In a fair fight with an honest referee Golovkin would KO Andre Ward

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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Originally Posted by J_Undisputed

There actually was a rule against under the original MoQ rules but that was left out when the rules for pro boxing were adapted from them. With respect to fighters clinching and using it as a way to smother offense, its a smart tactic to outsmart your opponents who may be blessed with more offensive ability. At the same time, it defeats the whole purpose of people tuning into watch a fight. I would have less issues if you clinched and spun a person and released and then attacked. Conversely I wouldn't have an objection to a Muay Thai like tactics of throwing a person down if they excessively held you.

As for ward on the Headbutts, i don't think any fighter openly admits to using their head but you can tell a fighter that follows through with their head offensively. Unfortunately, the risk is not the same for both fighters. In a fight where brow on brow forehead on forehead or cheekbone on cheekbone contact is made, the risk is the same and Its fairly safe to say that its an accident. For fighters like ward, bradley and holyfield who have been accused of cutting fighters on occasion, there needs to be a distinction made by the referee than lowering your head (Using the top, side, or upper forehead are the striking surface) into an opponent (brows, cheekbone, bride of nose or other areas where the skin is thinner and stretched raised features of the face) will not be tolerated. Either start docking them early if they initiated a butt or simply remove the possibility for them to win on the cards if the fights stopped early due to a cut. It opens the door for their opponents to pull the old "i cant see" routine and get a no contest in a fight they were losing but would keep the accidentally on purpose follow through with their melons...

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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agreed

This is a ridiculous thread. GGG hasn't defeated anyone near the quality of Ward, let alone even fought in Ward's weight class. Seriously, he hasn't even unified the titles at 160 yet. How can anyone with a straight face contend that GGG could beat Ward? I'm a fan of the guy and I can't. Let's see GGG get his defense against Rubio in and then move up in weight for a fight with Junior, Froch or Kessler first. If he beats one or more of them, at least then we can better gauge where he's at. Until then, come on, give it up, especially, when Abel Sanchez has outright said that they're willing to face Froch or Junior but not Ward because the risk isn't worth the reward, indicating at least implicitly that Sanchez views Ward as on a whole different level.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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It goes both ways, right? Same thing for people who only view defensive counter-punching as the sweet science. There's beauty in an artful volume puncher and in a defensive wizard. Great boxing technique is just that: great boxing technique, no matter if it is great offensive or defense.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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I don't think you can say that if you don't like the way ward fights then you must only like face first fighters

I agree tho, people find all sorts of different styles enjoyable

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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I don't think you can say that if you don't like the way ward fights then you must only like face first fighters

I agree tho, people find all sorts of different styles enjoyable

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if i understood him correctly, he thinks as i do. i dont mind as much people not finding certain fighters particularly exciting, but i dont like it when they make a blanket statement and pretty much say that nobody finds their fights enjoyable. i find wards fights enjoyable. i know there are some other people who enjoy watching him fight also. so in reality, he isnt as bad for boxing as some people claim. he has some fans and is a great boxer. again, boxing has a long history of boring fighters that were great. thats just how it works.

its like in college football, you can like how oregon plays since they play fast paced or you can like alabama who slows the game down and uses up the clock. as long as you can see the beauty of each style, thats all that matters.

(sorry about the college football reference to those not from america. im used to talking to people who know a lot about american football).

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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It goes both ways, right? Same thing for people who only view defensive counter-punching as the sweet science. There's beauty in an artful volume puncher and in a defensive wizard. Great boxing technique is just that: great boxing technique, no matter if it is great offensive or defense.

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I can't remember once reading a fan of defensive fighters saying that Arturro Gatti was boring or Mickey ward etcetera. But I read daily that Ward is boring or Mayweather or Bradley etcetera. If someone wants to say "I find Ward to be boring" that would be fine with me. But it's hardly ever put like that. It's Ward is boring. You have to admit the statement is unfair. Why should one group speak for all?

I actually don't like Ward but I've watched the man shadow box probably 50 times. It's compelling the way he goes about it. You can visualize the opponent. The man is in a fight in his head. Not just moving and throwing the right punches but nullifying the shadow opponent. I've learned more watching him shadow box than I learned watching fights of a favorite like Benn.

Ron,
I think most people believe they are speaking for themselves. At least originally when commenting on wards style. A little bit of vented frustration, keyboard bravado and lack of proper phrasing thrown in and one of those blanket statements gets blurted out I dont really think its meant in a way that would destroy for the rest of everyone. I mean after all your word or mine probably wouldn't even be heard by Ward or his biggest supporters or the guys who make the decisions at the networks.

I think the crux of the issue becomes more clear when then evidence turns up that it might be more than a few irritated casual fans (at least outside the board). When people stop watching and ratings drop and there's no demand for tickets outside of oakland... The sentiment becomes more prevalent than just one fan's opinion. Apparently those opinions carry more weight than a one from a guy like me who sits home watching and feinting from his couch and swearing at his tv or any a keyboard warrior. Without these viewership/profit issues, these opinions would just be hollow statements and I believe that's what they are till the bottom line at hbo or showtime is a little light and the gate still has tickets.

While wards style is not my particular brand of vodka, I can't/ won't stop the guy from making a living as a fighter. However, its apparently happening anyway. Promotional issues, network execs turning the lights out on him and rigo and i didnt have to say a word. The tribe has spoken and apparently the only one who can't hear it is ward. He will fight his way, his weight class, his hometown, for the money he wants and not a penny less... and you have to respect him sticking to his guns... but he's not footing the bill for the show and who knows if anyone will show up to see the andre ward show, starring andre ward, directed by andre ward, produced by andre ward... if and when it makes an appearance again.

Its an interesting crossroads between the 3 philosophies on wording an opinion...

Andre ward's: "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm me.."

The fans: "Actions speak louder than words...."

The networks: "Money Talks and Bull$h*t walks..."

When it comes to who's word is Law... and whose voice is the loudest.. opinions may vary.. but cash is king, unfortunately..

I agree. But people going around shouting Ward is boring has an effect on the numbers that a man produces. Casual people tune in to see guys they hear good things about. Boxing regularly shoots itself in the foot this way. Watch the UFC, all company men shouting excitedly about everything and every one. People that don't know what's going on hear this and assume they are seeing something exciting. In boxing most top guys are labeled as boring because they don't get hit much. That means most top guys don't draw because of the prevailing opinion. So boxing sells UK fighters to the UK, Mexican fighters to Mexicans, Puerto Rican fighters to Puerto Ricans etcetera. The skill aspect is lost in sales and skilled fighters are blamed when in fact the entire process is flawed to not sell what is great about the sport, the sweet science. I like a nice brawl as much as the next guy but we shouldn't actively participate in destroying the best of the best in the court of public opinion then blame them for their lack of popularity. Take Rigo, his own promoter actively destroyed his reputation while he rose to prominence. How was he supposed to sell when his promoter, the man responsible for selling his fights, basically told everyone not to watch?

There are 1000 reasons boxing slides further and further into a niche. Not the least of which is boxing fans and boxing announcers distaste for boxing.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I agree. But people going around shouting Ward is boring has an effect on the numbers that a man produces. Casual people tune in to see guys they hear good things about. Boxing regularly shoots itself in the foot this way. Watch the UFC, all company men shouting excitedly about everything and every one. People that don't know what's going on hear this and assume they are seeing something exciting. In boxing most top guys are labeled as boring because they don't get hit much. That means most top guys don't draw because of the prevailing opinion. So boxing sells UK fighters to the UK, Mexican fighters to Mexicans, Puerto Rican fighters to Puerto Ricans etcetera. The skill aspect is lost in sales and skilled fighters are blamed when in fact the entire process is flawed to not sell what is great about the sport, the sweet science. I like a nice brawl as much as the next guy but we shouldn't actively participate in destroying the best of the best in the court of public opinion then blame them for their lack of popularity. Take Rigo, his own promoter actively destroyed his reputation while he rose to prominence. How was he supposed to sell when his promoter, the man responsible for selling his fights, basically told everyone not to watch?

There are 1000 reasons boxing slides further and further into a niche. Not the least of which is boxing fans and boxing announcers distaste for boxing.

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UFC is fuckin shit and the best fights are a lot more boring than the most boring boxing fights

Who wants to watch 2 men lie on the floor for 15 minutes?

Just my opinion obviously

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

This is a ridiculous thread. GGG hasn't defeated anyone near the quality of Ward, let alone even fought in Ward's weight class. Seriously, he hasn't even unified the titles at 160 yet. How can anyone with a straight face contend that GGG could beat Ward? I'm a fan of the guy and I can't. Let's see GGG get his defense against Rubio in and then move up in weight for a fight with Junior, Froch or Kessler first. If he beats one or more of them, at least then we can better gauge where he's at. Until then, come on, give it up, especially, when Abel Sanchez has outright said that they're willing to face Froch or Junior but not Ward because the risk isn't worth the reward, indicating at least implicitly that Sanchez views Ward as on a whole different level.

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Finally! A person with common sense! Love or hate Ward...he is the bigger and more skilled fighter. GGG would NEVER fight Ward at 168. If this fight ever happened, and it's a big IF, they would try to bring Ward down. GGG has not faced anyone even remotely as good as Ward at his own weight class...but he is going to KO one of the top 3 p4p fighters in the game?! People need to stop drinking the cool aid.