Prospects you wish would have been great

[quote=Trainer Monkey;658078][quote=CGM;658076]

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Goofi Whitaker
Ernie Shavers
Marvis Frazier
Angel Manfreddy
Tim Witherspoon

All guys who you thought could be one of the greats coming up,all did not

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<Yeah on Witherspoon. Was never quite sure what happened to him. Even in defeat against Holmes he looked real good. But then he just kind of faded away slowly. Lack of ambition? Drugs?>

I saw a Tim Witherspoon interview on TV a while back, discussing about the difficulties of boxers to get fair share with their fight purses.


In the interview, Witherspoon expressed a passionate "hate" towards Don King whom he viewed as primarily responsible for his dismal ring underachievements. He as champion, was perceived to have earned millions, or at least gained some personal comfort from the monies earned. Wrong! Nothing farther from the truth!

For, as he stated, he never got any substantial money after the fights, making him always hungier for the next, and the next one after that. (apparently a DK strategy) The perks, unsolicited, like cars and expensive lodgings, dinners and the like.... are always subtracted later on to diminish his winnings, leaving him always with almost nothing. Perpetually fighting for peanuts at best, and for just accommodations at worst.

He tried the courts to get DK to hand him his fair share, but I believe the courts likewise never quite delivered for him.

DK is the "Flaw in Boxing".

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Manfredy fought Mayweather,beat Gatti,and Rodriguez,wasted Calvin Grove
Frazier fought both Tyson and Holmes,was the US Amateur champion,beat Bonecrusher Smith,Quick Tillis,and Joe Bugner
So Id reverse the question,are you freaking kidding me?

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Marvis Frazier was destroyed in less than a round by Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, so how does that help your arguement ? James Tillis was a journeyman with good footwork but never the less a journeyman.

Joe Bugner was far removed from his prime, and despite a good performance against Joe Frazier he never impressed me, and he was always way too cautious which cost him in alot of fights. James Smith had good power but again his skill-set was nowhere to be seen.

And lastly Angel Manfredy i agree wasn't a bad fighter, and he had a few good wins but he was destroyed by Floyd Mayweather, Diego Corrales but again. When did Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, ever show greatness ? and when did these fighters ever show they could of been the best at there weightclasses ?

I mean i can understand Tim Witherspon on your list, he did have very good skills and could of gone down as one of the greatest Heavyweights of his era. And he did show greatness in a few of his fights before Don King ruined him.

Do you see what im getting now ? IMO this thread was supposed to be about fighters who did show great ability, but never achieved there full potiental. Guys like Marvis Frazier, Angel Manfredy, don't fit this category, even if you did like them as fighters.

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Did you get the original question,it was about PROSPECTS,that means someone that looked good early and then FAILED
Like Marvis Frazier,who was underweight and got screwed up trying to turn him in to a slugger,or Manfredy,who allways seemed on the verge of a nervous breakdown,but had skills early on.
Again go back to the original question,a PROSPECT who could have been great

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Thats what i was saying so maybe you should go back to the orignal question, when Angel Manfredy fought the names you mentioned was he really and truly a prospect at that time ?

And did you honestly ever think at anytime that Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, could have been great ? please this argument is ridiculous just honestly look at what your saying. Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, could have been great ? i think you need to lay off on whatever your taking.

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

Rolando Navarette, Andy Ganigan, John "the Beast" Mugabi, Carl "the Truth" Williams...

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Carl Williams was a very skilled fighter he looked like a young Larry Holmes at times, he had a terrific jab and good movement. And he was unlucky not to get the decision against Larry Holmes, except i think he blew away the last 4 rounds against Larry Holmes which cost him by 1 point IMO.

But yea as i was saying a terrific fighter unfortunately he had a china chin. I mean he was beating Tommy Morrison, Mike Weaver, until his chin let him down. Honestly had his chin been better he could have been a force.

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

Rolando Navarette, Andy Ganigan, John "the Beast" Mugabi, Carl "the Truth" Williams...

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Carl Williams was a very skilled fighter he looked like a young Larry Holmes at times, he had a terrific jab and good movement. And he was unlucky not to get the decision against Larry Holmes, except i think he blew away the last 4 rounds against Larry Holmes which cost him by 1 point IMO.

But yea as i was saying a terrific fighter unfortunately he had a china chin. I mean he was beating Tommy Morrison, Mike Weaver, until his chin let him down. Honestly had his chin been better he could have been a force.

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One of the longest wingspans that I know of... Muhammad Ali neighborhood or better, too far to recollect. A great jab, like that of Holmes, yeah! Does not have the it! to stay with the greats!



Ceferino "Bolo Punch" Garcia. Filipino Middleweight!!! champion who had fought Henry Armstrong at light middleweight to a draw in the olden days. I thought he would have dominated longer with that bolo punch, but apparently was easily countered, so the short reign at middle (one defense?)

(This was waaaay before my time, I am not that old! LOL)

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

Marvis Frazier was destroyed in less than a round by Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, so how does that help your arguement ? James Tillis was a journeyman with good footwork but never the less a journeyman.

Joe Bugner was far removed from his prime, and despite a good performance against Joe Frazier he never impressed me, and he was always way too cautious which cost him in alot of fights. James Smith had good power but again his skill-set was nowhere to be seen.

And lastly Angel Manfredy i agree wasn't a bad fighter, and he had a few good wins but he was destroyed by Floyd Mayweather, Diego Corrales but again. When did Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, ever show greatness ? and when did these fighters ever show they could of been the best at there weightclasses ?

I mean i can understand Tim Witherspon on your list, he did have very good skills and could of gone down as one of the greatest Heavyweights of his era. And he did show greatness in a few of his fights before Don King ruined him.

Do you see what im getting now ? IMO this thread was supposed to be about fighters who did show great ability, but never achieved there full potiental. Guys like Marvis Frazier, Angel Manfredy, don't fit this category, even if you did like them as fighters.

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Did you get the original question,it was about PROSPECTS,that means someone that looked good early and then FAILED
Like Marvis Frazier,who was underweight and got screwed up trying to turn him in to a slugger,or Manfredy,who allways seemed on the verge of a nervous breakdown,but had skills early on.
Again go back to the original question,a PROSPECT who could have been great

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Thats what i was saying so maybe you should go back to the orignal question, when Angel Manfredy fought the names you mentioned was he really and truly a prospect at that time ?

And did you honestly ever think at anytime that Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, could have been great ? please this argument is ridiculous just honestly look at what your saying. Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, could have been great ? i think you need to lay off on whatever your taking.

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Come now,Marvis was the National Amateur Champ,National Gold Gloves Champ,beat Witherspoon,Smith,and Green in Amateurs,I think that would qualify as a PROSPECT,and truthfully one that should have beena cruiserweight,he allways fought light. Hell he fought Holmes in only his 10th pro fight
Manfredy won 23 out of his first 25 fights,including two over former champs Paez and Grove,making him a PROSPECT,heck when he beat Robinson,it was HBO after darks highest rated show of 1999,so somebody must have thought something of him as a PROSPECT.

Jemal Hinton...kid had everything in talent and backing.He just simply walked away.

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

i was thinking about how many prospects look like they'll be a force to be reckoned with, but then either end up losing to not so great opposition or never end up being as good as you had hoped or thought they'd be, my personal pick is Fernando Vargas, many people are quick to say he was overrated, when honestly i say it was wrecked due to bad managing, the guy had it all, power, good boxing ability, heart, took risks (sometimes too many), was willing to fight everyone, and also could sell a fight easily. was wonderin if you guys could share your picks

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But even if Fernando Vargas had been allowed to develop a bit more, could he have honestly ever have beaten ODLH, Felix Trinidad, Shane Mosley ?

I mean i understand what your saying and i agree somewhat, and he did impress me in his early fights especially against Winky Wright, but the point im making i don't think he could have ever have beaten the fighters i mentioned above.

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honestly, yes i do think he would have been able to beat them all, i mean he just needed to rack up more experience, and one thing i noticed re-watching Vargas' career is that after each loss a little bit more of him was gone, and i don't think it was as much physical as it was mental, i mean i know he has back probs, but i look at it this way, relatively un-experienced big fights and they throw him in against Trinidad, he gets dropped twice in the first round, yet gives him hell from there on out until getting stopped in the final round, if he was a bit more experienced he wouldn't of fallen into that trap and well get caught so easily, i think he would have been able to outbox Trinidad for the decision, and the DLH fight would have been the closest of the 3, cause honestly one eyed and i had him ahead in the Mosley fight, rematch well he gave a half assed effort IMO

mike anchondo before i was a big fan i use to beat every body with him on fight night then he went to espn and ktfo twice

also still a fan jeff lacy
jimrex jaca gave a hard time to jmm but has no chin

Anyone remember Angel Vasquez at feather/spr feather?Kid was supposed to be the next big thing with power,ranked in the top ten by all bodies and talked about for a shot at Hamed??Ran into perennial title challenger Victor Polo for an title eliminator dec. loss....followed by a KO defeat at the hands of a Ivan Valle....:-X....then quit?

What about Lamar Parks?Had some nice skills but everything was cut short after Johnson schooled him and 'health issues' I thought he would be around as champ.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Anyone remember Angel Vasquez at feather/spr feather?Kid was supposed to be the next big thing with power,ranked in the top ten by all bodies and talked about for a shot at Hamed??Ran into perennial title challenger Victor Polo for an title eliminator dec. loss....followed by a KO defeat at the hands of a Ivan Valle....:-X....then quit?

What about Lamar Parks?Had some nice skills but everything was cut short after Johnson schooled him and 'health issues' I thought he would be around as champ.

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I remember Vazquez. His fight with Valle was on ESPN I think. He got dropped and didn't even try and get up. Just stood on his knees. Never fought again. Thing with Vazquez was he was like 34 years old. I don't think his heart was really into Boxing any more after losing to Polo. I think he taught it was to long a road back at his age.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Anyone remember Angel Vasquez at feather/spr feather?Kid was supposed to be the next big thing with power,ranked in the top ten by all bodies and talked about for a shot at Hamed??Ran into perennial title challenger Victor Polo for an title eliminator dec. loss....followed by a KO defeat at the hands of a Ivan Valle....:-X....then quit?

What about Lamar Parks?Had some nice skills but everything was cut short after Johnson schooled him and 'health issues' I thought he would be around as champ.

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I remember Vazquez. His fight with Valle was on ESPN I think. He got dropped and didn't even try and get up. Just stood on his knees. Never fought again. Thing with Vazquez was he was like 34 years old. I don't think his heart was really into Boxing any more after losing to Polo. I think he taught it was to long a road back at his age.

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Exact,He looked too well fed and when pressured he crumbled.I think the princess would have played with him.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Anyone remember Angel Vasquez at feather/spr feather?Kid was supposed to be the next big thing with power,ranked in the top ten by all bodies and talked about for a shot at Hamed??Ran into perennial title challenger Victor Polo for an title eliminator dec. loss....followed by a KO defeat at the hands of a Ivan Valle....:-X....then quit?

What about Lamar Parks?Had some nice skills but everything was cut short after Johnson schooled him and 'health issues' I thought he would be around as champ.

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Those health issues,turned out to be HIV

Even though he was before my time, Errol Christie would seem to be a shoo-in for this

Not for the reasons given, but, Ike Ibeabuchi. I thought he was going to clean out the Heavyweight division.