Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
Some people think Ali was skilled. He was not. He was fast and, since he fought "big", "slow", "dumb" guys he seemed skilled. This showed when he got slow; even then he got away with it because he was smarter than foreman, etc... Foreman retired and got smarter than the other big dummies he had to fight. watch moorer fight and you'll see and big dumb slow mofo in action.
.
IMO: excellent Analysis.
Ali had so much mouth, his persona transcended the sport. He could've been the worlds greatest used car salesman. Sell you a 1970 Pinto & make you think you drove off the lot with a Cadillac..and swore you stole from the car salesman!
What a shame, Dundee couldn't or wouldn't discipline a young clay. Force him to understand fundamentals. Teach him that there would come a time when youth dissipates like smoke in the wind.
Reflexes wither with father time.
Learn fundamentals, gain skill and don't rely on freak-like reflexes and God given talent-alone.
Serious who else in the history of boxing--won a title without having a single highlight reel of them doing (some) (any) body work?
Ali that's who.
What a shame--in my bold assessment Ray Leonard & Roy Jones followed that same path.
Depending so much on talent, they felt no need to do what Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and yes Bernard Hopkins did: learn the craft & master the art of pugilism.
That is a valid point but they were successful and if it isn't broke do you fix it or leave it alone?
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Probably blasphemy, but I give a slight edge to the heavyweights of the 90's. That is a tough class to beat with Foreman (I feel he was better at this point than during his prime, much smarter), Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Tommy Morrison (not great but very exciting and big puncher), Razor Ruddock (see Morrison but with a better chin), Ray Mercer (inconsistent and lazy at times but great when he was on as in his fights vs. Witherspoon, Evander, Lennox and Morrison), Michael Moorer and Tyson coming back. Guys like Frank Bruno, Bruce Seldon, Bert Cooper, Phil Jackson, Tony Tucker, Herbie Hide and Alex Stewart were solid fighters with good skill.
Tough to beat ATGs like Ali, Frazier and Foreman with guys like Bonavena, Chuvalo, Quarry, Shavers, Patterson, Moore...etc., but I just feel like the guys in the 90s had slightly more depth. Boxing was slightly bigger on a global scale with Thrilla in Manilla, Rumble in the Jungle, Fight of the Century...etc., so I can definitely see a case made for the era of the 70s. Tough call.
I mostly agree with your posts but Old George was not as good as young George. Old George would not have fought him.
I see your point n truthfully go back and forth on it. Young George never loses to Morrison and destroys Moorer much sooner. That being said, if that version of Ali tries the rope a dope, old George paces himself better and wins the decision.
One of my all time dream fights, more than Foreman vs a Tyson or Ali vs Tyson is Evander vs young Foreman. Style match up for that one would phenomenal and I honestly think Evander stops George late in a ridiculous war. Apologize for going off topic...
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
Some people think Ali was skilled. He was not. He was fast and, since he fought "big", "slow", "dumb" guys he seemed skilled. This showed when he got slow; even then he got away with it because he was smarter than foreman, etc... Foreman retired and got smarter than the other big dummies he had to fight. watch moorer fight and you'll see and big dumb slow mofo in action.
.
IMO: excellent Analysis.
Ali had so much mouth, his persona transcended the sport. He could've been the worlds greatest used car salesman. Sell you a 1970 Pinto & make you think you drove off the lot with a Cadillac..and swore you stole from the car salesman!
What a shame, Dundee couldn't or wouldn't discipline a young clay. Force him to understand fundamentals. Teach him that there would come a time when youth dissipates like smoke in the wind.
Reflexes wither with father time.
Learn fundamentals, gain skill and don't rely on freak-like reflexes and God given talent-alone.
Serious who else in the history of boxing--won a title without having a single highlight reel of them doing (some) (any) body work?
Ali that's who.
What a shame--in my bold assessment Ray Leonard & Roy Jones followed that same path.
Depending so much on talent, they felt no need to do what Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and yes Bernard Hopkins did: learn the craft & master the art of pugilism.
That is a valid point but they were successful and if it isn't broke do you fix it or leave it alone?
I feel like all were skilled, but realized that their gifts would be better utilized and they would be harder to defeat if they bent the rules and were unorthodox. Of the three Ray Leonard doesn't really belong, as I feel like he mostly used good fundamentals and only dropped his hands...etc., to make the otherguyopen up for counters. I remembering him fighting well behind the jab and consistently working the body. Ali used the jab very well but didn't go to the body or have the textbook combos like Louis. Again, Ali had solid skills as an amateur but learned that he was more effective dropping his hands and using his speed and reflexes to capitalize on guys who thought they could exploit his style. Roy was just a freak. Great punch and the fastest guy I've ever seen in the ring. There were times when he showed you his fundamentals. Beautiful one-two vs Reggie Johnson. Beautiful jab vs Vinny Paz and Ruiz. Body work vs Tarver (1st fight), Virgil Hill and Eric Harding. Roy just realized early that by fighting unorthodox it would make the other guy open up and make him vulnerable to Roy's counters, which is what he preferred. Those counter shots were spectacular and either scored a visually appealing knockout or made the other guy timid/passive and allowed Roy to do whatever he wanted with them.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
The 60's and 70's had real characters like the big bear Liston who scared the shit out of everybody, He KO'd Floyd Patterson twice in the first round, people literally shit themselves at the mention of his name. (Ali had big balls to take on Liston when he did) Then you had some old fashioned sluggers like Chuvalo, Bonavena and 'Our 'Enry' from Britain who always caused trouble without gaining any glory. The 70's again produced some big hitters with Lyle and Shavers, but it was the big names that were thunderous, Ali, Frazier, Big George, Norton and Holmes. Holmes dominated the early 80's against some reasonable pugs, but the 80's will always remain the era of Tyson.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THE THIRD MAN
The 60's and 70's had real characters like the big bear Liston who scared the shit out of everybody, He KO'd Floyd Patterson twice in the first round, people literally shit themselves at the mention of his name. (Ali had big balls to take on Liston when he did) Then you had some old fashioned sluggers like Chuvalo, Bonavena and 'Our 'Enry' from Britain who always caused trouble without gaining any glory. The 70's again produced some big hitters with Lyle and Shavers, but it was the big names that were thunderous, Ali, Frazier, Big George, Norton and Holmes. Holmes dominated the early 80's against some reasonable pugs, but the 80's will always remain the era of Tyson.
Good summary.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
Some people think Ali was skilled. He was not. He was fast and, since he fought "big", "slow", "dumb" guys he seemed skilled. This showed when he got slow; even then he got away with it because he was smarter than foreman, etc... Foreman retired and got smarter than the other big dummies he had to fight. watch moorer fight and you'll see and big dumb slow mofo in action.
.
IMO: excellent Analysis.
Ali had so much mouth, his persona transcended the sport. He could've been the worlds greatest used car salesman. Sell you a 1970 Pinto & make you think you drove off the lot with a Cadillac..and swore you stole from the car salesman!
What a shame, Dundee couldn't or wouldn't discipline a young clay. Force him to understand fundamentals. Teach him that there would come a time when youth dissipates like smoke in the wind.
Reflexes wither with father time.
Learn fundamentals, gain skill and don't rely on freak-like reflexes and God given talent-alone.
Serious who else in the history of boxing--won a title without having a single highlight reel of them doing (some) (any) body work?
Ali that's who.
What a shame--in my bold assessment Ray Leonard & Roy Jones followed that same path.
Depending so much on talent, they felt no need to do what Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and yes Bernard Hopkins did: learn the craft & master the art of pugilism.
That is a valid point but they were successful and if it isn't broke do you fix it or leave it alone?
I feel like all were skilled, but realized that their gifts would be better utilized and they would be harder to defeat if they bent the rules and were unorthodox. Of the three Ray Leonard doesn't really belong, as I feel like he mostly used good fundamentals and only dropped his hands...etc., to make the otherguyopen up for counters. I remembering him fighting well behind the jab and consistently working the body. Ali used the jab very well but didn't go to the body or have the textbook combos like Louis. Again, Ali had solid skills as an amateur but learned that he was more effective dropping his hands and using his speed and reflexes to capitalize on guys who thought they could exploit his style. Roy was just a freak. Great punch and the fastest guy I've ever seen in the ring. There were times when he showed you his fundamentals. Beautiful one-two vs Reggie Johnson. Beautiful jab vs Vinny Paz and Ruiz. Body work vs Tarver (1st fight), Virgil Hill and Eric Harding. Roy just realized early that by fighting unorthodox it would make the other guy open up and make him vulnerable to Roy's counters, which is what he preferred. Those counter shots were spectacular and either scored a visually appealing knockout or made the other guy timid/passive and allowed Roy to do whatever he wanted with them.
Different perspective. Very solid argument.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Who would Gene Tunney have defeated in the
60s, 70s, 80s,90s & y2k?
The best fighter from each era.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Who would Gene Tunney have defeated in the
60s, 70s, 80s,90s & y2k?
The best fighter from each era.
He was 6 ft and 192lb so he could have taken on Patterson and maybe out boxed the sluggers of the era except Frazier. I do not think he could beat anyone else.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Who would Gene Tunney have defeated in the
60s, 70s, 80s,90s & y2k?
The best fighter from each era.
He was 6 ft and 192lb so he could have taken on Patterson and maybe out boxed the sluggers of the era except Frazier. I do not think he could beat anyone else.
I think that he was by far more talented than either of the K brothers, a much better boxer than any heavy since Joe Louis. The guys that might beat Tunney would do so only due to an extreme size advantage, not because they were better at boxing.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Gene Tunney more skilled than the Klitschko brothers, that's hilarious.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
Some people think Ali was skilled. He was not. He was fast and, since he fought "big", "slow", "dumb" guys he seemed skilled. This showed when he got slow; even then he got away with it because he was smarter than foreman, etc... Foreman retired and got smarter than the other big dummies he had to fight. watch moorer fight and you'll see and big dumb slow mofo in action.
.
IMO: excellent Analysis.
Ali had so much mouth, his persona transcended the sport. He could've been the worlds greatest used car salesman. Sell you a 1970 Pinto & make you think you drove off the lot with a Cadillac..and swore you stole from the car salesman!
What a shame, Dundee couldn't or wouldn't discipline a young clay. Force him to understand fundamentals. Teach him that there would come a time when youth dissipates like smoke in the wind.
Reflexes wither with father time.
Learn fundamentals, gain skill and don't rely on freak-like reflexes and God given talent-alone.
Serious who else in the history of boxing--won a title without having a single highlight reel of them doing (some) (any) body work?
Ali that's who.
What a shame--in my bold assessment Ray Leonard & Roy Jones followed that same path.
Depending so much on talent, they felt no need to do what Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and yes Bernard Hopkins did: learn the craft & master the art of pugilism.
Great post.
I think there is a fine line. For some athletes the teaching could interfere with the natural gifts they are born with. In many ways, the lack of formality is what made them stand out. Its like the talent almost transcends the sport. I think of Barry Sanders, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordon, Roy Jones and Ali as athletes in that genre. Its like they had a third eye. You don't want to stymy that by telling them how to plant their feet using a boxing 101 handbook.
Roy had a dynamite jab but rarely showed it or used it outside the Paz fight. That's just how good he was. And you cant teach those double/triple feints in the gym. Part ways a little with you on Leonard. Out of those mentioned and other gifted fighters I'd say that Ray was one of the best boxers fundamentally including Robinson. Or lets say he was the one that applied boxing fundamentals the most.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Gene Tunney more skilled than the Klitschko brothers, that's hilarious.
Why? He moved better, was better defensively. He was noted for having a great jab (Liston's jab was compared to Tunney's), a very hard right hand, for being a very good body puncher, for fighting well inside, and he fought a much much higher level of competition.
The K Bros are tall, jab well, straight right hand, and are tall.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Gene Tunney more skilled than the Klitschko brothers, that's hilarious.
You really have a blind spot for old time fighters. Have you seen Gene boxer?
From the first round to the last he fought at a good pace. He was very skilled boxer. The guy had a ton of heart to get through Grebb beating. Tunney retired rich and famous what more could you ask for in a heavyweight champion.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
OH come on now Tunney is a great fighter ahead of his time but for fuck sack one jab for Wlad and its over pretty fucking much. The hw division is not like others there no limit to it and fuckers have gotten bigger since the 1920's. Reason i have respect for Holyfeild he actually moved up and beat monsters. I mean dont get me wrong Tunney is a great fighter but i rank him more as a lhw then a hw today think he be ok at lhw but put him in with skilled big guy who out weighs him 50 to 60 pounds the guy is kinda fucked pretty much dude.
Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?
"1968"
Joe Frazier
Jimmy Ellis
Oscar Bonavena
Sonny Liston
Jerry Quarry
Floyd Patterson
Leotis Martin
Thad Spencer
Buster Mathis
Manuel Ramos
Karl Mildenberger
Henry Cooper
Gregorio Peralta
Al Jones
Eduardo Corletti
Al 'Blue' Lewis
George Chuvalo
Robert Cleroux
Dave Zyglewicz
Mac Foster
Luis Pires
Cleveland Williams
Zora Folley
Tony Doyle
Jack Bodell
C'mon Man
