claim i THINK Hopkins would lose to Kessler and Eubank. I can't prove it though.

The only PROVABLE thing is Hopkins LOST to Joe. No excuses. Hopkins LOST to Joe.

Therefore Joe is better. Fact.

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I clearly said, BASED ON THEIR RESUMES!
Jesus christ. The statistics do not lie. And i repeat.
ON PAPER.. HOPKINS SHITS ALL OVER JOE CALZAGHE
ITS A FACT.. Joe's accomplishments and resume doesnt even come CLOSE

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Originally Posted by intoccabile

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by intoccabile

The fights that have taken place tell me that Hopkins has a much better Resume than Calzaghe and can defeat stronger opposition based on his resume. I never once discredited calzaghes win over hopkins. But i clearly stated Hopkins can possibly defeat more opposition, and the Loss to Calzaghe is disputeable.

The 50 fighters infront of them quote is perfectly valid, because it proves a point.
Although Cal defeated hopkins, does he defeat the other 49? Based on both of their resumes and hopkins wins over better comp - on paper - hopkins easily is the better fighter.

What don't you understand? We can't sit here and say what would or could have happened. On paper, hopkins shits all over joe calzaghe. and so does roy jones

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You're the one that don't understand. You keep contradicting yourself.

You rate Hopkins higher than Joe because you THINK Hopkins would beat MORE higher calibre fighters than Joe. You THINK. You can't PROVE it. You THINK it.

You THINK Hopkins record is better than Calzaghes? Would Joe have struggled with Tito or Oscar? Tarver and Winky?

I could equally claim i THINK Hopkins would lose to Kessler and Eubank. I can't prove it though.

The only PROVABLE thing is Hopkins LOST to Joe. No excuses. Hopkins LOST to Joe.

Therefore Joe is better. Fact.

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I clearly said, BASED ON THEIR RESUMES!
Jesus christ. The statistics do not lie. And i repeat.
ON PAPER.. HOPKINS SHITS ALL OVER JOE CALZAGHE
ITS A FACT.. Joe's accomplishments and resume doesnt even come CLOSE

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So Hopkins resume, that includes a LOSS to Joe Calzaghe, is better than Joe Calzaghe's who has lost to NO-ONE!!!

ON PAPER Joe Calzaghe BEAT Roy Jones!!!

In REALITY Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. The statistics don't lie. That is the ONLY fact. Fact.

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Originally Posted by match

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Originally Posted by mrodub

Someone just said jones was full of shit and hopkins tells it like it is come on hopkins made a load of stupid excuses after the calzaghe fight did you no he was sick thats why he lost(wink)
Also to say hopkins was a true middlewight champ at that time is stupid considering jones beat hopkins before he moved up in weight and the only person of substance hopkins had beat at that point was tito then hopkins was offered a fight with jones and weisled his way out of it over money.
Also jones is a natural middleweight for him to have beat ruiz was a miracle and to put him down was even better as i said earlier there has only ever been one other guy to do that and that was in the days when heavys were only the size of todays light heavys.In his prime he was one of the most talented fighter to ever grace the ring what is hopkins legacy he wins fine but how faking low blows and holding wow great champion

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Actually the majority of ringside press had Hopkins winning the Calzaghe fight, and even if you think he lost, the mere admission that it was close implies it could have gone either way (if a fight is a split decision, most of the time the losing fighter has a gripe). Also how is it 'stupid' to say Hopkins is the true middleweight champ, considering he won the belt Roy VACATED. Everyone knows Roy beat him, unfortunately, when you move up in weight, you don't take your belts with you, otherwise Roy would have entered the Ruiz fight as the reigning middleweight, supermiddleweight, and light heavyweight champion. (and lastly, anyone who puts the fall through of the Jones-Hopkins rematch on only one of the fighters is blinded by the fact that NEITHER one of them saw it as their priority).

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At what poit did i question the scoring of the calzage hopkins match?
I didnt i said hopkins came up with stupid excses which he did
What you said in your orignal post was guys like jones collect trinkets for titles and hopkins was the true middleweight champ

"The real middleweight champ was Hopkins. The real heavyweight champ was Lennox. All those guys did was pick up trinckets, not titles."

Well sorry no his titles were not trinkets they were genuine titles the only one i can agree with is the lennox lewis bit, to be the true champ you have to beat the champ not lose to him and then get his vacant title because he feels your not good enough to bother competing with anymore,hopkins was a champ but hardly the true champ
The implication above is jones did not beat lewis so he was not the real heavyweight champ fair enough, but to put hopkins in that bracket as well is stupid
Last it was clearly a prioroty for hopkins who ran his mouth off about fighting jones after he beat titto he called him out by name but when jones responded hopkins backed out because of money nothing to do with the fact RJJ said he was gonna move up a weight and b hop did not expect him to say yes LOL

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by intoccabile

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Originally Posted by Fenster

You're the one that don't understand. You keep contradicting yourself.

You rate Hopkins higher than Joe because you THINK Hopkins would beat MORE higher calibre fighters than Joe. You THINK. You can't PROVE it. You THINK it.

You THINK Hopkins record is better than Calzaghes? Would Joe have struggled with Tito or Oscar? Tarver and Winky?

I could equally claim i THINK Hopkins would lose to Kessler and Eubank. I can't prove it though.

The only PROVABLE thing is Hopkins LOST to Joe. No excuses. Hopkins LOST to Joe.

Therefore Joe is better. Fact.

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I clearly said, BASED ON THEIR RESUMES!
Jesus christ. The statistics do not lie. And i repeat.
ON PAPER.. HOPKINS SHITS ALL OVER JOE CALZAGHE
ITS A FACT.. Joe's accomplishments and resume doesnt even come CLOSE

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So Hopkins resume, that includes a LOSS to Joe Calzaghe, is better than Joe Calzaghe's who has lost to NO-ONE!!!

ON PAPER Joe Calzaghe BEAT Roy Jones!!!

In REALITY Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. The statistics don't lie. That is the ONLY fact. Fact.

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Yes.. because i happen to know that You can lose to someone and still be greater than them. Are you going to tell me that Jermain Taylor, who beat hopkins twice, is greater than Bernard Hopkins now?

Joes resume has NOTHING on hopkins. Hopkins has fought a great list of fighters with big names, has been in the spot light for a very long time, CONTINUES to dominate at this age/stage of his career, has the 23 defenses and a decade as champion under his belt. and his close fight with Calzaghe is ANOTHER achievement.

on paper hopkins is the better man bro, i dont see how it can even be disputed.
None the less, we'll have to agree to disagree... I have to be at the gym in 30 minutes.
+rep for the arguement. Good points, maybe we'll bump heads later.

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Originally Posted by mrodub

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Originally Posted by match

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Originally Posted by mrodub

Someone just said jones was full of shit and hopkins tells it like it is come on hopkins made a load of stupid excuses after the calzaghe fight did you no he was sick thats why he lost(wink)
Also to say hopkins was a true middlewight champ at that time is stupid considering jones beat hopkins before he moved up in weight and the only person of substance hopkins had beat at that point was tito then hopkins was offered a fight with jones and weisled his way out of it over money.
Also jones is a natural middleweight for him to have beat ruiz was a miracle and to put him down was even better as i said earlier there has only ever been one other guy to do that and that was in the days when heavys were only the size of todays light heavys.In his prime he was one of the most talented fighter to ever grace the ring what is hopkins legacy he wins fine but how faking low blows and holding wow great champion

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Actually the majority of ringside press had Hopkins winning the Calzaghe fight, and even if you think he lost, the mere admission that it was close implies it could have gone either way (if a fight is a split decision, most of the time the losing fighter has a gripe). Also how is it 'stupid' to say Hopkins is the true middleweight champ, considering he won the belt Roy VACATED. Everyone knows Roy beat him, unfortunately, when you move up in weight, you don't take your belts with you, otherwise Roy would have entered the Ruiz fight as the reigning middleweight, supermiddleweight, and light heavyweight champion. (and lastly, anyone who puts the fall through of the Jones-Hopkins rematch on only one of the fighters is blinded by the fact that NEITHER one of them saw it as their priority).

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At what poit did i question the scoring of the calzage hopkins match?
I didnt i said hopkins came up with stupid excses which he did
What you said in your orignal post was guys like jones collect trinkets for titles and hopkins was the true middleweight champ

"The real middleweight champ was Hopkins. The real heavyweight champ was Lennox. All those guys did was pick up trinckets, not titles."

Well sorry no his titles were not trinkets they were genuine titles the only one i can agree with is the lennox lewis bit, to be the true champ you have to beat the champ not lose to him and then get his vacant title because he feels your not good enough to bother competing with anymore,hopkins was a champ but hardly the true champ
The implication above is jones did not beat lewis so he was not the real heavyweight champ fair enough, but to put hopkins in that bracket as well is stupid
Last it was clearly a prioroty for hopkins who ran his mouth off about fighting jones after he beat titto he called him out by name but when jones responded hopkins backed out because of money nothing to do with the fact RJJ said he was gonna move up a weight and b hop did not expect him to say yes LOL

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Jones did THE EXACT same thing Hopkins did, hide behind money. EVERYONE thought Tito would beat Hopkins and EVERYONE was set for Trinidad-Jones at 168 the very next fight. At NO POINT DID ROY EVER bring up percentages when THAT was the plan. However, as soon as Hopkins won, now BOTH fighters start talking about what they will not accept. That is an indication that BOTH fighters would rather pursue other options. And I know you didn't question the scores, I'm saying when fighters lose split decisions they ALWAYS will say they should have won. And lastly, by your middleweight analogy, Lennox Lewis never became heavyweight champion, being that he never fought Riddick Bowe. I never said Roy won a trinket at middle or super middleweight or light heavy, I said heavyweight.

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Originally Posted by intoccabile

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by intoccabile

I clearly said, BASED ON THEIR RESUMES!
Jesus christ. The statistics do not lie. And i repeat.
ON PAPER.. HOPKINS SHITS ALL OVER JOE CALZAGHE
ITS A FACT.. Joe's accomplishments and resume doesnt even come CLOSE

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So Hopkins resume, that includes a LOSS to Joe Calzaghe, is better than Joe Calzaghe's who has lost to NO-ONE!!!

ON PAPER Joe Calzaghe BEAT Roy Jones!!!

In REALITY Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. The statistics don't lie. That is the ONLY fact. Fact.

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Yes.. because i happen to know that You can lose to someone and still be greater than them. Are you going to tell me that Jermain Taylor, who beat hopkins twice, is greater than Bernard Hopkins now?

Joes resume has NOTHING on hopkins. Hopkins has fought a great list of fighters with big names, has been in the spot light for a very long time, CONTINUES to dominate at this age/stage of his career, has the 23 defenses and a decade as champion under his belt.

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I believe you can lose to someone and still be greater than them too. I believe Roy rates above Calzaghe.

Calzaghe has fought a great list of fighters with big names, has been in the spot light for a very long time, CONTINUES to dominate at this age/stage of his career, has the 20 odd defenses and a decade as champion under his belt. Hmm.. similar to Hopkins, no? ;)

Here is some fuel to the fire LOL enjoying this argument LOL;D
Calzaghe record
Joe Calzaghe

Hopkins Record
Bernard Hopkins

enjoy;D

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by intoccabile

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Originally Posted by Fenster

So Hopkins resume, that includes a LOSS to Joe Calzaghe, is better than Joe Calzaghe's who has lost to NO-ONE!!!

ON PAPER Joe Calzaghe BEAT Roy Jones!!!

In REALITY Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. The statistics don't lie. That is the ONLY fact. Fact.

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Yes.. because i happen to know that You can lose to someone and still be greater than them. Are you going to tell me that Jermain Taylor, who beat hopkins twice, is greater than Bernard Hopkins now?

Joes resume has NOTHING on hopkins. Hopkins has fought a great list of fighters with big names, has been in the spot light for a very long time, CONTINUES to dominate at this age/stage of his career, has the 23 defenses and a decade as champion under his belt.

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I believe you can lose to someone and still be greater than them too. I believe Roy rates above Calzaghe.

Calzaghe has fought a great list of fighters with big names, has been in the spot light for a very long time, CONTINUES to dominate at this age/stage of his career, has the 20 odd defenses and a decade as champion under his belt. Hmm.. similar to Hopkins, no? ;)

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LOL no. calzaghe has only fought kessler, bhop, jones imo.
and jones was shot in 04

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Originally Posted by match

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Originally Posted by mrodub

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Originally Posted by match

Actually the majority of ringside press had Hopkins winning the Calzaghe fight, and even if you think he lost, the mere admission that it was close implies it could have gone either way (if a fight is a split decision, most of the time the losing fighter has a gripe). Also how is it 'stupid' to say Hopkins is the true middleweight champ, considering he won the belt Roy VACATED. Everyone knows Roy beat him, unfortunately, when you move up in weight, you don't take your belts with you, otherwise Roy would have entered the Ruiz fight as the reigning middleweight, supermiddleweight, and light heavyweight champion. (and lastly, anyone who puts the fall through of the Jones-Hopkins rematch on only one of the fighters is blinded by the fact that NEITHER one of them saw it as their priority).

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At what poit did i question the scoring of the calzage hopkins match?
I didnt i said hopkins came up with stupid excses which he did
What you said in your orignal post was guys like jones collect trinkets for titles and hopkins was the true middleweight champ

"The real middleweight champ was Hopkins. The real heavyweight champ was Lennox. All those guys did was pick up trinckets, not titles."

Well sorry no his titles were not trinkets they were genuine titles the only one i can agree with is the lennox lewis bit, to be the true champ you have to beat the champ not lose to him and then get his vacant title because he feels your not good enough to bother competing with anymore,hopkins was a champ but hardly the true champ
The implication above is jones did not beat lewis so he was not the real heavyweight champ fair enough, but to put hopkins in that bracket as well is stupid
Last it was clearly a prioroty for hopkins who ran his mouth off about fighting jones after he beat titto he called him out by name but when jones responded hopkins backed out because of money nothing to do with the fact RJJ said he was gonna move up a weight and b hop did not expect him to say yes LOL

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Jones did THE EXACT same thing Hopkins did, hide behind money. EVERYONE thought Tito would beat Hopkins and EVERYONE was set for Trinidad-Jones at 168 the very next fight. At NO POINT DID ROY EVER bring up percentages when THAT was the plan. However, as soon as Hopkins won, now BOTH fighters start talking about what they will not accept. That is an indication that BOTH fighters would rather pursue other options. And I know you didn't question the scores, I'm saying when fighters lose split decisions they ALWAYS will say they should have won. And lastly, by your middleweight analogy, Lennox Lewis never became heavyweight champion, being that he never fought Riddick Bowe. I never said Roy won a trinket at middle or super middleweight or light heavy, I said heavyweight.

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Fair enough i thought you were trying to diminish his achievements.I dont think roy hid behind money if someone beat me and i though i could win i would fight for free and 60 40 was a fair split considering hopkins had only one name on his record

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Originally Posted by mrodub

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Originally Posted by match

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Originally Posted by mrodub

At what poit did i question the scoring of the calzage hopkins match?
I didnt i said hopkins came up with stupid excses which he did
What you said in your orignal post was guys like jones collect trinkets for titles and hopkins was the true middleweight champ

"The real middleweight champ was Hopkins. The real heavyweight champ was Lennox. All those guys did was pick up trinckets, not titles."

Well sorry no his titles were not trinkets they were genuine titles the only one i can agree with is the lennox lewis bit, to be the true champ you have to beat the champ not lose to him and then get his vacant title because he feels your not good enough to bother competing with anymore,hopkins was a champ but hardly the true champ
The implication above is jones did not beat lewis so he was not the real heavyweight champ fair enough, but to put hopkins in that bracket as well is stupid
Last it was clearly a prioroty for hopkins who ran his mouth off about fighting jones after he beat titto he called him out by name but when jones responded hopkins backed out because of money nothing to do with the fact RJJ said he was gonna move up a weight and b hop did not expect him to say yes LOL

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Jones did THE EXACT same thing Hopkins did, hide behind money. EVERYONE thought Tito would beat Hopkins and EVERYONE was set for Trinidad-Jones at 168 the very next fight. At NO POINT DID ROY EVER bring up percentages when THAT was the plan. However, as soon as Hopkins won, now BOTH fighters start talking about what they will not accept. That is an indication that BOTH fighters would rather pursue other options. And I know you didn't question the scores, I'm saying when fighters lose split decisions they ALWAYS will say they should have won. And lastly, by your middleweight analogy, Lennox Lewis never became heavyweight champion, being that he never fought Riddick Bowe. I never said Roy won a trinket at middle or super middleweight or light heavy, I said heavyweight.

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Fair enough i thought you were trying to diminish his achievements.I dont think roy hid behind money if someone beat me and i though i could win i would fight for free and 60 40 was a fair split considering hopkins had only one name on his record

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I hear ya. The main thing is that everyone has different criteria for what they consider greatness. Some people believe it's the number of belts you win or how high you can go, some believe it's the level of competition or your record, others factor in if you've lost and if so, how close or lopsided. There's no right or wrong really, it's all subjective.

To me it is the combo of most of the above and jones covers all the bases for me