Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help

[jahmez]

I hear alot of people say that Tyson was done after Cus died... yet Mike went on to win his first heavyweight title and unite the rest after Cus' death. I also hear alot of people say that prison time killed Tyson's prime yet he lost the biggest upset in history before he went to prison. After his exile from boxing Tyson went on to lose to the two best heavyweights of his era. It took him 21 months after being released from prison to face Holyfield (who was 34 with 3 losses, the most recent being to Bowe a year prior) for the first time which he would go on to lose by TKO. We all know what happened in the second fight. After his exile from boxing Ali took only 8 months to fight Frazier (who was 27 and undefeated) which he would lose by UD. We all know what happened in the rematches and we all know who else Ali went on to beat. I think Ali would have a much harder time against Lewis. He was built for Tyson: incredible chin/ability to take bodypunchers & survive then recover from overall beatings, constant stamina, deep sense of range, historic handspeed. The most important though was the fact that he wouldn't be intimidated. Pre-fight he would have seriously fucked with Mike as well. I see Mike losing it out of, then in the ring. It wouldn't stop at the conferences either, Ali would be talking to him all night during the fight and that underlying sense of doubt would pop up into Mike's mind. To me the guys who beat Tyson did so because they believed they could. At 15 Mike needed Cus to constantly compliment him just to build his confidence while Ali was already proclaiming himself the greatest.

[Vendettos]

Anybody that thinks Tyson had any trouble with Ali is deluded.

Tyson stops Ali inside 5. No problems.

Look at the guys he fought, Liston and Frazier both looked half Tysons weight, plus Tyson hits Ali with body shots allllll night.

10 clean body shots has Ali put in a stretcher.

I'm sorry but nobody would have beaten prime Tyson, not Marciano, not louis, not Johnson and certainly not Ali.

[imp]

Anybody that thinks Tyson had any trouble with Ali is deluded.

Tyson stops Ali inside 5. No problems.

Look at the guys he fought, Liston and Frazier both looked half Tysons weight, plus Tyson hits Ali with body shots allllll night.

10 clean body shots has Ali put in a stretcher.

I'm sorry but nobody would have beaten prime Tyson, not Marciano, not louis, not Johnson and certainly not Ali.

I kind of agree with this but tyson never fought a type of ali opponent and ali never fought a type of tyson opponent (frazier is close but not tysonesque)

I cant really call this fight as ali had a grace around him in the way as he moved round the ring avoiding punches whilst having the speed to land right hand counters it was beautiful.

They both had such different styles but easily the best heavyweights of all time imho or in top 3 easily.

[drama2g]

seriously, thank you guys for some great posts. I might as well spill the beans because I'm running in circles and the actual piece I'm writing will most likely never get finished. But the angle I took is young Tyson beats young Ali (which is open to some debate) and old Ali beats old Tyson (not even a question in my mind about this)

[Mr140]

I think Ali might stop Tyson on cuts to be honest he seem to dice up peoples faces for some reason. As for fighters that give them trouble Foreman and Liston for Tyson they were big powerful and just as fucking mean as he was. As for Ali it have to be Holyfeild who i rate over Tyson think at his best he gives everyone a bad night guy had a heart like no one i have ever seen The other being Lewis who was great boxer and a fucking giant with a huge ass reach and power that be a nightmare for most people.

[JuGGERNAUT666]

Well Tyson was done as far as peak not when cus was out of the pictyure but Rooney...he hired a bunch of idiots and slacked off his training...Watch the Bruno fight immediately after he fires Rooney and he looks awful despite still looking better than any HW at that time...The douglas fight not only showed how tough Tyson was it showed you really have to hit him when hes tired to finish him,Douglas 6'4 240 will hurt you.Tyson never trained remotely maybe 2 weeks for that fight...Ali has no punching power and wouldn't be able to keep Tyson off him...Tyson supreme power in both hands and a left hook from hell which was alis weakness,so do the math here....Also anyone who says Ali had faster hands are watching to many Ali fight clips.Ali did have faster feet but Tyson was a master at cutting off the ring and with his defense and counter punching skills this is almost an un fair fight ...I'll take Tysons 88% K.O ratio with guys 220 vs Alis 30% K.o ratio with guys averaging 210 any day....To end this silly debate Frazier is 1 and 2 against guys over 215..thats 3 fights against legit heavyweights and Frazier gave him hell :rolleyes?

[JuGGERNAUT666]

Tysons best performance was against Holmes..despite his 38 years of age,he showed how easily he was starting to slip jabs and holmes had the best in boxing history he was hard to hit countered perfectly and when larry pissed him off after the 3rd round..Tyson decided to end it in the 4th...Holmes was also never knocked out before that.
Its hard to pin point alis best..tthe liston fights were shady he fought Cleveland Williams 6 months after he was shot and never fully recovered and Foreman really punched himself out and made Ali not rreally work at all knowing foreman would gas out ?Im not going to include Frazier because Ali knew he would win if it went past 12..Fraziers K.o record against 215 plus guys is non existant?I would say Liston the first fight assuming it was real?
Tyson would utterly destroy liston in evry category from skill to chin in what world would Liston win this fight?He was beating guys set up by the mob who weighed 185/190 pounds with bad records...Floyd Patterson was great.....for 185 pounds?Floyd was also down 17 times in his career not to hard to beat for 220 pound liston.Tyson beat bigger guys than liston and beat them easy.
Most top guys Tyson fought would give ali trouble....lets say for argument sake ali beats them all,so what?No one came close to beating prime Tyson 1985/1988...in the end its how he beat them,ali struggled with far less level guys than Tyson did which gives Tyson credibility over Ali.Tyson out of his prime beat 6'3 245 pound Bruno and 6'3 235 pound Ruddock 2 guys that would give ali trouble,especially Ruddock,he had a left hook with more power and range than Fraziers.After those guys Tyson was out/out of his prime and put on to much uneccessary muscle which slowed him down,he became irrelevant by the holyfield fight.

[El Kabong]

The Tyson nuts are back

Ali fought and smashed 4 Tyson-esque fighters: Patterson, Liston, Frazier, and Foreman. Patterson used Tyson's style, Foreman & Liston had Tyson's killer instinct and punching power, and Frazier had Tyson's determination.

Tyson was NEVER unbeatable the perception was there but that ain't the truth.

[tysonesque]

Tyson in his prime is a beast.
Tyson should be in everyones top 3.

Compare small heavyweight fighters from any era like tyson..
Tyson is faster, best head movement ive ever seen and has ko power with thighs the size of an elephant.

And not forgetting at the age of 13-15 this kid was sparking out full grown men.

Tyson is a machine.

Ali is what floyd is today.
Beautiful boxing turned into an art.

The prime, young Tyson was like no other heavyweight I've ever seen and I've no doubt that he would have given Ali plenty of trouble. There is absolutely no way Lewis would have beaten the young Tyson either. Whether he could have actually beaten Ali is a different matter though.

His power and hand speed were insane and for someone who stood right in front of you, right in your face, he was almost impossible to hit. The Reggie Gross defensive performance and KO is absolutely unbelievable! Show me another heavyweight who could do that!

You're right, he's definitely in my top three. It's just a shame that his peak was so short and he went off the rails like he did. Having said that, even when was the unbeaten undisputed champ, anyone who knew anything about Tyson was saying he would self destruct and that's exactly what he did.

I don't think the Spinks fight was his best performance. His most conclusive and devastating given the scale of the fight at the time, but not his best.

It was impressive. But it was still only Reggie Gross

Sure, it's only Reggie Gross, but Tyson was just a kid. It's the only time I've ever seen a fighter force his opponent backwards while defending against a barrage of punches and without throwing a punch of his own. Then he picks his spot and Gross is flat on his back from a perfect left hook.

Peak Tyson was so damn in your face and impossible to hit that he put his opponents on the back foot even when they were winging punches trying to attack him. I have never seen another heavyweight do that.

[Beanflicker]

The Tyson nuts are back

Ali fought and smashed 4 Tyson-esque fighters: Patterson, Liston, Frazier, and Foreman. Patterson used Tyson's style, Foreman & Liston had Tyson's killer instinct and punching power, and Frazier had Tyson's determination.

Tyson was NEVER unbeatable the perception was there but that ain't the truth.

You can't compare Tyson to Patterson, Liston, Frazier and Foreman. To say that any of these guys are "Tyson-esque" is just insane.

Patterson had the similar style and hand speed but that's where the comparison ends.

Frazier was inferior to Tyson in every conceivable way (other than maybe heart).

Liston and Foreman were Tyson-esque? Maybe in the sense that they punched hard, were black and looked scary... that's about where the similarities end.

[Master]

I love the fact that El Kabong is sending Ali, I think he is saying Liston and Foreman were scary and intimidating but Ali was never affected by that.

[El Kabong]

Cus trained Patterson that style of training hasn't advanced at all since then its still the same.

Who did Tyson compare himself to most? SONNY LISTON and also Jack Dempsey but usually Sonny. Who learned directly from Liston? George Foreman.

I may also add that Foreman would have made Tyson his bitch.

[ICB]

Tysons best performance was against Holmes..despite his 38 years of age,he showed how easily he was starting to slip jabs and holmes had the best in boxing history he was hard to hit countered perfectly and when larry pissed him off after the 3rd round..Tyson decided to end it in the 4th...Holmes was also never knocked out before that.
Its hard to pin point alis best..tthe liston fights were shady he fought Cleveland Williams 6 months after he was shot and never fully recovered and Foreman really punched himself out and made Ali not rreally work at all knowing foreman would gas out ?Im not going to include Frazier because Ali knew he would win if it went past 12..Fraziers K.o record against 215 plus guys is non existant?I would say Liston the first fight assuming it was real?
Tyson would utterly destroy liston in evry category from skill to chin in what world would Liston win this fight?He was beating guys set up by the mob who weighed 185/190 pounds with bad records...Floyd Patterson was great.....for 185 pounds?Floyd was also down 17 times in his career not to hard to beat for 220 pound liston.Tyson beat bigger guys than liston and beat them easy.
Most top guys Tyson fought would give ali trouble....lets say for argument sake ali beats them all,so what?No one came close to beating prime Tyson 1985/1988...in the end its how he beat them,ali struggled with far less level guys than Tyson did which gives Tyson credibility over Ali.Tyson out of his prime beat 6'3 245 pound Bruno and 6'3 235 pound Ruddock 2 guys that would give ali trouble,especially Ruddock,he had a left hook with more power and range than Fraziers.After those guys Tyson was out/out of his prime and put on to much uneccessary muscle which slowed him down,he became irrelevant by the holyfield fight.

James Tillis gave a prime Mike Tyson problems, winning 4 rounds out of 10. And was unlucky to get knocked down in the 4th round, a round he was clearly winning because he lunged in stupidly and got caught off balance.

Tillis had some comparison's with Ali the footwork and being able to tie up Tyson, which was one of Tyson's biggest weaknesses. I think that fight pretty much laid the blue print on how to beat Tyson.

Tyson in the Ruddock fight was not out of his prime, i love how people make excuses for Tyson. Because he struggled somewhat in both Ruddock fights, just because he lost to Douglas because he came in unprepared doesn't mean his prime is over forever.

Plenty of fighters have comeback from losses and looked as good as ever, Tyson looked sharp in both Ruddock fights. Its only because Ruddock was as tough as hell that he survived with Tyson because he did have broken ribs and a broken jaw.

[jahmez]

I've heard prime Tyson beats everyone too many times to count - but when exactly was his prime and who did he beat during it? To many "what ifs" and "buts" with Tyson. On the other hand, Ali proved himself time after time. Too many times its hypothetical with Mike: If Cus didn't die, if Mike didn't go to jail, if Mike didn't touch drugs, etc... the fact is these things happened and we know how he reacted. Not taking anything away from him though, he is a legend of the game and boxing personified in the same way as Ali but all this talk of him cutting down Ali with ten clean body punches is ridiculous. How many rounds did Foreman unleash on Ali's wanting body? The fact that he punched himself out is testament to just how much punishment Ali could take not a factor that should be used to quickly discredit his victory. The whole numbers game with the weights does have an impact but it hardly tells the whole story. Have you already forgotten how Manny was annihilating guys like Clottey and Margarito but then got KTFO against a so called blown up featherweight? Mike himself said his whole style was built around ending fights in the early rounds because he had problems with his lungs since he was a kid. I can't see early Ali getting trapped in corners anytime during the early rounds. A later Ali yes but by then he had worked out how to tie up his opponents, disrupt power shots with his hands plus he had developed a high level of underrated strength. Dozens of guys had the upper hand against Ali in regards to power but I can't remember anyone simply out muscling him. Ali would have had his biggest problems against guys like Lewis and the Klits - behemoths where he wouldn't have the distinct height and reach advantage who would cut down the ring due to the sheer length of their strides behind ramrod jabs that would be thrown when he tried to throw his own flickers.

[JuGGERNAUT666]

Tysons best performance was against Holmes..despite his 38 years of age,he showed how easily he was starting to slip jabs and holmes had the best in boxing history he was hard to hit countered perfectly and when larry pissed him off after the 3rd round..Tyson decided to end it in the 4th...Holmes was also never knocked out before that.
Its hard to pin point alis best..tthe liston fights were shady he fought Cleveland Williams 6 months after he was shot and never fully recovered and Foreman really punched himself out and made Ali not rreally work at all knowing foreman would gas out ?Im not going to include Frazier because Ali knew he would win if it went past 12..Fraziers K.o record against 215 plus guys is non existant?I would say Liston the first fight assuming it was real?
Tyson would utterly destroy liston in evry category from skill to chin in what world would Liston win this fight?He was beating guys set up by the mob who weighed 185/190 pounds with bad records...Floyd Patterson was great.....for 185 pounds?Floyd was also down 17 times in his career not to hard to beat for 220 pound liston.Tyson beat bigger guys than liston and beat them easy.
Most top guys Tyson fought would give ali trouble....lets say for argument sake ali beats them all,so what?No one came close to beating prime Tyson 1985/1988...in the end its how he beat them,ali struggled with far less level guys than Tyson did which gives Tyson credibility over Ali.Tyson out of his prime beat 6'3 245 pound Bruno and 6'3 235 pound Ruddock 2 guys that would give ali trouble,especially Ruddock,he had a left hook with more power and range than Fraziers.After those guys Tyson was out/out of his prime and put on to much uneccessary muscle which slowed him down,he became irrelevant by the holyfield fight.

James Tillis gave a prime Mike Tyson problems, winning 4 rounds out of 10. And was unlucky to get knocked down in the 4th round, a round he was clearly winning because he lunged in stupidly and got caught off balance.

Tillis had some comparison's with Ali the footwork and being able to tie up Tyson, which was one of Tyson's biggest weaknesses. I think that fight pretty much laid the blue print on how to beat Tyson.

Tyson in the Ruddock fight was not out of his prime, i love how people make excuses for Tyson. Because he struggled somewhat in both Ruddock fights, just because he lost to Douglas because he came in unprepared doesn't mean his prime is over forever.

Plenty of fighters have comeback from losses and looked as good as ever, Tyson looked sharp in both Ruddock fights. Its only because Ruddock was as tough as hell that he survived with Tyson because he did have broken ribs and a broken jaw.

You don't know what your talking about prime is when your at your peak not age.That pretty much crushes you opinions,they are opinion because the fact is priome is not an age its a time period.Tyson looked sharp in Ruddock fights shows what a prime Tyson was capable of nothing more nothing less.