What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

[greynotsoold]

An era with big HWs will be an era with less skill. "Big" and "dumb" go together. This is why LHWs and even middles like Walker, Greb and Conn think they can win the title. And "slow." Can't forget "slow."

Some people think Ali was skilled. He was not. He was fast and, since he fought "big", "slow", "dumb" guys he seemed skilled. This showed when he got slow; even then he got away with it because he was smarter than foreman, etc... Foreman retired and got smarter than the other big dummies he had to fight. watch moorer fight and you'll see and big dumb slow mofo in action.

An era with the most talented HWs, in terms of boxing skill? There was a time when ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, Archie moore all fought there and that is three very skilled men.

[SlimTrae]

Some people think Ali was skilled. He was not. He was fast and, since he fought "big", "slow", "dumb" guys he seemed skilled. This showed when he got slow; even then he got away with it because he was smarter than foreman, etc... Foreman retired and got smarter than the other big dummies he had to fight. watch moorer fight and you'll see and big dumb slow mofo in action.

.

IMO: excellent Analysis.

Ali had so much mouth, his persona transcended the sport. He could've been the worlds greatest used car salesman. Sell you a 1970 Pinto & make you think you drove off the lot with a Cadillac..and swore you stole from the car salesman!

What a shame, Dundee couldn't or wouldn't discipline a young clay. Force him to understand fundamentals. Teach him that there would come a time when youth dissipates like smoke in the wind.
Reflexes wither with father time.

Learn fundamentals, gain skill and don't rely on freak-like reflexes and God given talent-alone.

Serious who else in the history of boxing--won a title without having a single highlight reel of them doing (some) (any) body work?

Ali that's who.

What a shame--in my bold assessment Ray Leonard & Roy Jones followed that same path.

Depending so much on talent, they felt no need to do what Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and yes Bernard Hopkins did: learn the craft & master the art of pugilism.

[Master]

Some people think Ali was skilled. He was not. He was fast and, since he fought "big", "slow", "dumb" guys he seemed skilled. This showed when he got slow; even then he got away with it because he was smarter than foreman, etc... Foreman retired and got smarter than the other big dummies he had to fight. watch moorer fight and you'll see and big dumb slow mofo in action.

.

IMO: excellent Analysis.

Ali had so much mouth, his persona transcended the sport. He could've been the worlds greatest used car salesman. Sell you a 1970 Pinto & make you think you drove off the lot with a Cadillac..and swore you stole from the car salesman!

What a shame, Dundee couldn't or wouldn't discipline a young clay. Force him to understand fundamentals. Teach him that there would come a time when youth dissipates like smoke in the wind.
Reflexes wither with father time.

Learn fundamentals, gain skill and don't rely on freak-like reflexes and God given talent-alone.

Serious who else in the history of boxing--won a title without having a single highlight reel of them doing (some) (any) body work?

Ali that's who.

What a shame--in my bold assessment Ray Leonard & Roy Jones followed that same path.

Depending so much on talent, they felt no need to do what Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and yes Bernard Hopkins did: learn the craft & master the art of pugilism.

That is a valid point but they were successful and if it isn't broke do you fix it or leave it alone?

[mikeeod]

Some people think Ali was skilled. He was not. He was fast and, since he fought "big", "slow", "dumb" guys he seemed skilled. This showed when he got slow; even then he got away with it because he was smarter than foreman, etc... Foreman retired and got smarter than the other big dummies he had to fight. watch moorer fight and you'll see and big dumb slow mofo in action.

.

IMO: excellent Analysis.

Ali had so much mouth, his persona transcended the sport. He could've been the worlds greatest used car salesman. Sell you a 1970 Pinto & make you think you drove off the lot with a Cadillac..and swore you stole from the car salesman!

What a shame, Dundee couldn't or wouldn't discipline a young clay. Force him to understand fundamentals. Teach him that there would come a time when youth dissipates like smoke in the wind.
Reflexes wither with father time.

Learn fundamentals, gain skill and don't rely on freak-like reflexes and God given talent-alone.

Serious who else in the history of boxing--won a title without having a single highlight reel of them doing (some) (any) body work?

Ali that's who.

What a shame--in my bold assessment Ray Leonard & Roy Jones followed that same path.

Depending so much on talent, they felt no need to do what Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and yes Bernard Hopkins did: learn the craft & master the art of pugilism.

That is a valid point but they were successful and if it isn't broke do you fix it or leave it alone?

I feel like all were skilled, but realized that their gifts would be better utilized and they would be harder to defeat if they bent the rules and were unorthodox. Of the three Ray Leonard doesn't really belong, as I feel like he mostly used good fundamentals and only dropped his hands...etc., to make the otherguyopen up for counters. I remembering him fighting well behind the jab and consistently working the body. Ali used the jab very well but didn't go to the body or have the textbook combos like Louis. Again, Ali had solid skills as an amateur but learned that he was more effective dropping his hands and using his speed and reflexes to capitalize on guys who thought they could exploit his style. Roy was just a freak. Great punch and the fastest guy I've ever seen in the ring. There were times when he showed you his fundamentals. Beautiful one-two vs Reggie Johnson. Beautiful jab vs Vinny Paz and Ruiz. Body work vs Tarver (1st fight), Virgil Hill and Eric Harding. Roy just realized early that by fighting unorthodox it would make the other guy open up and make him vulnerable to Roy's counters, which is what he preferred. Those counter shots were spectacular and either scored a visually appealing knockout or made the other guy timid/passive and allowed Roy to do whatever he wanted with them.

[SlimTrae]

Some people think Ali was skilled. He was not. He was fast and, since he fought "big", "slow", "dumb" guys he seemed skilled. This showed when he got slow; even then he got away with it because he was smarter than foreman, etc... Foreman retired and got smarter than the other big dummies he had to fight. watch moorer fight and you'll see and big dumb slow mofo in action.

.

IMO: excellent Analysis.

Ali had so much mouth, his persona transcended the sport. He could've been the worlds greatest used car salesman. Sell you a 1970 Pinto & make you think you drove off the lot with a Cadillac..and swore you stole from the car salesman!

What a shame, Dundee couldn't or wouldn't discipline a young clay. Force him to understand fundamentals. Teach him that there would come a time when youth dissipates like smoke in the wind.
Reflexes wither with father time.

Learn fundamentals, gain skill and don't rely on freak-like reflexes and God given talent-alone.

Serious who else in the history of boxing--won a title without having a single highlight reel of them doing (some) (any) body work?

Ali that's who.

What a shame--in my bold assessment Ray Leonard & Roy Jones followed that same path.

Depending so much on talent, they felt no need to do what Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and yes Bernard Hopkins did: learn the craft & master the art of pugilism.

That is a valid point but they were successful and if it isn't broke do you fix it or leave it alone?

I feel like all were skilled, but realized that their gifts would be better utilized and they would be harder to defeat if they bent the rules and were unorthodox. Of the three Ray Leonard doesn't really belong, as I feel like he mostly used good fundamentals and only dropped his hands...etc., to make the otherguyopen up for counters. I remembering him fighting well behind the jab and consistently working the body. Ali used the jab very well but didn't go to the body or have the textbook combos like Louis. Again, Ali had solid skills as an amateur but learned that he was more effective dropping his hands and using his speed and reflexes to capitalize on guys who thought they could exploit his style. Roy was just a freak. Great punch and the fastest guy I've ever seen in the ring. There were times when he showed you his fundamentals. Beautiful one-two vs Reggie Johnson. Beautiful jab vs Vinny Paz and Ruiz. Body work vs Tarver (1st fight), Virgil Hill and Eric Harding. Roy just realized early that by fighting unorthodox it would make the other guy open up and make him vulnerable to Roy's counters, which is what he preferred. Those counter shots were spectacular and either scored a visually appealing knockout or made the other guy timid/passive and allowed Roy to do whatever he wanted with them.

Different perspective. Very solid argument.

[SlimTrae]

Who would Gene Tunney have defeated in the
60s, 70s, 80s,90s & y2k?
The best fighter from each era.

[Master]

Who would Gene Tunney have defeated in the
60s, 70s, 80s,90s & y2k?
The best fighter from each era.

He was 6 ft and 192lb so he could have taken on Patterson and maybe out boxed the sluggers of the era except Frazier. I do not think he could beat anyone else.

[IamInuit]

Some people think Ali was skilled. He was not. He was fast and, since he fought "big", "slow", "dumb" guys he seemed skilled. This showed when he got slow; even then he got away with it because he was smarter than foreman, etc... Foreman retired and got smarter than the other big dummies he had to fight. watch moorer fight and you'll see and big dumb slow mofo in action.

.

IMO: excellent Analysis.

Ali had so much mouth, his persona transcended the sport. He could've been the worlds greatest used car salesman. Sell you a 1970 Pinto & make you think you drove off the lot with a Cadillac..and swore you stole from the car salesman!

What a shame, Dundee couldn't or wouldn't discipline a young clay. Force him to understand fundamentals. Teach him that there would come a time when youth dissipates like smoke in the wind.
Reflexes wither with father time.

Learn fundamentals, gain skill and don't rely on freak-like reflexes and God given talent-alone.

Serious who else in the history of boxing--won a title without having a single highlight reel of them doing (some) (any) body work?

Ali that's who.

What a shame--in my bold assessment Ray Leonard & Roy Jones followed that same path.

Depending so much on talent, they felt no need to do what Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and yes Bernard Hopkins did: learn the craft & master the art of pugilism.

Great post.

I think there is a fine line. For some athletes the teaching could interfere with the natural gifts they are born with. In many ways, the lack of formality is what made them stand out. Its like the talent almost transcends the sport. I think of Barry Sanders, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordon, Roy Jones and Ali as athletes in that genre. Its like they had a third eye. You don't want to stymy that by telling them how to plant their feet using a boxing 101 handbook.

Roy had a dynamite jab but rarely showed it or used it outside the Paz fight. That's just how good he was. And you cant teach those double/triple feints in the gym. Part ways a little with you on Leonard. Out of those mentioned and other gifted fighters I'd say that Ray was one of the best boxers fundamentally including Robinson. Or lets say he was the one that applied boxing fundamentals the most.