SRL is 36 and RJJ is 49, so based on the numbers it is SRL.
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SRL is 36 and RJJ is 49, so based on the numbers it is SRL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
that is very easy to say
were you around in the srl era to really asses?
leanard lost to a man naturally a couiple fo weights below him, i really couldnt see that ever happening to jones
Jones has alot in his favour too. First man and only man, to move up from middleweight to heavyweight and capture titles on his way up, voted fighter of the decade, and held more titles than anyone else at one time.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
that is very easy to say
were you around in the srl era to really asses?
leanard lost to a man naturally a couiple fo weights below him, i really couldnt see that ever happening to jones
End of the day ya can only beat whats put in front of you. Leonard was fortunate he was around at a time when we had several other greats to compare him against and each other.
and you really only had so many greats because of the lack of interest in the heaviesQuote:
Originally Posted by MattyhitmanJones has alot in his favour too. First man and only man, to move up from middleweight to heavyweight and capture titles on his way up, voted fighter of the decade, and held more titles than anyone else at one time.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
that is very easy to say
were you around in the srl era to really asses?
leanard lost to a man naturally a couiple fo weights below him, i really couldnt see that ever happening to jones
End of the day ya can only beat whats put in front of you. Leonard was fortunate he was around at a time when we had several other greats to compare him against and each other.
everyone turned to the lower weights for the entertainment
im not saying they werent great fighters who had great battles im just saying they are better remembered and got more exposure because nobody cared for the big fellas
The "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
I disagree, I had Jones winning the 1st Tarver fight & Tarver was the #1 contender going into that fight & was no push over! I don't care much for the win over Ruiz but he had to cut back down in weight for the Tarver fight. Jones was basically untouchable until around 2004. Jones dominated from 154 to 175 for a period of roughly 15 years, defeating the likes of Hopkins, Toney, McCallum & Tarver (also a whole host of other top contenders)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Granted, prior to being knocked out by Tarver in 2004, Jones was better than most of his competition. My point is, unlike SRL, up until 2004 Jones really had no "defining" fights and/or fights where he was really tested. Well guess what, the competition finally got better, and when Jones started fighting pugs who were his equal, he wasn't up to the challenge. As long as Jones was dealing out the punishment he was great, but as soon as someone gave him a taste of his own medicine, he was toast.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyI disagree, I had Jones winning the 1st Tarver fight & Tarver was the #1 contender going into that fight & was no push over! I don't care much for the win over Ruiz but he had to cut back down in weight for the Tarver fight. Jones was basically untouchable until around 2004. Jones dominated from 154 to 175 for a period of roughly 15 years, defeating the likes of Hopkins, Toney, McCallum & Tarver (also a whole host of other top contenders)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
I base much of a fighters greatness by how well they come back from adversity, this is a big part of the reason why pugs like SRL, Louis, Marciano, Ali, et al, are all-time greats, and why Roy Jones Jr. is not. (at least not in my top 100)
SRL has the Joe Montana, Michael Jordan, David Freese, quality: Big game moments. High Drama.
RJJ is more like Peyton Manning, which is no insult of course. He was undoubtedly the best in the game but never had quite that defining moment in the clutch.
Only Ali had a more dramatic career than SRL imo, which of course is a function of having great competition. He even won when he lost, choosing to go toe 2 toe with Duran. That sort of passion distinguishes him. It’s a narrative, a great story with chapters, that ultimately culminates in one of the sport’s greatest warriors quitting. A defeat worse than a KO.
Then comes the jewel in the crown, imo: Hearns I, which is even more significant that Hagler because both fighters were in their prime and SRL has to come from behind to win. He changes styles and pursues arguably the hardest hitting welter in history, culminating in one of the most dramatic late round stoppages in boxing history. This scenario almost repeats itself in their 2ndn bout.
RJJ never had stuff like that, and certainly was never able to pull off a dramatic win past his prime, as SRL did with Hagler. RJJ was just a physical phenom. But even in this category there are questions about his chin and of PED use.
So I go with SRL.
I sort of get what your saying, but just because Jones wasn't really tested doesn't mean he didn't have any defining fights, I mean Toney was considered a top p4p guy when they fought, Hopkins wasn't the finished product he became but was still dangerous. When he fought Tarver the 1st time I think that was Tarver at his best. Age caught up with Jones & because he never had great fundamentals to begin with once he slowed down he started getting caught.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axGranted, prior to being knocked out by Tarver in 2004, Jones was better than most of his competition. My point is, unlike SRL, up until 2004 Jones really had no "defining" fights and/or fights where he was really tested. Well guess what, the competition finally got better, and when Jones started fighting pugs who were his equal, he wasn't up to the challenge. As long as Jones was dealing out the punishment he was great, but as soon as someone gave him a taste of his own medicine, he was toast.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyI disagree, I had Jones winning the 1st Tarver fight & Tarver was the #1 contender going into that fight & was no push over! I don't care much for the win over Ruiz but he had to cut back down in weight for the Tarver fight. Jones was basically untouchable until around 2004. Jones dominated from 154 to 175 for a period of roughly 15 years, defeating the likes of Hopkins, Toney, McCallum & Tarver (also a whole host of other top contenders)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
I base much of a fighters greatness by how well they come back from adversity, this is a big part of the reason why pugs like SRL, Louis, Marciano, Ali, et al, are all-time greats, and why Roy Jones Jr. is not. (at least not in my top 100)
Are you serious ? honestly thats absolute garbage, the reason he lost is because he was 35 year's old, and dropped a huge amount of weight. Tarver, Johnson, are stiffer competition than fighters like Toney ? Hopkins ? Hill ? really ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
And didn't SRL also get destroyed by Terry Norris ? and he was younger than RJJ and was coming off a one sided win over Robert Duran.
RJJ winning the Heavyweight title was no great achievement ? it hadn't been done in a century and John Ruiz was coming over flooring a good version of Evander Holyfield. But according to you its not a great achievement.
Talk about total disrespect for a great fighter honestly.
Anything after Ruiz doesn't count for me. That's just my opinion of course.
RJJs resume aint great, but the way he beat Toney and McCallum to name a couple, shows me that he was no 'hype job'.
I think after the 'golden era' hvys were coming off of they were due for a let down. But at the end of the day credit to Leonard, Hearns, Duran and company...they were just that good. I think they would demand the spotlight in any era.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44and you really only had so many greats because of the lack of interest in the heaviesQuote:
Originally Posted by MattyhitmanJones has alot in his favour too. First man and only man, to move up from middleweight to heavyweight and capture titles on his way up, voted fighter of the decade, and held more titles than anyone else at one time.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
that is very easy to say
were you around in the srl era to really asses?
leanard lost to a man naturally a couiple fo weights below him, i really couldnt see that ever happening to jones
End of the day ya can only beat whats put in front of you. Leonard was fortunate he was around at a time when we had several other greats to compare him against and each other.
everyone turned to the lower weights for the entertainment
im not saying they werent great fighters who had great battles im just saying they are better remembered and got more exposure because nobody cared for the big fellas
Rivalry sells big time.
Lots of things saw the exposure, massive was the explosion of 'free' network coverage every weekend. Leonard was basically a free agent early on bouncing around where Jones hit big prominence and literally became a one network man. Both rode the early Olympic hype & medals out of respected years but Leonard and company also saw the boycott of 80, which may have helped keep focus on them.
It was definately a cracking mix of top level fighters all there at thee same time and kind of headlined by leonard
Im not denying that
If pac and mayweather would of got it on a couple of times and there was maybe another fighter in the mix then maybe we would have that kind of situation now
Like you say tho the olympics, the boycott, the tv, the lack of heavies, the mix of fighters, the comeback by leonard, rocky balboa, all made it a very rememberable era and that will influence the vast majority of people to vote srl when asked this question
And perhaps he deserves it for his contribution, lb4lb tho id say jones would have taken it peak v peak
Jones was awesome, was leonard ever quite as awesome?
Your love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBAre you serious ? honestly thats absolute garbage, the reason he lost is because he was 35 year's old, and dropped a huge amount of weight. Tarver, Johnson, are stiffer competition than fighters like Toney ? Hopkins ? Hill ? really ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
And didn't SRL also get destroyed by Terry Norris ? and he was younger than RJJ and was coming off a one sided win over Robert Duran.
RJJ winning the Heavyweight title was no great achievement ? it hadn't been done in a century and John Ruiz was coming over flooring a good version of Evander Holyfield. But according to you its not a great achievement.
Talk about total disrespect for a great fighter honestly.
[QUOTE=Galaxy;1020619][QUOTE=Mars_ax;1020611]I can honestly say I never once bought one of RJJ's suckass PPV's.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyI sort of get what your saying, but just because Jones wasn't really tested doesn't mean he didn't have any defining fights, I mean Toney was considered a top p4p guy when they fought, Hopkins wasn't the finished product he became but was still dangerous. When he fought Tarver the 1st time I think that was Tarver at his best. Age caught up with Jones & because he never had great fundamentals to begin with once he slowed down he started getting caught.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax