Its like with Holyfield.
I didn't know he recaptured the Heavyweight Crown a record 17 times?
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Its like with Holyfield.
I didn't know he recaptured the Heavyweight Crown a record 17 times?
There are really strong arguments being made for both sides of this issue. One thing I haven't seen explicitly mentioned is the perspective from which catchweights are analyzed. These seem to be some of the major themes in the debate.
From the point of view that boxing is a sport: catchweights can taint the purity of a contest and also have negative repercussions on the weight class system as a whole.
From the point of view that boxing is an entertainment industry: catchweights provide a means for marquee fighters to compete in superbouts that catch the public eye.
Considering that boxing has taken a bit of a hit in mainstream coverage, these "superbouts" could revitalize the sport's popularity. So it's a question of maintaining the purity of the sport versus making megafights under less than perfect conditions.
Tough call...
responses in boldQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGBThat's pretty obvious, but when I say 'why' I am talking about his intention behind doing something, not his ability to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
And yes Bilbo... Cotto can agree to fight at whatever he wants to, I'm not evne knocking Pac here... this is just buisiness, some of his fans don't seem to understand how it works though... just giving them a wake up call.
The only part of this thread remotely aimed at you were the world class athletes/trainers saying that even a pound can be highly significant. It doesn't even have to be regarding Pacman at all, I just took issue that a number of posters responded to people saying that drying up even a pound extra could make a huge difference to a (any) fighter as if they were clinically insane.
My opinions on pac are just my opinions, but that^ is a solid fact that Pacfans have been only too happyu to ignore so that they can heap the maximum ammount of praise on Pac possible for beating a name, not the circumstances.
I have to admit I haven't read any of your recent responses properly, I have been on the go since about 7am and it's time for some sleep but I'll be sure to check what has been said.
So doesn't this one pound is significant work both ways?
no, in this case we are talking about the toll and effect that losing a pound too many could take on a fighters electrolyte balance, hydration levels and endocrine system... not simply what one pound of mass will do in the ring.
Why should Manny keep moving up and fighting the best guys in their weight class with them having all the advantage?
I'm not saying that he should or shouldn't, that's his perogative really isn't it. I just think that his fans need to be aware of his strategy before they go apeshit over a win and talk only about the name he beat and not the circumstances
Hasn't he already moved up like 20 lbs? If a single pound counts so much and Manny has moved through 8 weight classes then cut him some slack.
I don't need to, I'm not having a go at the guy, realistically 140 is as high as he can go, he's not interested in moving up in weight now, just getting mega fights and marquee names... like a certain fighter despised by most Pacfans (whilst not as bad he is now being very similar). I'm not having a go at the guy for being small... but his minions need to know how it is.
The point you guys are missing is this.
What Manny is attempting to acomplish has NEVER EVER been acomplished before.
I know, Manny has acheived a lot, he is an all time great and he hasn't even retired yet,I would be stupid to say otherwise, it's not really relevant to what we're talking about though. Nobody is black and white
NO fighter EVER has EVER moved through 8 weight classes and then fought and defeated the BEST opponent in that weight class.
When you say 8 are you including Welterweight or something ??? if so that's a bit of a rich statement to be making
De La Hoya never managed it, he moved through less weight classes and his big fight against Hopkins (also forcing Hop to fight at catchweight he got knocked out). So because Oscar does something it makes it 1005 undebatable for Pac to do the same ???. Also to play devil's advocate... are we talking about the same Bhop that lived like a monk and barely had to drop any weight at all, if any to make 160?
Duran, Leonard, Hearns never did it, Roy Jones Jr never did (he fought a terrible belt holder not even close to the best at heavyweight).
If Manny beats Cotto or Mosely it is one hell of a feat, considering he's a guy who was once at flyweight. Whether Cotto weighs in at 147 lbs or 145 lbs is simply not the issue.
Of course it would be BIlbo... I'm not saying that he deserves zero credit for it, but the Pac minions need to get it into perspective.
They will give him 147 pounds worth of credit, as if he beat Cotto genuinley at Welterweight (A catchweight is not a weight class... they have a begining and an end... take one away and it's not a weightclass, a weight class affords a fighter the ability to weigh in between a certain range, a catchweight does not... it's that simple).
I can't think of any sport other than boxing where a guy would have concesions made for him by their opponent to make the contest fairer and then have his fans confused as to why some people aren't willing to give 100% of the credit he'd get under the normal circumstances.
What ever the case, if Pac beats Cotto at a catchweight then the credit that he gets for this needs to be taken down a notch from the credit he would get for beating him at Welterweight.
That is not to say that he doesn't deserve a lot of credit for a win but it has to be put into perspective and have the circumstances considered. He was not simply the better man, he was the better man given the consesions that were made.
Sorry to put a downer on a potential win but the inevitable histeria and "second coming of christ" type prasing from Pac minions needs to be dampend. That's not to say that boxing fans can't give the guy his due but lets get it into perspective here, he shouldn't get less than his due he shouldn't get more than his due either.
Ok I won't reply to every point but just a few.
To those who say if Pacquaio wants to fight at welterweight then he should fight at welterweight are missing the point.
Pacquaio doesn't want to fight at welterweight he wants to fight Cotto.
Cotto isn't soley a welterweight, the majority of his career was at junior welter hence he is a junior welter/welterweight.
Manny doesn't give a tuppeny fuck about the WBO welterweight title he wants the prestige of beating the eliter juniorwelter/welter Miguel Cotto.
Both are P4P stars, they are NOT soley single division stars.
The weight class isn't important.
It doesn't taint the purity of the sport in any way. Having Juan Urango as a light welter world champ because Paulie Malignaggi wouldn't pay enough sanctioning fees to these greedy organistations is what taints the sport.
Manny Pacqauio is both bigger and better for the sport than the WBO welterweight strap.
No fan in the world cares about the history or heritage of that belt or any other.
When you watch a fight you arn't watching to see how the history of the WBO belt is going to unfurl they may as well be fighting for marbles or cream eggs, it just doesn't matter.
Manny vs Cotto is one of the biggest and best fights that can be made in our sport, from both a commercial and entertainment point of view, (to say nothing of legacy for both fighters) and anybody who would rather this didn't happen than to see the purity of the WBO belt heritage tarnished is just a complete idiot.
It doesn't matter that its at catchweight, not one single bit. It's still a megafight.
Shall we erase the Leanoard Hearns fight from our memory because it was a catchweight? What about the Gatti Ward trilogy?
Just get over it already, Manny and Cotto are both terrific fighters and a matchup between them would be a tremendous boxing event not just for purists but also for casual fans.
Its the kind of fight that can give boxing a massive shot in the arm but you guys would rather uphold some stupid traditions that don't even apply in a p4p fight between fighters of DIFFERENT weight classes.
Manny can fight at 135, 140, 147 he doesn't exist soley in any single division he is a p4p star.
Miguel can fight at 140 or 147, again he doesn't exist soley in any single division he is a p4p star.
Whether its at 145 or 147 is irelevent. Whether that height of prestige, the much coveted WBO strap is on the line is also irelevent.
It's all about two p4p stars meeting in the ring and giving us one hell of a fight.
I don't care about the world title belt either. What matters most is the excitement factor that it's gonna creat. For example, the Pacquiao-Morales trilogy holds the record on most ppv buy. But none of those fights were for world title.
A lot of the most eagerly anticipated fights arn't. Cazlaghe Hopkins was a non title catchweight fight and I don't remember any complaints. So was Pavlik Hopkins.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASIAN SENSATION
Yet not a single person on this board complained that Pavlik and Calzaghe were cowards, forcing Hopkins to 'drain' himself and that the fights tarnished boxing.
In fact when Winky fought Hopkins also at a catchweight everyone said Winky was too small, even though once again Hopkins 'drained' himself by moving down to 168.
To be honest with you it has to do with Pacman's fans which in turn makes everyone hates Pacman and will use anything against him. I really don't like Pacman but seeing it from another perspective I really don't care about the catchweight if it's reasonable for Cotto.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboA lot of the most eagerly anticipated fights arn't. Cazlaghe Hopkins was a non title catchweight fight and I don't remember any complaints. So was Pavlik Hopkins.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASIAN SENSATION
Yet not a single person on this board complained that Pavlik and Calzaghe were cowards, forcing Hopkins to 'drain' himself and that the fights tarnished boxing.
In fact when Winky fought Hopkins also at a catchweight everyone said Winky was too small, even though once again Hopkins 'drained' himself by moving down to 168.
Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogTo be honest with you it has to do with Pacman's fans which in turn makes everyone hates Pacman and will use anything against him. I really don't like Pacman but seeing it from another perspective I really don't care about the catchweight if it's reasonable for Cotto.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboA lot of the most eagerly anticipated fights arn't. Cazlaghe Hopkins was a non title catchweight fight and I don't remember any complaints. So was Pavlik Hopkins.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASIAN SENSATION
Yet not a single person on this board complained that Pavlik and Calzaghe were cowards, forcing Hopkins to 'drain' himself and that the fights tarnished boxing.
In fact when Winky fought Hopkins also at a catchweight everyone said Winky was too small, even though once again Hopkins 'drained' himself by moving down to 168.
That's it in a nutshell really. Nobody has ever complained one iota about catchweight fights before, which happen a lot more often than people realise but because of Pacmania they are all over this like flies on shit.
It's sad because they are missing out on the satisfaction of enjoying a true boxing superstar in the making.
Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.
His story is tremendous when you consider the poverty he has come from. His success epitomises everything that is great about boxing and his own courage, humility and willingness to fight all comers should be aplauded.
He's the ultimate throwback fighter, never backs down, has taken on challenges that nobody thought possible a couple years ago and he wants to continue further.
Its so sad to allow a few Pac lovers on a forum to cloud your judgement so much that it prevents you from enjoying the one fighter who is doing more for boxing than any other right now.
We should be proud of Manny, he's a terrific little fighter, great and humble guy and an inspiration for an entire continent numbering billions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogTo be honest with you it has to do with Pacman's fans which in turn makes everyone hates Pacman and will use anything against him. I really don't like Pacman but seeing it from another perspective I really don't care about the catchweight if it's reasonable for Cotto.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
That's it in a nutshell really. Nobody has ever complained one iota about catchweight fights before, which happen a lot more often than people realise but because of Pacmania they are all over this like flies on shit.
It's sad because they are missing out on the satisfaction of enjoying a true boxing superstar in the making.
Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.
His story is tremendous when you consider the poverty he has come from. His success epitomises everything that is great about boxing and his own courage, humility and willingness to fight all comers should be aplauded.
He's the ultimate throwback fighter, never backs down, has taken on challenges that nobody thought possible a couple years ago and he wants to continue further.
Its so sad to allow a few Pac lovers on a forum to cloud your judgement so much that it prevents you from enjoying the one fighter who is doing more for boxing than any other right now.
We should be proud of Manny, he's a terrific little fighter, great and humble guy and an inspiration for an entire continent numbering billions.
Absolutely. I really don't know how anyone could dislike the guy.
So just to be clear on this: if they do fight, will Cotto's WBO belt be on the line or not?
Just to be clear, who the fuck cares!Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGIONQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
That's it in a nutshell really. Nobody has ever complained one iota about catchweight fights before, which happen a lot more often than people realise but because of Pacmania they are all over this like flies on shit.
It's sad because they are missing out on the satisfaction of enjoying a true boxing superstar in the making.
Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.
His story is tremendous when you consider the poverty he has come from. His success epitomises everything that is great about boxing and his own courage, humility and willingness to fight all comers should be aplauded.
He's the ultimate throwback fighter, never backs down, has taken on challenges that nobody thought possible a couple years ago and he wants to continue further.
Its so sad to allow a few Pac lovers on a forum to cloud your judgement so much that it prevents you from enjoying the one fighter who is doing more for boxing than any other right now.
We should be proud of Manny, he's a terrific little fighter, great and humble guy and an inspiration for an entire continent numbering billions.
Absolutely. I really don't know how anyone could dislike the guy.
So just to be clear on this: if they do fight, will Cotto's WBO belt be on the line or not?
It's simply not about the belt.
But IF the belt is on the line can anybody really begrudge Manny possibly winning it?
I mean with all the mediocre paper belt holders in boxing today why in the world would anybody begrudge Manny winning an historic title because Cotto weighed in a couple pounds under the limit?
I just don't see how it tarnishes boxing in any way whatsoever if the belt is on the line.
Really with guys like Juan Urango, Giacobbe Fragomeni, Karoly Balzsay, Malcom Klassen and Paulos Moses all being recognised as world champions, does it really 'tarnish' the sport if the unquestioned most exciting, explosive, dynamic little fighter in the world today gets given a WBO strap if he vanquishes the current holder a couple pounds below the max weight limit? :-\
No doubt to some fucking moany, whiny people it will be a travesty, but thankfully the boxing world pays no attention at all to them........
I don't think real boxing fans care about the alphabet soup titles. They just want good fights. Who gives a shit about the wbo, ibf, wbu, wba, wbc, ibo the intercontinental bullshit title or whatever. They just want to see a good fight.
I think this fight with Cotto will be set at 144 or 145. Cotto can shed 1 or 2 pounds, since he came in at 146 against Clottey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Agreed, most people hate on all the organisations and how corrupt they are anyway yet when the Pacman is involved they suddenly want to prevent the tarnishing of these alphabet straps, it's quite bizarre really.
Thankfully history won't care one bit what weight this was fought at.
Barrera didn't accept the WBC title when he defeated Morales for the first time. He did that just to prove a point - that you don't really need a silly belt to be called a champion. I remember how wicked piss Sulaiman was. Lol!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboJust to be clear, who the fuck cares!Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGIONQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Absolutely. I really don't know how anyone could dislike the guy.
So just to be clear on this: if they do fight, will Cotto's WBO belt be on the line or not?
It's simply not about the belt.
But IF the belt is on the line can anybody really begrudge Manny possibly winning it?
I mean with all the mediocre paper belt holders in boxing today why in the world would anybody begrudge Manny winning an historic title because Cotto weighed in a couple pounds under the limit?
I just don't see how it tarnishes boxing in any way whatsoever if the belt is on the line.
Really with guys like Juan Urango, Giacobbe Fragomeni, Karoly Balzsay, Malcom Klassen and Paulos Moses all being recognised as world champions, does it really 'tarnish' the sport if the unquestioned most exciting, explosive, dynamic little fighter in the world today gets given a WBO strap if he vanquishes the current holder a couple pounds below the max weight limit? :-\
No doubt to some fucking moany, whiny people it will be a travesty, but thankfully the boxing world pays no attention at all to them........
LOL; WAR Bilbo Baggins!!! Funny you calling the kettle black.
No I wouldn't begrudge him the belt should he win. I might have my own "whiny" issues but like I said before, issues or not, it's up to Cotto and his people to take the fight or not; and if the governing bodies don't care who am I to worry over it.
Plus, Manny is the draw in this fight calling the shots, Cotto isn't; and it could be very beneficial for Cotto to become more recognizable to the casual fans. If Cotto does take it, than obviously he and his people feel that the weight stipulations won't make a difference anyways. If Cotto loses I'm not the type to listen to excuses for a fighter{though Cotto doesn't seem that type}they make their choices. And in the end I just want to see the fight; going to be epic:cool:
Manny doesn't give a tuppeny f*** about the WBO welterweight title he wants the prestige of beating the eliter juniorwelter/welter Miguel Cotto.
Both are P4P stars, they are NOT soley single division stars.
The weight class isn't important.
It doesn't taint the purity of the sport in any way. Having Juan Urango as a light welter world champ because Paulie Malignaggi wouldn't pay enough sanctioning fees to these greedy organistations is what taints the sport.
Manny Pacqauio is both bigger and better for the sport than the WBO welterweight strap.
No fan in the world cares about the history or heritage of that belt or any other.
When you watch a fight you arn't watching to see how the history of the WBO belt is going to unfurl they may as well be fighting for marbles or cream eggs, it just doesn't matter.
Manny vs Cotto is one of the biggest and best fights that can be made in our sport, from both a commercial and entertainment point of view, (to say nothing of legacy for both fighters) and anybody who would rather this didn't happen than to see the purity of the WBO belt heritage tarnished is just a complete idiot.
I admire your ability to take what someone says and make those comments seem as though they are in a totally different context…. :rolleyes:
I have never once said that Catchweights are detrimental to the sport of boxing because they tarnish the purity of a belt. No one anti-Cathcweight on this board has even mentioned Belts as a factor in their argument. I find you guilty of Fabrication Bilbo.
My reference to detriment comes purely out the notion that Cathweight is (as I said before) in essence, a demand. These demands have away of filtering through out a sport. Hence it’s not the purity of Alphabet titles that is at stake… It’s the maturing disregard for weight classes themselves.
Miguel can fight at 140 or 147, again he doesn't exist soley in any single division he is a p4p star.
Bullshit, Cotto is NOW soely a Welterweight. For example, who do you think Cotto would rather of fought. Hatton, or Margarito?
A lot of the most eagerly anticipated fights arn't. Cazlaghe Hopkins was a non title catchweight fight and I don't remember any complaints. So was Pavlik Hopkins.
Yet not a single person on this board complained that Pavlik and Calzaghe were cowards, forcing Hopkins to 'drain' himself and that the fights tarnished boxing.
In fact when Winky fought Hopkins also at a catchweight everyone said Winky was too small, even though once again Hopkins 'drained' himself by moving down to 168.
Again, this is a complete fabrication of the REAL truth.
Hopkins fought Winky at 170… not Super Middle.
And while Winky was clearly too small for the weight there’s NO WAY IN HELL Hopkins had to sacrifice anything for this fight. This ‘catchweight’ was no way a middle-ground.
In fact I remember correctly, when Hopkins initially decided to make the leap from 160 to 170+ He had to hire a top notch, overpriced Conditioning coach to ensure Hopkins bulked up for the higher weight.
Hopkins was making 160 with ease and to be honest, is much bigger up at this new weight. Its not like he couldn’t make 160, or 168.
He’s whole ploy has clearly been to do quite the opposite to what Pacquiao is trying to do now (equally as faggoty IMO :mad: ).
Finally a key point I’d like to make here is that Calzaghe, Pavlik and Wright were all consenting adult ;D Meaning that they agreed the terms, which is fine for them. This doesn’t mean its fine for everybody.
Its also worth noting Bilbo that clearly Wright and Pavlik made the wrong choice in deciding to fight at 170. They only fighter who had any business moving up in weight actually beat Hopkins (Can you actually believe it!? :D ).
Really with guys like Juan Urango, Giacobbe Fragomeni, Karoly Balzsay, Malcom Klassen and Paulos Moses all being recognised as world champions, does it really 'tarnish' the sport if the unquestioned most exciting, explosive, dynamic little fighter in the world today gets given a WBO strap if he vanquishes the current holder a couple pounds below the max weight limit?
No doubt to some f***ing moany, whiny people it will be a travesty, but thankfully the boxing world pays no attention at all to them........
You don’t solve a problem by creating another one. Catchweights don’t solve the problem of weak paper champions.
IMO you make it sound like Manny Pacquio is he saviour of boxing and that fighting Cotto at the sacred weight of 143 will solve all of Boxing’s problems.
Bullshit. This fight would be a shot of Sugar in the arm and nothing more.