Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
I don't think Berto is ready for a Pac fight yet. I suggest Berto fight Mosley or Berto and/or Mosley fight Marquez for a shot at Pac. I like the Marquez trilogy idea, but I agree with Miles, I would like to see Marquez prove himself above 135 first - even at 140. In the time being once Bradley beats Alexander in January, he could step up and fight Pacquiao in April. He's done more to prove himself at 147 than Marquez has.
- Bradley
- Marquez/Berto/Mosley - after they fight eachother.
What JMM proved already, is that he gave Pacman a better fight then any opponent since(I did like the Pacman vs Diaz fight). Berto should fight Mosley but not as an eliminator. He have to walk across the street alone at some point. Since Mosely is consider over the hill, will Mosley consider a tune up? Don't think so?
Bradley proved himself? What fight was that proven? If nothing else, Bradley vs Berto should have been the fight instead of Bradley vs Abregu at 147.
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Oscar in "Being a hypocrite shock." ;D
Well i never.
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.
Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.
How is that fair?
Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.
Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.
You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.
Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.
That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.
Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.
Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.
How is that fair?
Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.
Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.
You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.
Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.
That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.
Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.
I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
The fairest system is to completely ban Catch weights... And then get rid of the completely TOXIC 24-hour prior weight-ins, resorting back to same day weigh-ins but then enforce and regulate rules regarding any competitors weight at various critical stages of from the lead-up, right up until the fight (starting at the date of signing or even negotiation).
That way, you wont get a bunch of Middleweights fighting at Welterweigt, some of which are straining to make lightwelterweight to fight a Welterweight ;)
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
and for the record ODLH is being a douche bag.
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
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Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I hate all these catchweights and wish Manny would stop playing games with them, but having said that DLH should be the last person to be criticising Manny on this.
Cotto at 145 was unfair, but Cotto should have turned it down. Likewise, I hope Marquez sees sense and stays away from Pac if it is anything above 140. It is just not worth it. At 37 he cannot handle the weight like the younger Manny can. Marquez is a naturally smaller fighter.
Was it really relevant though? Cotto only weighed 146 for his fight against Joshua Clottey.
I don't really called losing a single pound a deal breaker. I know (as AdamGB will doubtless explain to me) a certain point below which fighters cannot drop, but 145 isn't it for Cotto. He has come up from the lower weights and weighed as low as 136 against Mallignaggi in June 2006.
Cotto would have got massacred catchweight or not, and only would have weighed a pound more.
The idea that Manny always fights at catchweight is completely overblown. Oscar wasn't a catchweight, it was at 147. Hatton wasn't at catchweight, it was at junior welter, Ricky's weight class. Clottey wasn't at catchweight either, it was at welter. Margarito was at 150 lbs but I don't see how this was at a detriment to Margarito considered he weighed under 146 against Shane Mosley only two fights previously.
Critics and moaners will always exist, but what Manny has done has been sensational.
If it wasn't relevant then why was it there? I'm sure it wasn't Cotto begging to come in at 145. The fight should have been at 147 with no questions asked. WW was a weight that Cotto had grown into. They also suggested ages back that they would only fight Mosley if he could boil down to 142. As if Mosley could ever make 142.
The DLH fight was old orange faces fault, so no blame can be put at Manny's door. And I agree that the Margarito catchweight was less questionable, it was certainly no advantage for Manny. That was a strange one.
I would just like to see title fights at the correct weights. I don't really see the need for CW's and I certainly see no reason why the worlds best fighter should be looking for little short cuts so that his nights work can be even easier.
Suggesting Marquez go anywhere north of JWW is extremely arrogant and disrespectful considering that Manny was extremely lucky to get the nod in that last fight. Manny is the one with something to prove so to stop the fight with demands before it even starts is unfair. At least offer the fans something credible like with the DLH fight. Let Manny come down a division and let Marquez go up one and meet at JWW. Anything more is just being greedy and stopping the potential of a great fight before it even starts. Marquez hasn't proven he can fight at the higher weights and Manny has shown no good reason why he couldn't make JWW.
So what you are saying is that when a fighter drops weight to meet Manny, they are at a disadvantage, and when a fighter must gain weight to fight Manny they are equally disadvantaged. The only fair solution is that Manny must yoyo up and down the divisions, no catchweights to beat all his challengers, even though he is the prize and the big payday.
Maybe he should be forced to wear lead boots as well, or have one arm tied behind his back if he starts to dominate the early rounds?
Also how is Manny the one with something to prove? Since beating Marquez he has won world titles in four more weight classes and is the p4p best fighter in the world. I have never met anyone with as blinkered a view on things as you Miles. You are the most biased person I've ever met!
i dont think he said that no bro
its funny sometimes this forum :)
He said Manny was wrong to drag Oscar and Cotto down in weight. And it would be arrogant and disrespectful to make Marquez move up??
How did he not say that?
every situation is different dude
marquez is small COTTO IS BIG so you cant really group it together like you did, get me?
you suggested that it made no difference to bring cotto down a couple of pounds, if thats the case then why do it?
i like pacman, but id also like to see him go into a fight where there are no new rules
It's to prevent one fighter from having an unfair size advantage on fight night.
In boxing fighters don't weigh in the same day of the fight, meaning that they can dehydrate to a weight less than their actual bodyweight and then rehydrate sometimes up to 10/15 lbs more for the fight itself, meaning that Manny would be fighting a far bigger man, as was the case against Margarito, where he weighed 17 pounds less!
If you want true fairness in the sport, the weigh in should be on the same day, to prevent fighters boiling down to fight in a weight class that they do not walk around in.
By having to weight 145 rather 146 Cotto had less potential to rehydrate to a weight significantly higher than Manny by the time of the fight itself.
It's not hard to understand why this was done.
What if they would have agreed a same day weigh in? Cotto could weight 147 but the weigh in must take place in the morning of the fight? That would have been fairer, and would have helped Manny a lot more.
when rehydrating, is a starting weight of 1lb less gonna make that much difference? The only purpose i can see it serving is to put as much extra strain on cottos body as posible
I think same day weigh ins have cause a lot of health problems havent they?
like i said man i like pacman, and i will continue to tune in, i would just like to see him fight for the welterweight title at welterweight
as a result of all the money and possibilities after victory that were offered to cotto he took the fight at the agreed catch weight, thats fair enough, the posible gains outweighed the risks.
as a result i dont think pacmans welterweight or lightmiddleweight world titles are the most legitimate
for the record, i think he would have won anyway
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ant Live
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
I don't think Berto is ready for a Pac fight yet. I suggest Berto fight Mosley or Berto and/or Mosley fight Marquez for a shot at Pac. I like the Marquez trilogy idea, but I agree with Miles, I would like to see Marquez prove himself above 135 first - even at 140. In the time being once Bradley beats Alexander in January, he could step up and fight Pacquiao in April. He's done more to prove himself at 147 than Marquez has.
- Bradley
- Marquez/Berto/Mosley - after they fight eachother.
What JMM proved already, is that he gave Pacman a better fight then any opponent since(I did like the Pacman vs Diaz fight). Berto should fight Mosley but not as an eliminator. He have to walk across the street alone at some point. Since Mosely is consider over the hill, will Mosley consider a tune up? Don't think so?
Bradley proved himself? What fight was that proven? If nothing else, Bradley vs Berto should have been the fight instead of Bradley vs Abregu at 147.
Bradley only proved himself in the sense that he has won a fight at 147, even if it is against Abregu. He showed that he could compete at that size. He also has the best resume at 140 with solid victories at 140 over Nate Campbell, Lamont Peterson, Kendall Holt, and Junior Witter etc. And his next fight is a unification fight against the second (or third) best junior welterweight around in Devon Alexander plus it's on HBO. Bradley is an Afro American fighter too and Pacquiao has received criticism for not fighting Afro American fighters. At 27, Bradley is in his prime - Marquez is 37 and Mosley is 39.
Marquez was Pac's toughest opponent, but that was at 130. In a perfect world, Pacquiao would fight Marquez at 135, but Pacquiao has grown too much for that weight class. Marquez has never fought at 140 and lost his only fight at 147. I'm not sure a Pacquiao/Marquez fight at 147 is a great fight until Marquez beats someone worthwhile at 147 or at least at 140.
Mosley doesn't have to fight Berto, Marquez could fight Mosley at 147 for a chance against Pacquiao. It's a relatively big money fight. That way, we see if Marquez can handle 147 and if Mosley is too aged to pose a challenge against Pacquiao.
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I hate all these catchweights and wish Manny would stop playing games with them, but having said that DLH should be the last person to be criticising Manny on this.
Cotto at 145 was unfair, but Cotto should have turned it down. Likewise, I hope Marquez sees sense and stays away from Pac if it is anything above 140. It is just not worth it. At 37 he cannot handle the weight like the younger Manny can. Marquez is a naturally smaller fighter.
Was it really relevant though? Cotto only weighed 146 for his fight against Joshua Clottey.
I don't really called losing a single pound a deal breaker. I know (as AdamGB will doubtless explain to me) a certain point below which fighters cannot drop, but 145 isn't it for Cotto. He has come up from the lower weights and weighed as low as 136 against Mallignaggi in June 2006.
Cotto would have got massacred catchweight or not, and only would have weighed a pound more.
The idea that Manny always fights at catchweight is completely overblown. Oscar wasn't a catchweight, it was at 147. Hatton wasn't at catchweight, it was at junior welter, Ricky's weight class. Clottey wasn't at catchweight either, it was at welter. Margarito was at 150 lbs but I don't see how this was at a detriment to Margarito considered he weighed under 146 against Shane Mosley only two fights previously.
Critics and moaners will always exist, but what Manny has done has been sensational.
If it wasn't relevant then why was it there? I'm sure it wasn't Cotto begging to come in at 145. The fight should have been at 147 with no questions asked. WW was a weight that Cotto had grown into. They also suggested ages back that they would only fight Mosley if he could boil down to 142. As if Mosley could ever make 142.
The DLH fight was old orange faces fault, so no blame can be put at Manny's door. And I agree that the Margarito catchweight was less questionable, it was certainly no advantage for Manny. That was a strange one.
I would just like to see title fights at the correct weights. I don't really see the need for CW's and I certainly see no reason why the worlds best fighter should be looking for little short cuts so that his nights work can be even easier.
Suggesting Marquez go anywhere north of JWW is extremely arrogant and disrespectful considering that Manny was extremely lucky to get the nod in that last fight. Manny is the one with something to prove so to stop the fight with demands before it even starts is unfair. At least offer the fans something credible like with the DLH fight. Let Manny come down a division and let Marquez go up one and meet at JWW. Anything more is just being greedy and stopping the potential of a great fight before it even starts. Marquez hasn't proven he can fight at the higher weights and Manny has shown no good reason why he couldn't make JWW.
So what you are saying is that when a fighter drops weight to meet Manny, they are at a disadvantage, and when a fighter must gain weight to fight Manny they are equally disadvantaged. The only fair solution is that Manny must yoyo up and down the divisions, no catchweights to beat all his challengers, even though he is the prize and the big payday.
Maybe he should be forced to wear lead boots as well, or have one arm tied behind his back if he starts to dominate the early rounds?
Also how is Manny the one with something to prove? Since beating Marquez he has won world titles in four more weight classes and is the p4p best fighter in the world. I have never met anyone with as blinkered a view on things as you Miles. You are the most biased person I've ever met!
i dont think he said that no bro
its funny sometimes this forum :)
No, I don't quite think I was saying that either.
I think I was suggesting it to be a good idea for Manny to agree to go down a weight and ask Marquez to make an equal sacrifice in going up in weight and for them to both agree on sharing the difference at 140. Considering that most of the experts thought Marquez won the last fight, that would be the gentlemanly thing for Manny to do.
Miles did you know Pac did JMM a favor by not moving up right away and giving the fight to JMM at JMM's current division? Pacs camp always were in the brink of moving up a division when Pac fights JMM but Pac postpones the move up and gives JMM the fight. JMM has had plenty of opportunities already, he comes up short.
Pac reached his prime above lightweight - I dont see why he should move back below that. The lowest Pac should go down is 140 and you are right they should fight at that weight. But its funny the same people who root for pacs defeat are the same people who are quick to scream blasphemy when there is a catchweight.
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.
Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.
How is that fair?
Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.
Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.
You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.
Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.
That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.
Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.
I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.
I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.
If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.
I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?
If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?
By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.
If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.
When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.
In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.
Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.
Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.
How is that fair?
Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.
Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.
You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.
Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.
That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.
Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.
I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.
I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.
If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.
I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?
If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?
By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.
If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.
When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.
In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.
Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.
dont forget Manny is fighting above his natural weight class, so they cant/shouldnt change the rules to suit him
if he wants to step out of his weight class then he will be fighting bigger fighters wouldnt he?
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.
Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.
How is that fair?
Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.
Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.
You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.
Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.
That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.
Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.
I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.
I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.
If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.
I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?
If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?
By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.
If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.
When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.
In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.
Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.
dont forget Manny is fighting above his natural weight class, so they cant/shouldnt change the rules to suit him
if he wants to step out of his weight class then he will be fighting bigger fighters wouldnt he?
They aren't changing the rules to suit him. Catchweights have been a feature of boxing for decades. The Gatti Ward fights were at catchweight, the second Leonard Hearns fight was at catchweight, even Oscar dragged Bernard Hopkins down to a catchweight.
As I explained above, catchweights exist for a reason. To enable a smaller man to fight a bigger man on a level playing field.
I don't understand how fight fans want to put obstacles in front of the biggest fights being made. A fighter like Manny is a phenonemon, a rare talent who is skillful enough, and brave enough to step far outside of his comfort zone and climb through more weight classes than any other fighter in history.
Because of the 24 hour weigh in rule, his size disadvantage is already compounded by ensuring that his opponents can weigh even more than the agrred maximum weight limit come fight time, so when fighting for a welter weight title, his opponents routinely weight over 150lbs and for a light middleweight crown, they can climb over the ropes weighing even more than a middleweight.
By having a fighter agree to a catchweight (and Manny has only done this twice in his career!!) that fighter has less opportunity to rehydrate far above the maximum weight limit by the time the fight takes place.
To say that Cotto and Margarito (his only ever catchweight fights) were disadvantaged is unfair. Both fighters actually weighed MORE than the 147 and 154 limits when the fights actually occurred, and neither had to lose excessive weigh in the first place.
Cotto gave up only a single pound more than he did against Clottey, and Margarito has been a career welterweight who weighed 4 lbs below 150 against Shane Mosley.
The whole argument is a complete straw man.
Manny has been tearing through guys because he really is that good (either that or PEDS if you think he's cheating), not because his opponents have been forced to drain themselves, as no fighter has ever had to step over the ropes weighing anything less than the maximum weight limit.
It's typical for people for moan and gripe, because large sections of the human race are sadly almost entirely negative, just witness the histrionics regarding the huge burden the Royal wedding will put on the poor British taxpayers for example. In fact now schools are complaining the wedding is in April as it will interrupt the poor kids as they revise for their GCSE's.
Some people will want to put a negative spin on everything, but they simply cannot see the woods for the trees.
Manny is a sensational, sensational talent. He has done what no other fighter in history has done, yet people still moan about him.
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
I still belive if you're dumb enough to fight at these catchweights and give pac the advantage that's your bad. Pac and his team are smart in their matchmaking and you can't fault the guy for that. But i am tired of seeing catchweights. It's crazy that manny can't make welter with a full stomach but he's considered champ. He's had no problem draining other fighters but won't even consider dropping to make the fight more fair with marquez. Everyone damn near shed a tear when mayweather beat up on a so called smaller guy yet people want to see pac do the same thing. This is one time i happen to agree with pac and his crew. Fight at 147 or 140 no more stupid catchweights. Same should be for pac and any of his future opponets. Should have been like that for his past one's too. Since when it comes to marquez they are so so sold on 147 or nothing then let that be the same for mosely, berto, martinez, whoever. Don't say i'll fight juan at 147 but actual 147 guys at 144 that's as silly as andre ward fighting all his fights at home. Can't knock ward for getting his opponets to agree to that crap either.......but it's getting old. If marquez and pac did fight, i still think pac would win again. Just for the record.
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.
Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.
How is that fair?
Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.
Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.
You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.
Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.
That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.
Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.
I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.
I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.
If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.
I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?
If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?
By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.
If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.
When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.
In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.
Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.
dont forget Manny is fighting above his natural weight class, so
they cant/shouldnt change the rules to suit him
if he wants to step out of his weight class then he will be fighting bigger fighters wouldnt he?
But no rules have been changed. Catchweights has been in existence even before Manny came into the boxing scene.
There are two sides to this debate. One is the perception that Manny's camp has been asking for the catchweight in order to have an advantage over the opponent. The other is that the catchweight is there so that the opponent does not get an advantage over Manny.
Manny can easily get someone to fight him whereas those who are in line to fight him are waiting for that once in a lifetime opportunity. A win for them will do wonders in their boxing career. Since there is a conflict in the perception above, who do you think should give in?
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.
Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.
How is that fair?
Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.
Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.
You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.
Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.
That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.
Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.
I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.
I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.
If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.
I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?
If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?
By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.
If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.
When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.
In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.
Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.
Surely same day weigh-ins would just mean they wouldn't be able to make the weight, so everyone would just be fighting at a higher division rather than handicapping themselves to make the lower weights, then if Pac or anyone else wanted these fights they would have to move up to that weight anyway?
