Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JuGGERNAUT666
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JuGGERNAUT666
Tysons best performance was against Holmes..despite his 38 years of age,he showed how easily he was starting to slip jabs and holmes had the best in boxing history he was hard to hit countered perfectly and when larry pissed him off after the 3rd round..Tyson decided to end it in the 4th...Holmes was also never knocked out before that.
Its hard to pin point alis best..tthe liston fights were shady he fought Cleveland Williams 6 months after he was shot and never fully recovered and Foreman really punched himself out and made Ali not rreally work at all knowing foreman would gas out ?Im not going to include Frazier because Ali knew he would win if it went past 12..Fraziers K.o record against 215 plus guys is non existant?I would say Liston the first fight assuming it was real?
Tyson would utterly destroy liston in evry category from skill to chin in what world would Liston win this fight?He was beating guys set up by the mob who weighed 185/190 pounds with bad records...Floyd Patterson was great.....for 185 pounds?Floyd was also down 17 times in his career not to hard to beat for 220 pound liston.Tyson beat bigger guys than liston and beat them easy.
Most top guys Tyson fought would give ali trouble....lets say for argument sake ali beats them all,so what?No one came close to beating prime Tyson 1985/1988...in the end its how he beat them,ali struggled with far less level guys than Tyson did which gives Tyson credibility over Ali.Tyson out of his prime beat 6'3 245 pound Bruno and 6'3 235 pound Ruddock 2 guys that would give ali trouble,especially Ruddock,he had a left hook with more power and range than Fraziers.After those guys Tyson was out/out of his prime and put on to much uneccessary muscle which slowed him down,he became irrelevant by the holyfield fight.
James Tillis gave a prime Mike Tyson problems, winning 4 rounds out of 10. And was unlucky to get knocked down in the 4th round, a round he was clearly winning because he lunged in stupidly and got caught off balance.
Tillis had some comparison's with Ali the footwork and being able to tie up Tyson, which was one of Tyson's biggest weaknesses. I think that fight pretty much laid the blue print on how to beat Tyson.
Tyson in the Ruddock fight was not out of his prime, i love how people make excuses for Tyson. Because he struggled somewhat in both Ruddock fights, just because he lost to Douglas because he came in unprepared doesn't mean his prime is over forever.
Plenty of fighters have comeback from losses and looked as good as ever, Tyson looked sharp in both Ruddock fights. Its only because Ruddock was as tough as hell that he survived with Tyson because he did have broken ribs and a broken jaw.
You don't know what your talking about prime is when your at your peak not age.That pretty much crushes you opinions,they are opinion because the fact is priome is not an age its a time period.Tyson looked sharp in Ruddock fights shows what a prime Tyson was capable of nothing more nothing less.
The only legendary fighter Tyson beat was way out of prime regarding age and time period.
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
Michael Spinks is legendary but at a lighter weight class.
People can big up Tyson all they like but due to his style alone 25-27 was as long as he could hang at the elite level had he kept Rooney or had Cuts lived, or had he steered clear of drugs and jail. He was a pressure fighter with pop end of discussion! Pressure fighters have an expiration date more so than any other style FACT.
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JuGGERNAUT666
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JuGGERNAUT666
Tysons best performance was against Holmes..despite his 38 years of age,he showed how easily he was starting to slip jabs and holmes had the best in boxing history he was hard to hit countered perfectly and when larry pissed him off after the 3rd round..Tyson decided to end it in the 4th...Holmes was also never knocked out before that.
Its hard to pin point alis best..tthe liston fights were shady he fought Cleveland Williams 6 months after he was shot and never fully recovered and Foreman really punched himself out and made Ali not rreally work at all knowing foreman would gas out ?Im not going to include Frazier because Ali knew he would win if it went past 12..Fraziers K.o record against 215 plus guys is non existant?I would say Liston the first fight assuming it was real?
Tyson would utterly destroy liston in evry category from skill to chin in what world would Liston win this fight?He was beating guys set up by the mob who weighed 185/190 pounds with bad records...Floyd Patterson was great.....for 185 pounds?Floyd was also down 17 times in his career not to hard to beat for 220 pound liston.Tyson beat bigger guys than liston and beat them easy.
Most top guys Tyson fought would give ali trouble....lets say for argument sake ali beats them all,so what?No one came close to beating prime Tyson 1985/1988...in the end its how he beat them,ali struggled with far less level guys than Tyson did which gives Tyson credibility over Ali.Tyson out of his prime beat 6'3 245 pound Bruno and 6'3 235 pound Ruddock 2 guys that would give ali trouble,especially Ruddock,he had a left hook with more power and range than Fraziers.After those guys Tyson was out/out of his prime and put on to much uneccessary muscle which slowed him down,he became irrelevant by the holyfield fight.
James Tillis gave a prime Mike Tyson problems, winning 4 rounds out of 10. And was unlucky to get knocked down in the 4th round, a round he was clearly winning because he lunged in stupidly and got caught off balance.
Tillis had some comparison's with Ali the footwork and being able to tie up Tyson, which was one of Tyson's biggest weaknesses. I think that fight pretty much laid the blue print on how to beat Tyson.
Tyson in the Ruddock fight was not out of his prime, i love how people make excuses for Tyson. Because he struggled somewhat in both Ruddock fights, just because he lost to Douglas because he came in unprepared doesn't mean his prime is over forever.
Plenty of fighters have comeback from losses and looked as good as ever, Tyson looked sharp in both Ruddock fights. Its only because Ruddock was as tough as hell that he survived with Tyson because he did have broken ribs and a broken jaw.
You don't know what your talking about prime is when your at your peak not age.That pretty much crushes you opinions,they are opinion because the fact is priome is not an age its a time period.Tyson looked sharp in Ruddock fights shows what a prime Tyson was capable of nothing more nothing less.
I know age has nothing to do with prime, but Tyson was still in his prime before he went to prison. He just come in unprepared vs Douglas that doesn't mean he's past his prime, that means he just underestimated his opponent which is a difference.
Tyson after the Douglas fight was very good vs Stewart, Tillman, Ruddock x2. Just because Ruddock gave him some problems doesn't mean Tyson was past his prime, its just as i said Ruddock is a tough SOB the Tyson fights ruined him. Just look at the body shots from Tyson in the 1st Ruddock fight and tell me he looked past his prime.
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Cus trained Patterson that style of training hasn't advanced at all since then its still the same.
Who did Tyson compare himself to most? SONNY LISTON and also Jack Dempsey but usually Sonny. Who learned directly from Liston? George Foreman.
I may also add that Foreman would have made Tyson his bitch.
Good point
The fact foreman came back as an old man and got the heavyweight title back just shows how tough as nails he was in both eras.
Foreman is another hof heavyweight but just because he made frazier his bitch would not be a sure thing with iron mike.
Foreman would beat Tyson because he had a great jab, he had a solid chin, he never fought going backwards, and he was willing and strong enough to move his opponent into range by pushing them and turning them
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
Completely agree with the above statement. Foreman was an artist with the jab. He was before my time but man I love to watch his fights. I saw an interview with him and he said one of the sad things about boxing these days is too many guys don't rely, develops or appreciate the jab. Tyson is the guy non boxing fans talk about frequently. I think anger was always a big part of Tysons fight plan. You guys said it several times prior but if Tyson had been able to keep his head on straight who knows what might have been. Sorry, this was supposed to be about Ali but I get worked up when people talk about Foreman.
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
I am a big fan of both these guys as boxers.
I think Ali's best performance was against Cleveland Williams. Granted, the 'Big Cat' was ever-so-slightly on the slide, but he was a big, fast experienced fighter with chilling power. Ali just toyed with him for a few rounds and then put him away in devastating fashion. That was one of his last fights before he was banned from the ring, so it the best chance we will have of seeing a true peak Ali.
I will disagree with those persons who have picked Spinks as Tyson's best performance. It was pretty damn good but (actually) it was just a blowout. I will, controversially pick his fight with Tyrell Biggs. let's not forget Biggs was an Olympic gold medallist with a great amateur career behind him. We also now hear that Tyson was too small to compete with today's giants, but Biggs was not only a very slick boxer, he was also huge. Tyson outboxed him, outworked him and just beat him up over several hugely punishing rounds.
Your Liston question is really interesting. On paper, Tyson should win. But I wonder. Liston was a real life seriously scary sonuvabitch, deep down I wonder what would have happened when Tyson realised that he was not going to intimidate this big mob-controlled, strike braking, convict.
Who did Tyson fight that would trouble Ali: Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis.
Who did Ali fight who would have troubled Tyson: Young George Forman, prime Larry Holmes (who was a better version of Buster Douglas), Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier (if Joe's slow starts allowed him to get past round 5)
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drama2g
I've been writing a piece lately on Tyson vs Ali. I know it's been discussed so much amongst boxing fans that it's probably more annoying now than fun, but I think I really got something here. I've google searched the topic and not one out of hundreds of posts have taken the angle I'm working. I just need a few opinions here first. If you can spare a minute and answer some of these I would greatly appreciate it. thanks
What do you consider Tyson's best performance in the ring?
What do you consider Ali's best performance in the ring?
Do you think Tyson could have beat Sonny Liston?
Which Tyson opponent do you think would have given Ali the most trouble, or possibly even beat him?
I know there was more I wanted to ask, but of course I'm drawing a blank now.
What do you consider Tyson's best performance in the ring?--KO Holmes
What do you consider Ali's best performance in the ring?-losing to Frazier in first fight
Do you think Tyson could have beat Sonny Liston?--yes
Which Tyson opponent do you think would have given Ali the most trouble, or possibly even beat him?---holmes or holyfield
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Cus trained Patterson that style of training hasn't advanced at all since then its still the same.
Who did Tyson compare himself to most? SONNY LISTON and also Jack Dempsey but usually Sonny. Who learned directly from Liston? George Foreman.
I may also add that Foreman would have made Tyson his bitch.
Good point
The fact foreman came back as an old man and got the heavyweight title back just shows how tough as nails he was in both eras.
Foreman is another hof heavyweight
but just because he made frazier his bitch would not be a sure thing with iron mike.
oh oh oohhhhh!!!!! disagree here. Tyson would bob his way right into one of those HELLISH left uppercuts from Foreman. George Foreman does not lose do you people understand that>???
GEORGE FOREMAN DOES NOT LOSE---HE KNOCKS OUT MARCIANO IN 1 ROUND. I AM SAYING THAT THIS IS COMIOMNG FROM THE BROCKTON BLOCKBUSTER MYSELF.
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
Foreman vs Tyson is another hypothetical that is not cut and dry for me. When did Foreman possess this dynamite jab? What fights did he display it in? Sorry but I’m lost on that one. Foreman was a much more disciplined and technical boxer post Jimmy Young or ten years after his prime and the only two people he faced after Young that were even close to Tyson were Qawi and Axel Shultz and Axel got robbed. In his so-called dominant years he was a flailing clubber who had the overall movement of a tree trunk and was sloth slow. Just because he managed to club down Frazier and Norton does not mean he does that to Tyson. Foreman never encountered anyone remotely close to a prime Tyson. The short hooks from either side, the head movement and overall speed, the feints. Foreman gets a lot of mileage for Frazier and Norton and although it might not sit well with some folks he is one of the most overrated heavyweights of all time imo.
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9l_RrjjTMc
Watch how Foreman uses his hands to steer Frazier away from him. Foreman is out of range to Joe because his arms are so long and he's making Joe waste energy....lots of it. You can see from Foreman's footwork he wasn't just a slow plodding guy, he was just a guy who liked to have his feet firmly planted so he could really sit down on those power punches. Foreman's power was such that he didn't have to land clean, even a partially blocked shot would hurt a fighter.
Yes Mike Tyson probably would have offered more punches, but he would have also wanted to clinch and Foreman wouldn't have allowed that he would have kept Mike at distance.
I think one of the most underrated punches Foreman had in his arsenal was his right hook, yes it was a huge haymaker but he always threw that to the body and it was just a big clubbing, thudding power punch you had to brace your entire body for.
After watching Holyfield manhandle Mike Tyson in their bout I have 0 doubts Foreman whether (Old or Young) would have demolished Tyson....he's just too scary...too tough....too mean. George Foreman is the Boogie Man that haunts Mike Tyson's Boogie Man, he's just a scary SOB in the ring.
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
Sorry I am not literate enough to post links but thebleacherreport.com
Has some excellent articles about the top twenty jabs. Foreman makes everyone list. Granted these lists can be subjective as they always are but I think it is fair to put Foreman on any of these lists.
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
Foreman developed an effective jab after his comeback before that Big George by his own admission was a crude boxer. This is why I feel Tyson’s quick hands, head movement and foot speed would have been able to hurt Big George and ultimately win a hard fought decision similar to what he did with Rudduck.
Re: Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Foreman developed an effective jab after his comeback before that Big George by his own admission was a crude boxer. This is why I feel Tyson’s quick hands, head movement and foot speed would have been able to hurt Big George and ultimately win a hard fought decision similar to what he did with Rudduck.
Agreed. Foremans jab especially prior to being retired by Young and totally outclassed is a myth. It was not all that great when he came back either. Another one of these guys that gets defaulted onto lists almost as a knee jerk reaction. Its akin to saying Roy Jones had a world class jab based on his fight with the Paz.
