Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?
I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.
Which is more powerful which is better?
Heres the push down/ push off 1st method
Redirect Notice
Heres foot twist 1st method
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o
These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.
Not true, it is taught to grind a cigarette out, which takes some downwards pressure but not ALOT. (You mesh your weight down here simply by directing gravity onto one leg or the other leg, so the weights there ready to shift before you twist the foot)
To push off requires ALOT of downwards pressure. (you use your powerful thigh muscles to cause ALOT of downward pressure 1st which is something you dont do with the other method, this is the key difference!)
Also some teach not to twist the foot because they believe power is wasted from the slip between the foot and the ground.
Also its not so subtle I dont see it many instances there is 0 movement in the foot by the pros, sometimes there's a little, sometimes there's alot.
So you are wrong on all accounts.
No, the pivot method also pushes very hard into the ground IF it's done correctly. Edit: Also, with proper technique it's not predominantly the thigh muscles. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the lower body works, otherwise a technical issue and dysfunction in the way your body moves.
The only time you won't see
any pivot at all is when the weight is all the way forward. And that's far from ideal technique, but in the middle of a fight sometimes necessary and when you already have natural power you can get away with it pretty easily.
As scrap has said the hip is very limited in it's ability to rotate past where the foot is pointing. If you have the other guy positioned in that power arc you won't have to pivot very much. Often just a slight raise of the heel is enough. Or you can compromise by leaning. But either way, it's the same technique just with adjustments made. No matter what the push and thus the floor is where the power comes from.
You can punch JUST from twisting the foot, 0 push off.
You can punch just from pushing off 0 twist of the foot.
2 different methods, that can also blur. But you are trying to argue that a punch that comes predominantly from a push off is the exact same thing as a punch that comes predominantly from a foot twist.
Your argument regarding fighters not doing it due to it being mid fight is also inane, because they do it the same way on the mits bag etc when theres no pressure.
Some fighters dont twist the foot and still get good hip rotation so scrap was completely wrong on that one.
hahahahaha
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?
I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.
Which is more powerful which is better?
Heres the push down/ push off 1st method
Redirect Notice
Heres foot twist 1st method
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o
These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.
Not true, it is taught to grind a cigarette out, which takes some downwards pressure but not ALOT. (You mesh your weight down here simply by directing gravity onto one leg or the other leg, so the weights there ready to shift before you twist the foot)
To push off requires ALOT of downwards pressure. (you use your powerful thigh muscles to cause ALOT of downward pressure 1st which is something you dont do with the other method, this is the key difference!)
Also some teach not to twist the foot because they believe power is wasted from the slip between the foot and the ground.
Also its not so subtle I dont see it many instances there is 0 movement in the foot by the pros, sometimes there's a little, sometimes there's alot.
So you are wrong on all accounts.
No, the pivot method also pushes very hard into the ground IF it's done correctly. Edit: Also, with proper technique it's not predominantly the thigh muscles. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the lower body works, otherwise a technical issue and dysfunction in the way your body moves.
The only time you won't see
any pivot at all is when the weight is all the way forward. And that's far from ideal technique, but in the middle of a fight sometimes necessary and when you already have natural power you can get away with it pretty easily.
As scrap has said the hip is very limited in it's ability to rotate past where the foot is pointing. If you have the other guy positioned in that power arc you won't have to pivot very much. Often just a slight raise of the heel is enough. Or you can compromise by leaning. But either way, it's the same technique just with adjustments made. No matter what the push and thus the floor is where the power comes from.
You can punch JUST from twisting the foot, 0 push off.
You can punch just from pushing off 0 twist of the foot.
2 different methods, that can also blur. But you are trying to argue that a punch that comes predominantly from a push off is the exact same thing as a punch that comes predominantly from a foot twist.
Your argument regarding fighters not doing it due to it being mid fight is also inane, because they do it the same way on the mits bag etc when theres no pressure.
Some fighters dont twist the foot and still get good hip rotation so scrap was completely wrong on that one.
hahahahaha
If you punch just by twisting the foot you're doing it wrong. You might not think you're pushing, but you are, and the difference in feel has mostly to do with whether or not the weight is moving, and where it's moving to. Either way power's coming from the same place, and realistically it's actually coming from both feet.
It's already been explained that the hip has range of motion, but not much past where the foot is pointing. So you can throw a left hook and turn your hip all the way if that foot's pointed ahead. Can't do the same for a right straight though, you won't get full range of motion. Keep in mind of course that you don't even need full range of motion to have a ton of power. These are pros we're talking.
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Hopefully this will help. Stand facing a wall, standing straight both hands locked against the wall feet shoulder wide. Now lock the legs tight so they dont move and try moving the hips, Oh dear. ;D
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
Hopefully this will help. Stand facing a wall, standing straight both hands locked against the wall feet shoulder wide. Now lock the legs tight so they dont move and try moving the hips, Oh dear. ;D
Yeah and about the only thing that would get your hips moving from that position is a kick in the nuts (which you'd get in that stance);D
"I should put the brakes on, Im such a heel " ;D
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
Hopefully this will help. Stand facing a wall, standing straight both hands locked against the wall feet shoulder wide. Now lock the legs tight so they dont move and try moving the hips, Oh dear. ;D
Oh yea thats just the same stance as a boxing stance, durrrr
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?
I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.
Which is more powerful which is better?
Heres the push down/ push off 1st method
Redirect Notice
Heres foot twist 1st method
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o
These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.
Not true, it is taught to grind a cigarette out, which takes some downwards pressure but not ALOT. (You mesh your weight down here simply by directing gravity onto one leg or the other leg, so the weights there ready to shift before you twist the foot)
To push off requires ALOT of downwards pressure. (you use your powerful thigh muscles to cause ALOT of downward pressure 1st which is something you dont do with the other method, this is the key difference!)
Also some teach not to twist the foot because they believe power is wasted from the slip between the foot and the ground.
Also its not so subtle I dont see it many instances there is 0 movement in the foot by the pros, sometimes there's a little, sometimes there's alot.
So you are wrong on all accounts.
No, the pivot method also pushes very hard into the ground IF it's done correctly. Edit: Also, with proper technique it's not predominantly the thigh muscles. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the lower body works, otherwise a technical issue and dysfunction in the way your body moves.
The only time you won't see
any pivot at all is when the weight is all the way forward. And that's far from ideal technique, but in the middle of a fight sometimes necessary and when you already have natural power you can get away with it pretty easily.
As scrap has said the hip is very limited in it's ability to rotate past where the foot is pointing. If you have the other guy positioned in that power arc you won't have to pivot very much. Often just a slight raise of the heel is enough. Or you can compromise by leaning. But either way, it's the same technique just with adjustments made. No matter what the push and thus the floor is where the power comes from.
You can punch JUST from twisting the foot, 0 push off.
You can punch just from pushing off 0 twist of the foot.
2 different methods, that can also blur. But you are trying to argue that a punch that comes predominantly from a push off is the exact same thing as a punch that comes predominantly from a foot twist.
Your argument regarding fighters not doing it due to it being mid fight is also inane, because they do it the same way on the mits bag etc when theres no pressure.
Some fighters dont twist the foot and still get good hip rotation so scrap was completely wrong on that one.
hahahahaha
If you punch just by twisting the foot you're doing it wrong. You might not think you're pushing, but you are, and the difference in feel has mostly to do with whether or not the weight is moving, and where it's moving to. Either way power's coming from the same place, and realistically it's actually coming from both feet.
It's already been explained that the hip has range of motion, but not much past where the foot is pointing. So you can throw a left hook and turn your hip all the way if that foot's pointed ahead. Can't do the same for a right straight though, you won't get full range of motion. Keep in mind of course that you don't even need full range of motion to have a ton of power. These are pros we're talking.
I like to argue with trolls sometimes but only if what they come back with sounds logical, if its too weak of an argument I loose interest.
The hip has a range of motion that can go quite far almost full lock out without moving the foot you just dont know how to do it obviously neither does the other guy.
Yawn
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
Hopefully this will help. Stand facing a wall, standing straight both hands locked against the wall feet shoulder wide. Now lock the legs tight so they dont move and try moving the hips, Oh dear. ;D
Oh yea thats just the same stance as a boxing stance, durrrr
It isnt. Scraps analogy in the exercise was to make you think for yourself, the key to thinking about this is from the ground to your hips that hold a key, ankles too.
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?
I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.
Which is more powerful which is better?
Heres the push down/ push off 1st method
Redirect Notice
Heres foot twist 1st method
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o
These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.
Not true, it is taught to grind a cigarette out, which takes some downwards pressure but not ALOT. (You mesh your weight down here simply by directing gravity onto one leg or the other leg, so the weights there ready to shift before you twist the foot)
To push off requires ALOT of downwards pressure. (you use your powerful thigh muscles to cause ALOT of downward pressure 1st which is something you dont do with the other method, this is the key difference!)
Also some teach not to twist the foot because they believe power is wasted from the slip between the foot and the ground.
Also its not so subtle I dont see it many instances there is 0 movement in the foot by the pros, sometimes there's a little, sometimes there's alot.
So you are wrong on all accounts.
No, the pivot method also pushes very hard into the ground IF it's done correctly. Edit: Also, with proper technique it's not predominantly the thigh muscles. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the lower body works, otherwise a technical issue and dysfunction in the way your body moves.
The only time you won't see
any pivot at all is when the weight is all the way forward. And that's far from ideal technique, but in the middle of a fight sometimes necessary and when you already have natural power you can get away with it pretty easily.
As scrap has said the hip is very limited in it's ability to rotate past where the foot is pointing. If you have the other guy positioned in that power arc you won't have to pivot very much. Often just a slight raise of the heel is enough. Or you can compromise by leaning. But either way, it's the same technique just with adjustments made. No matter what the push and thus the floor is where the power comes from.
You can punch JUST from twisting the foot, 0 push off.
You can punch just from pushing off 0 twist of the foot.
2 different methods, that can also blur. But you are trying to argue that a punch that comes predominantly from a push off is the exact same thing as a punch that comes predominantly from a foot twist.
Your argument regarding fighters not doing it due to it being mid fight is also inane, because they do it the same way on the mits bag etc when theres no pressure.
Some fighters dont twist the foot and still get good hip rotation so scrap was completely wrong on that one.
hahahahaha
If you punch just by twisting the foot you're doing it wrong. You might not think you're pushing, but you are, and the difference in feel has mostly to do with whether or not the weight is moving, and where it's moving to. Either way power's coming from the same place, and realistically it's actually coming from both feet.
It's already been explained that the hip has range of motion, but not much past where the foot is pointing. So you can throw a left hook and turn your hip all the way if that foot's pointed ahead. Can't do the same for a right straight though, you won't get full range of motion. Keep in mind of course that you don't even need full range of motion to have a ton of power. These are pros we're talking.
I like to argue with trolls sometimes but only if what they come back with sounds logical, if its too weak of an argument I loose interest.
The hip has a range of motion that can go quite far almost full lock out without moving the foot you just dont know how to do it obviously neither does the other guy.
Yawn
If you can my advice is get to the Dr, you have a serious Hip problem. that could paralyze you ;D.
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OMGWTF
So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?
I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.
Which is more powerful which is better?
Heres the push down/ push off 1st method
Redirect Notice
Heres foot twist 1st method
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o
These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.
Not true, it is taught to grind a cigarette out, which takes some downwards pressure but not ALOT. (You mesh your weight down here simply by directing gravity onto one leg or the other leg, so the weights there ready to shift before you twist the foot)
To push off requires ALOT of downwards pressure. (you use your powerful thigh muscles to cause ALOT of downward pressure 1st which is something you dont do with the other method, this is the key difference!)
Also some teach not to twist the foot because they believe power is wasted from the slip between the foot and the ground.
Also its not so subtle I dont see it many instances there is 0 movement in the foot by the pros, sometimes there's a little, sometimes there's alot.
So you are wrong on all accounts.
No, the pivot method also pushes very hard into the ground IF it's done correctly. Edit: Also, with proper technique it's not predominantly the thigh muscles. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the lower body works, otherwise a technical issue and dysfunction in the way your body moves.
The only time you won't see
any pivot at all is when the weight is all the way forward. And that's far from ideal technique, but in the middle of a fight sometimes necessary and when you already have natural power you can get away with it pretty easily.
As scrap has said the hip is very limited in it's ability to rotate past where the foot is pointing. If you have the other guy positioned in that power arc you won't have to pivot very much. Often just a slight raise of the heel is enough. Or you can compromise by leaning. But either way, it's the same technique just with adjustments made. No matter what the push and thus the floor is where the power comes from.
You can punch JUST from twisting the foot, 0 push off.
You can punch just from pushing off 0 twist of the foot.
2 different methods, that can also blur. But you are trying to argue that a punch that comes predominantly from a push off is the exact same thing as a punch that comes predominantly from a foot twist.
Your argument regarding fighters not doing it due to it being mid fight is also inane, because they do it the same way on the mits bag etc when theres no pressure.
Some fighters dont twist the foot and still get good hip rotation so scrap was completely wrong on that one.
hahahahaha
If you punch just by twisting the foot you're doing it wrong. You might not think you're pushing, but you are, and the difference in feel has mostly to do with whether or not the weight is moving, and where it's moving to. Either way power's coming from the same place, and realistically it's actually coming from both feet.
It's already been explained that the hip has range of motion, but not much past where the foot is pointing. So you can throw a left hook and turn your hip all the way if that foot's pointed ahead. Can't do the same for a right straight though, you won't get full range of motion. Keep in mind of course that you don't even need full range of motion to have a ton of power. These are pros we're talking.
I like to argue with trolls sometimes but only if what they come back with sounds logical, if its too weak of an argument I loose interest.
The hip has a range of motion that can go quite far almost full lock out without moving the foot you just dont know how to do it obviously neither does the other guy.
Yawn
Can you enlighten me with your beginner wisdom?
No but really, in my posts I've already explained that the hip does have range of motion, it just can't go too much past where the foot points unless at least the knee is coming with it. And that's what you aren't seeing, when the hip is rotating past where it should be due to the foot position it's because the knee is coming along to some degree. Remember there is mobility at the ankle too, especially when it's not weighted. There's even some at the knee (not 100% a pure hinge joint) which allows a little extra rotation while leaving the foot behind. And again, these are pros. They don't need full range of motion to hit hard. Understand all that, then remember I've said from the start the pivot is only for range of motion and this should all make more sense.
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Hips have 6 degrees of lateral movement, knees have 3 ankle also has 6. Im sure of that, having long discussions over the years with the guy who invented the protocol for knee surgery.
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Scrap if my basic anatomy is right I believe the hip normally has 40 degrees of external rotation. I'm not sure what 6 degrees of lateral movement exactly means, can you please clarify? I assume we're talking about different measures of hip movement.
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
But if you look at the video clip of sugary Leonard he barely moves,his right heel is planted and he doesn't kick out the left heel much.
the left hook filling the gap with sugar ray leonard masterclass | www.SugarBoxing.com
I'm not trying to be argumentative this is just a discussion:confused:
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
http://www.sugarboxing.com/wp-conten...hook-final.gif
You can very clearly see the heel lift and turn a little, plus the knee moves in. It's subtle, but it's definitely there. Remember you're watching a pro, one of the greats in this case. His movements are gonna be smaller than the ones you learn, his body knows how to move and doesn't need bigger movements to be taught.
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
The push is what actually moves the hips, the pivot gives you range of motion.
What moves us is our environment, in boxing movement comes from the floor our base. Its our job to find the proprioceptive ability to find the balance, to execute movement. That comes from the floor through feel and touch, more touch better feel. What gives you range of motion is the back foot, and thumb.
Why the thumb?
Re: True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
The push is what actually moves the hips, the pivot gives you range of motion.
What moves us is our environment, in boxing movement comes from the floor our base. Its our job to find the proprioceptive ability to find the balance, to execute movement. That comes from the floor through feel and touch, more touch better feel. What gives you range of motion is the back foot, and thumb.
Why the thumb?
It moves the elbow, and stabilizes the tendons in the shoulder.
