Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth

[AdamGB]

Of course it's possible bilbo...

he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.

When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.

You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...

Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.

Roach isn't stupid.

Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.

I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.

This has a massively simple answer: because he can.

Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.

In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.

That's pretty obvious, but when I say 'why' I am talking about his intention behind doing something, not his ability to do it.

And yes Bilbo... Cotto can agree to fight at whatever he wants to, I'm not evne knocking Pac here... this is just buisiness, some of his fans don't seem to understand how it works though... just giving them a wake up call.

The only part of this thread remotely aimed at you were the world class athletes/trainers saying that even a pound can be highly significant. It doesn't even have to be regarding Pacman at all, I just took issue that a number of posters responded to people saying that drying up even a pound extra could make a huge difference to a (any) fighter as if they were clinically insane.

My opinions on pac are just my opinions, but that^ is a solid fact that Pacfans have been only too happyu to ignore so that they can heap the maximum ammount of praise on Pac possible for beating a name, not the circumstances.

I have to admit I haven't read any of your recent responses properly, I have been on the go since about 7am and it's time for some sleep but I'll be sure to check what has been said.

[The Congressman]

Pacquiao-Cotto might not happen afterall. Latest word in pacland is team pac are now eyeing Mosley.

[Kev]

Of course it's possible bilbo...

he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.

When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.

You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...

Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.

Roach isn't stupid.

Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.

I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.

This has a massively simple answer: because he can.

Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.

In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.

That's pretty obvious, but when I say 'why' I am talking about his intention behind doing something, not his ability to do it.

And yes Bilbo... Cotto can agree to fight at whatever he wants to, I'm not evne knocking Pac here... this is just buisiness, some of his fans don't seem to understand how it works though... just giving them a wake up call.

The only part of this thread remotely aimed at you were the world class athletes/trainers saying that even a pound can be highly significant. It doesn't even have to be regarding Pacman at all, I just took issue that a number of posters responded to people saying that drying up even a pound extra could make a huge difference to a (any) fighter as if they were clinically insane.

My opinions on pac are just my opinions, but that^ is a solid fact that Pacfans have been only too happyu to ignore so that they can heap the maximum ammount of praise on Pac possible for beating a name, not the circumstances.

I have to admit I haven't read any of your recent responses properly, I have been on the go since about 7am and it's time for some sleep but I'll be sure to check what has been said.

So doesn't this one pound is significant work both ways? Why should Manny keep moving up and fighting the best guys in their weight class with them having all the advantage?

Hasn't he already moved up like 20 lbs? If a single pound counts so much and Manny has moved through 8 weight classes then cut him some slack.

The point you guys are missing is this.

What Manny is attempting to acomplish has NEVER EVER been acomplished before.

NO fighter EVER has EVER moved through 8 weight classes and then fought and defeated the BEST opponent in that weight class.

De La Hoya never managed it, he moved through less weight classes and his big fight against Hopkins (also forcing Hop to fight at catchweight he got knocked out).

Duran, Leonard, Hearns never did it, Roy Jones Jr never did (he fought a terrible belt holder not even close to the best at heavyweight).

If Manny beats Cotto or Mosely it is one hell of a feat, considering he's a guy who was once at flyweight. Whether Cotto weighs in at 147 lbs or 145 lbs is simply not the issue.

[Mr140]

Ok Bilbo but lets face it weight classes change ever few pounds in lower weight lets see how much has pac moved up like 30 pounds right. While that is good both Jones and Holyfeild have moved up way more. Jones fought at LM comes all the way up to heavyweight and fights Ruiz who was weighing in 30 more pounds then him and 80 pounds more then were he started at that to me is impressive regardless of the talent he had. As for Holyfeild he started at 175 and fought men that were 255 yet again a 80 pound differents and when they came in ring they were 20 to 30 pounds more then he would and he still pull off wins that to me more impressive. Pac has never been out weighed in a fight like Jones or Holyfeild have and by such huge amounts as well i would say.

[Kev]

Ok Bilbo but lets face it weight classes change ever few pounds in lower weight lets see how much has pac moved up like 30 pounds right. While that is good both Jones and Holyfeild have moved up way more. Jones fought at LM comes all the way up to heavyweight and fights Ruiz who was weighing in 30 more pounds then him and 80 pounds more then were he started at that to me is impressive regardless of the talent he had. As for Holyfeild he started at 175 and fought men that were 255 yet again a 80 pound differents and when they came in ring they were 20 to 30 pounds more then he would and he still pull off wins that to me more impressive. Pac has never been out weighed in a fight like Jones or Holyfeild have and by such huge amounts as well i would say.

Well if you believe all that all I can say is that you don't understand either boxing very well or basic human body mechanics.

There is a certain critical mass in boxing beyond which weight alone doesn't contribute as much because it comes at the expense of something else, usually speed and mobility.

A 147 lb, even a 168 lb man can be frighteningly fast and athletic. When you get to heavyweight however pure weight alone isn't an advantage, and in fact can even be a disadvantage.

If it were a wrestling contest where an opponent could make good use of that extra weight it would matter but above say 215 lbs, in a boxing sense, weight and size comes at the expense of size and speed.

Look at the animal kingdom, Lions and tigers (and in the past dinosaurs) can routinely take down and prey upon creatures much larger than themselves because their increased weight and size doesn't help them. It just makes them slow and ponderous. A lions superior mobility, it's powerful claws and body movements can see it easily bring down a wildebeast.

Leopards and cheetas also can bring down gazelles that outweigh them.

But a leopard would be hopeless against a lion because it's too small. The lion is bigger but not too big for its speed and mobility to be compromised. The fact that lions also have fearsome weapons can be an analogy also here in that it can represent talent and skill, punch power etc in boxers.

Roy Jones in moving up to fight John Ruiz was basically a leopard taking on a wildebeast. Ruiz was bigger but had literally NOTHING else in his favour whatsoever.

Manny meanwhile is moving up to face a bigger cat. It's like a cheetah vs a leopard a MUCH MUCH tougher fight.

I don't know if you're getting this but really I can't understand how little understanding some people have regarding this.

Above a certain weight, excess weight matters very little because boxing is not about bodyweight, it's about speed, power, strength, height and reach, skill, athleticism etc. Simple mass isn't a huge factor.

Manny is facing a bigger guy who will have a big advantage in natural power and strength, and is also evenly matched in skill, and not far behind in speed.

Ruiz was inferior to Roy Jones in every aspect other than size. Although a good win there is no real reason to believe Jones feat could not have been acomplished by many other fighters. I'm sure other former middleweights in Bernard Hopkins and Joe Calzaghe would be fancied to beat him, James Toney whupped his ass too.

But can you name a single other former flyweight in history who has moved up to welterweight to face the BEST man there (not a paper champ bum like Ruiz)?

No you simply cannot, and that is why its such a great feat.

Make no mistake a win for Manny over Cotto, were he to pull it off sees him join the ranks of Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard and Henry Armstrong as one of the top 10 fighters of all time.

[mnmc10]

adamGb i think your talking to a wall, pacfans/huggers are banned already. i think im the only one left here. and i NEVER mentioned that its easy to lose a pound or two. my only argument about catchweights is that pac is a small guy and only bigger guys are left for him to fight, pac is already pushing it at 140.

mosley is somewhat connected to pac thats why he is saying that its difficult for him. oscar lost all that weight cause he think he will beat pac to a pulp. and the technic he used to lose all that weight is the real cause why he got so weak. he was on the target weight weeks before the weigh in, they figured that odlh will have more time to adjust to his lower weight.

[Mr140]

Roy jones jr win maybe but Evander Holyfeilds wins over Bowie and even Foreman to me would be more impressive then Cotto win and way more impressive then a Oscar Dela Hoya win. Because those were skilled and strong fighters who had a good 20 to 30 pounds over Evander Holyfeild.

[JT Rock]

Ok Bilbo but lets face it weight classes change ever few pounds in lower weight lets see how much has pac moved up like 30 pounds right. While that is good both Jones and Holyfeild have moved up way more. Jones fought at LM comes all the way up to heavyweight and fights Ruiz who was weighing in 30 more pounds then him and 80 pounds more then were he started at that to me is impressive regardless of the talent he had. As for Holyfeild he started at 175 and fought men that were 255 yet again a 80 pound differents and when they came in ring they were 20 to 30 pounds more then he would and he still pull off wins that to me more impressive. Pac has never been out weighed in a fight like Jones or Holyfeild have and by such huge amounts as well i would say.

Well if you believe all that all I can say is that you don't understand either boxing very well or basic human body mechanics.

There is a certain critical mass in boxing beyond which weight alone doesn't contribute as much because it comes at the expense of something else, usually speed and mobility.

A 147 lb, even a 168 lb man can be frighteningly fast and athletic. When you get to heavyweight however pure weight alone isn't an advantage, and in fact can even be a disadvantage.

If it were a wrestling contest where an opponent could make good use of that extra weight it would matter but above say 215 lbs, in a boxing sense, weight and size comes at the expense of size and speed.

Look at the animal kingdom, Lions and tigers (and in the past dinosaurs) can routinely take down and prey upon creatures much larger than themselves because their increased weight and size doesn't help them. It just makes them slow and ponderous. A lions superior mobility, it's powerful claws and body movements can see it easily bring down a wildebeast.

Leopards and cheetas also can bring down gazelles that outweigh them.

But a leopard would be hopeless against a lion because it's too small. The lion is bigger but not too big for its speed and mobility to be compromised. The fact that lions also have fearsome weapons can be an analogy also here in that it can represent talent and skill, punch power etc in boxers.

Roy Jones in moving up to fight John Ruiz was basically a leopard taking on a wildebeast. Ruiz was bigger but had literally NOTHING else in his favour whatsoever.

Manny meanwhile is moving up to face a bigger cat. It's like a cheetah vs a leopard a MUCH MUCH tougher fight.

I don't know if you're getting this but really I can't understand how little understanding some people have regarding this.

Above a certain weight, excess weight matters very little because boxing is not about bodyweight, it's about speed, power, strength, height and reach, skill, athleticism etc. Simple mass isn't a huge factor.

Manny is facing a bigger guy who will have a big advantage in natural power and strength, and is also evenly matched in skill, and not far behind in speed.

Ruiz was inferior to Roy Jones in every aspect other than size. Although a good win there is no real reason to believe Jones feat could not have been acomplished by many other fighters. I'm sure other former middleweights in Bernard Hopkins and Joe Calzaghe would be fancied to beat him, James Toney whupped his ass too.

But can you name a single other former flyweight in history who has moved up to welterweight to face the BEST man there (not a paper champ bum like Ruiz)?

No you simply cannot, and that is why its such a great feat.

Make no mistake a win for Manny over Cotto, were he to pull it off sees him join the ranks of Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard and Henry Armstrong as one of the top 10 fighters of all time.

I answered this along with a bunch of other posters but you chose to ignore and stay on your soap box even though it was ridiculous...You just went on in an exhaustive manner about dinosaurs and predators of the Serengeti.

You can not deny the fact that at 16 a boy is not a full grown mature man, Pac started boxing at that age weighing in at 106lbs. in 16 years a worldclass athlete with all the money to hire strength and conditioning coaches along with nutritionists coupled with the fact Pac has an athletic frame. 30+ pounds of maturation and training in 16 years is not out of the ordinary. NO WAY AROUND IT

As far as the whole higher the weight slower you are, I suggest you watch David Haye or Wlad Klit who have frightening handspeed and power, or watch an NFL football game and see a 6'4 245lb linebacker chase down a 5'11 200lb running back and run him over like a locomotive

[JazMerkin]

One thing I'm sick of hearing Bilbo is that Pac has gone through 8 divisions beating the best in each division, it's just not true, he's had his share of wildebeest as well.

Flyweight - Sasakul (He was the best in the division)

Super-Bantamweight - Ledwaba (A good fighter, but not the best, that was widely considered to be either Oscar Larios or Agapito Sanchez at that time)

Featherweight - Barrera & JMM (No complaints here, they were the best)

Super-Featherweight - Morales & JMM (Lost to EM, when he was the best, than went after him despite Raheem taking the belt. No shame in that, that's where the money was. Then finally fought JMM to decide the best SFW so no complaints here)

Lightweight - David Diaz (Anyone who tries to argue that Diaz was a credible champion is an idiot. He was at least the equivalent of John Ruiz in what was possibly the best division in the sport at that time, & with the likes of Campbell, Juan Diaz & Casamayor available, he went for a guy weaker than a load of guys challenging for the belt)

Light-Welterweight - Ricky Hatton (The best, much respect to Pac for the manner of this as well)

Welterweight - Assuming it's Cotto (NO, not the best in most people's eyes. Mosley beat the man who beat Cotto, hence becoming the best in the division, the general impression has been that Team Pac want no part of Mosley. Cotto on the other hand doesn't look like the fighter he once was.)

Btw, that's 7 divisions. Just because he fought in another for a few fights when he was a malnourished 16 year old doesn't mean he breezed through it.

I have the utmost respect for Pac & what he's accomplished & I think that list above is still unbelievably impressive. Also as for your point about speed, no way is Cotto comparable in speed, the only guy around that weight class who is, is Mayweather.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Its like with Holyfield.

I didn't know he recaptured the Heavyweight Crown a record 17 times?

[AdamGB]

This has a massively simple answer: because he can.

Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.

In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.

That's pretty obvious, but when I say 'why' I am talking about his intention behind doing something, not his ability to do it.

And yes Bilbo... Cotto can agree to fight at whatever he wants to, I'm not evne knocking Pac here... this is just buisiness, some of his fans don't seem to understand how it works though... just giving them a wake up call.

The only part of this thread remotely aimed at you were the world class athletes/trainers saying that even a pound can be highly significant. It doesn't even have to be regarding Pacman at all, I just took issue that a number of posters responded to people saying that drying up even a pound extra could make a huge difference to a (any) fighter as if they were clinically insane.

My opinions on pac are just my opinions, but that^ is a solid fact that Pacfans have been only too happyu to ignore so that they can heap the maximum ammount of praise on Pac possible for beating a name, not the circumstances.

I have to admit I haven't read any of your recent responses properly, I have been on the go since about 7am and it's time for some sleep but I'll be sure to check what has been said.

So doesn't this one pound is significant work both ways?


no, in this case we are talking about the toll and effect that losing a pound too many could take on a fighters electrolyte balance, hydration levels and endocrine system... not simply what one pound of mass will do in the ring.

Why should Manny keep moving up and fighting the best guys in their weight class with them having all the advantage?

I'm not saying that he should or shouldn't, that's his perogative really isn't it. I just think that his fans need to be aware of his strategy before they go apeshit over a win and talk only about the name he beat and not the circumstances

Hasn't he already moved up like 20 lbs? If a single pound counts so much and Manny has moved through 8 weight classes then cut him some slack.

I don't need to, I'm not having a go at the guy, realistically 140 is as high as he can go, he's not interested in moving up in weight now, just getting mega fights and marquee names... like a certain fighter despised by most Pacfans (whilst not as bad he is now being very similar). I'm not having a go at the guy for being small... but his minions need to know how it is.

The point you guys are missing is this.

What Manny is attempting to acomplish has NEVER EVER been acomplished before.

I know, Manny has acheived a lot, he is an all time great and he hasn't even retired yet,I would be stupid to say otherwise, it's not really relevant to what we're talking about though. Nobody is black and white

NO fighter EVER has EVER moved through 8 weight classes and then fought and defeated the BEST opponent in that weight class.

When you say 8 are you including Welterweight or something if so that's a bit of a rich statement to be making

De La Hoya never managed it, he moved through less weight classes and his big fight against Hopkins (also forcing Hop to fight at catchweight he got knocked out). So because Oscar does something it makes it 1005 undebatable for Pac to do the same . Also to play devil's advocate... are we talking about the same Bhop that lived like a monk and barely had to drop any weight at all, if any to make 160?

Duran, Leonard, Hearns never did it, Roy Jones Jr never did (he fought a terrible belt holder not even close to the best at heavyweight).

If Manny beats Cotto or Mosely it is one hell of a feat, considering he's a guy who was once at flyweight. Whether Cotto weighs in at 147 lbs or 145 lbs is simply not the issue.

responses in bold

Of course it would be BIlbo... I'm not saying that he deserves zero credit for it, but the Pac minions need to get it into perspective.

They will give him 147 pounds worth of credit, as if he beat Cotto genuinley at Welterweight (A catchweight is not a weight class... they have a begining and an end... take one away and it's not a weightclass, a weight class affords a fighter the ability to weigh in between a certain range, a catchweight does not... it's that simple).

I can't think of any sport other than boxing where a guy would have concesions made for him by their opponent to make the contest fairer and then have his fans confused as to why some people aren't willing to give 100% of the credit he'd get under the normal circumstances.

What ever the case, if Pac beats Cotto at a catchweight then the credit that he gets for this needs to be taken down a notch from the credit he would get for beating him at Welterweight.

That is not to say that he doesn't deserve a lot of credit for a win but it has to be put into perspective and have the circumstances considered. He was not simply the better man, he was the better man given the consesions that were made.

Sorry to put a downer on a potential win but the inevitable histeria and "second coming of christ" type prasing from Pac minions needs to be dampend. That's not to say that boxing fans can't give the guy his due but lets get it into perspective here, he shouldn't get less than his due he shouldn't get more than his due either.

[Kev]

Ok I won't reply to every point but just a few.

To those who say if Pacquaio wants to fight at welterweight then he should fight at welterweight are missing the point.

Pacquaio doesn't want to fight at welterweight he wants to fight Cotto.

Cotto isn't soley a welterweight, the majority of his career was at junior welter hence he is a junior welter/welterweight.

Manny doesn't give a tuppeny fuck about the WBO welterweight title he wants the prestige of beating the eliter juniorwelter/welter Miguel Cotto.

Both are P4P stars, they are NOT soley single division stars.

The weight class isn't important.

It doesn't taint the purity of the sport in any way. Having Juan Urango as a light welter world champ because Paulie Malignaggi wouldn't pay enough sanctioning fees to these greedy organistations is what taints the sport.

Manny Pacqauio is both bigger and better for the sport than the WBO welterweight strap.

No fan in the world cares about the history or heritage of that belt or any other.

When you watch a fight you arn't watching to see how the history of the WBO belt is going to unfurl they may as well be fighting for marbles or cream eggs, it just doesn't matter.

Manny vs Cotto is one of the biggest and best fights that can be made in our sport, from both a commercial and entertainment point of view, (to say nothing of legacy for both fighters) and anybody who would rather this didn't happen than to see the purity of the WBO belt heritage tarnished is just a complete idiot.

It doesn't matter that its at catchweight, not one single bit. It's still a megafight.

Shall we erase the Leanoard Hearns fight from our memory because it was a catchweight? What about the Gatti Ward trilogy?

Just get over it already, Manny and Cotto are both terrific fighters and a matchup between them would be a tremendous boxing event not just for purists but also for casual fans.

Its the kind of fight that can give boxing a massive shot in the arm but you guys would rather uphold some stupid traditions that don't even apply in a p4p fight between fighters of DIFFERENT weight classes.

Manny can fight at 135, 140, 147 he doesn't exist soley in any single division he is a p4p star.

Miguel can fight at 140 or 147, again he doesn't exist soley in any single division he is a p4p star.

Whether its at 145 or 147 is irelevent. Whether that height of prestige, the much coveted WBO strap is on the line is also irelevent.

It's all about two p4p stars meeting in the ring and giving us one hell of a fight.