OK, that helps. But one of the best in the business at a point in time or across time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
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OK, that helps. But one of the best in the business at a point in time or across time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
See THAT is a post that makes sense to me. Quantifying the question. This idea of elite raises another issue I see and that is often labling top 1% fighters as "average" or "B-level" or some such thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
The fact is the top 1% at ANYTHING is an exceptional performer (in that time period anyway). The problem of course is we almost never even mention, or are aware of, a truly mathematically average fighter. Heck almost everyone we talk about is a top 1% guy.
Dude bilbo is slowly growing to genius status in my book. Ha I feel like his posts are almost literally the exact same arguments and opinions that i would state.
That's very true of any sport though, and justifiably so. It's only due to the landscape of pro boxing that one might overstate the lines . You talk about anyone in MLS, the NFL, the NBA, you are talking more along the lines of the top .01% of guys who play proffessionaly. There are no average baseball players on the Yankees, it's just common sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiSee THAT is a post that makes sense to me. Quantifying the question. This idea of elite raises another issue I see and that is often labling top 1% fighters as "average" or "B-level" or some such thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
The fact is the top 1% at ANYTHING is an exceptional performer (in that time period anyway). The problem of course is we almost never even mention, or are aware of, a truly mathematically average fighter. Heck almost everyone we talk about is a top 1% guy.
Bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingThat's very true of any sport though, and justifiably so. It's only due to the landscape of pro boxing that one might overstate the lines . You talk about anyone in MLS, the NFL, the NBA, you are talking more along the lines of the top .01% of guys who play proffessionaly. There are no average baseball players on the Yankees, it's just common sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiSee THAT is a post that makes sense to me. Quantifying the question. This idea of elite raises another issue I see and that is often labling top 1% fighters as "average" or "B-level" or some such thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
The fact is the top 1% at ANYTHING is an exceptional performer (in that time period anyway). The problem of course is we almost never even mention, or are aware of, a truly mathematically average fighter. Heck almost everyone we talk about is a top 1% guy.
Zab Judah is the classic example of overrated. He has never won a really meaningful fight. I guess his best win was over Spinks and I'm not sure what that really says. He has never beat the man in his division. Since his foray back into the junior welterweight division, he's beat Mabuza and Matthysse, and the win against Matthysse was questionable, but a win nonetheless.
Is he elite as far as professional boxers all over the world? Certainly. However, is he elite, in the way the a lay person thinks of elite when considering boxing - "top of the game," "a true talent," "a beast," "p4p" etc. - no, he isn't. Is he a good opponent for Khan given Bradley isn't available? Yes, completely. Do I think Zab beats any of the top guys at 140? No. Yet, he has a puncher's chance in the first 5 or so rounds, which will make it somewhat interesting. I'm not a huge Khan fan, but I think Khan dominates this one.
Spinks was the man in the division when he beat him. You may not rate him but after the fight he was the uinfied, undisputed, lineal and Ring champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Zab is a legit threat at 140. He already holds a close win (disputed) over Matthyse, who proved against Alexander that he is certainly one of the top guys in the weight class. There are only two guys in the division I think are better than Zab, Bradley and Khan. I'd give him an excellent chance over Maidana, Alexander, Morales and Kotelnik. He'd get beat by Gurrero or Marquez if they moved up though, although he'd be a better opponent at 140 than Marquez has ever beat above super featherweight and would have a real chance of upsetting him imo.
Reminds me of Dylan's song "Don't think twice" where he says "goodbye is too fine a word, babe, so I'll just say fare thee well."
Elite is too fine a word for Judah despite all the fine tuning of the definition to try to make it fit. It soars. Judah ... does not.
I actually think Judah might well have beatem Marquez at any point in time, although I completely rate JMM as a better fighter overall, even still. After watching how little Marquez could do against Mayweather and having gone back and watched him fight Norwood I really think Marquez would be the one with a punchers chance against Zab, it's a baaad style matchup imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboSpinks was the man in the division when he beat him. You may not rate him but after the fight he was the uinfied, undisputed, lineal and Ring champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Zab is a legit threat at 140. He already holds a close win (disputed) over Matthyse, who proved against Alexander that he is certainly one of the top guys in the weight class. There are only two guys in the division I think are better than Zab, Bradley and Khan. I'd give him an excellent chance over Maidana, Alexander, Morales and Kotelnik. He'd get beat by Gurrero or Marquez if they moved up though, although he'd be a better opponent at 140 than Marquez has ever beat above super featherweight and would have a real chance of upsetting him imo.
Can I create my own option... Here it is.
[x] This is a joke right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
I was waiting for you to show up, i know how much you love Zab;D
Elite in todayz 140 division? Yes.
Who are you???:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel "Chubby" Medina
:D
No way zab beats maidana he would mentally unravel after he hits maidana with his best shots and maidana keeps comming. maidana ko 9 or 10Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboSpinks was the man in the division when he beat him. You may not rate him but after the fight he was the uinfied, undisputed, lineal and Ring champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Zab is a legit threat at 140. He already holds a close win (disputed) over Matthyse, who proved against Alexander that he is certainly one of the top guys in the weight class. There are only two guys in the division I think are better than Zab, Bradley and Khan. I'd give him an excellent chance over Maidana, Alexander, Morales and Kotelnik. He'd get beat by Gurrero or Marquez if they moved up though, although he'd be a better opponent at 140 than Marquez has ever beat above super featherweight and would have a real chance of upsetting him imo.
lol. I did feel like a moron making this thread but it turns out more people think he's elite than i expected.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
It all really depends on what "elite" means to you in boxing.
To me, Judah dreams of being elite. :)