How weak is the heavyweight division really?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

In hindsight any era can be exciting...people can look back at Lennox Lewis vs Ray Mercer and "oooooo" and "aaaaah" but totally forget that Ray Mercer drew with Marion Wilson and lost to an ancient Larry Holmes before he even fought Lennox who he damn near beat.......we can also look at Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman and think "Well they had to be pretty good to beat Lennox Lewis" and not ever once stop and think about how McCall was just a club fighter with no boxing skill and 5 losses before the shocking KO of Lewis and how Rahman has ALWAYS been a protected heavyweight.

We can look back to Larry Holmes "battles" with Renoldo Snipes and Tim Witherspoon and never once think "You know Witherspoon and Snipes weren't ready for title shots when they fought Holmes" and still think that Larry is so great to get laid out a couple times by guys who didn't even have 25 pro fights under their belts when he was AT HIS PEAK!

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Guys like Snipes, Witherspoon, Carl Williams, et al were hardly green rookies. I base that on how well they performed in the ring at the time. And on how Holmes performed throughout his reign.

As for hindsight, well I ain't gonna try and argue about which of us is using that. :)

The weakness of the heavyweight division today is on par with a senior citizens' lack of bowel control......

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Lyle

In hindsight any era can be exciting...people can look back at Lennox Lewis vs Ray Mercer and "oooooo" and "aaaaah" but totally forget that Ray Mercer drew with Marion Wilson and lost to an ancient Larry Holmes before he even fought Lennox who he damn near beat.......we can also look at Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman and think "Well they had to be pretty good to beat Lennox Lewis" and not ever once stop and think about how McCall was just a club fighter with no boxing skill and 5 losses before the shocking KO of Lewis and how Rahman has ALWAYS been a protected heavyweight.

We can look back to Larry Holmes "battles" with Renoldo Snipes and Tim Witherspoon and never once think "You know Witherspoon and Snipes weren't ready for title shots when they fought Holmes" and still think that Larry is so great to get laid out a couple times by guys who didn't even have 25 pro fights under their belts when he was AT HIS PEAK!

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Guys like Snipes, Witherspoon, Carl Williams, et al were hardly green rookies. I base that on how well they performed in the ring at the time. And on how Holmes performed throughout his reign.

As for hindsight, well I ain't gonna try and argue about which of us is using that. :)

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Snipes,two time Gold Gloves Champion
Witherspoon beat Snipes,and sparred with Ali
Carl Williams also a 2 time NY Gold Gloves winner
These arent exactly nobodies

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Originally Posted by CGM

Guys like Snipes, Witherspoon, Carl Williams, et al were hardly green rookies. I base that on how well they performed in the ring at the time. And on how Holmes performed throughout his reign.

As for hindsight, well I ain't gonna try and argue about which of us is using that. :)

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Renaldo Snipes 22-0-0....biggest fight before Holmes, split decision wins over Gerrie Coetzee and Eddie Mustafa Muhammad

Tim Witherspoon 15-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, he got a majority decision vs Snipes

Carl Williams 16-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a UD over James Tillis

Marvis Frazier 10-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a UD vs Joe Bunger

Ossie Ocasio 13-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a SD and UD vs Jimmy Young.

Imagine someone with under 20 fights getting a title shot with Wladimir, he already gets enough crap as it is.

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Snipes,two time Gold Gloves Champion
Witherspoon beat Snipes,and sparred with Ali
Carl Williams also a 2 time NY Gold Gloves winner
These arent exactly nobodies

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I'm not saying they were nobodies, I am just saying had they been more seasoned they might have done better vs Larry Holmes. When Mike Tyson finally fought Larry Holmes he had 32 fights under his belt.....when Michael Spinks fought Larry he had 27 fights.

And oddly enough those guys did better....call me crazy but I think they did well against Holmes because (not only was Holmes older at this time) but they had more experience

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by CGM

Guys like Snipes, Witherspoon, Carl Williams, et al were hardly green rookies. I base that on how well they performed in the ring at the time. And on how Holmes performed throughout his reign.

As for hindsight, well I ain't gonna try and argue about which of us is using that. :)

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Renaldo Snipes 22-0-0....biggest fight before Holmes, split decision wins over Gerrie Coetzee and Eddie Mustafa Muhammad

Tim Witherspoon 15-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, he got a majority decision vs Snipes

Carl Williams 16-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a UD over James Tillis

Marvis Frazier 10-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a UD vs Joe Bunger

Ossie Ocasio 13-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a SD and UD vs Jimmy Young.

Imagine someone with under 20 fights getting a title shot with Wladimir, he already gets enough crap as it is.

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Your post doesn't say prove a whole lot. Like I said, I basing my opinion on how they handled themelves in the ring against Holmes, not on their previous record.

But if you like, we can talk about the tough victories of Hasim Rahman, Tony Thompson, Sultan Ibragimov, Lamon Brewster, Ray Austin, Calvin Brock, 26 lb smaller Chris Byrd, Sam Peter, Not to mention Corrie Sanders, Jameel McCline, Charles Shufford, Francois Botha, and Derek Jefferson.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Snipes,two time Gold Gloves Champion
Witherspoon beat Snipes,and sparred with Ali
Carl Williams also a 2 time NY Gold Gloves winner
These arent exactly nobodies

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I'm not saying they were nobodies, I am just saying had they been more seasoned they might have done better vs Larry Holmes. When Mike Tyson finally fought Larry Holmes he had 32 fights under his belt.....when Michael Spinks fought Larry he had 27 fights.

And oddly enough those guys did better....call me crazy but I think they did well against Holmes because (not only was Holmes older at this time) but they had more experience

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You could also argue that Tim Witherspoon, Carl Williams, despite being green to the pro ranks. Arguably fought there best ever fight especially Tim Witherspoon, against Larry Holmes. Wouldn't you agree Lyle ?