What did you think of Warren's offer to Hopkins to name the city date and weight of the fight? If that is as transparent as it sounds I'll eat my shoe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daxx Kahn
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What did you think of Warren's offer to Hopkins to name the city date and weight of the fight? If that is as transparent as it sounds I'll eat my shoe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daxx Kahn
Quote:
Originally Posted by superheavyrhun
Well then get ready for filet' of sole.......
Why do people rate Collins so highly? He was a limited fighter who beat a shot Benn. Jones, Calzaghe, Toney, McClellan, Kessler all destroy him. I wouldn't be surprise if Manfredo gave him a run for his money. Collins was a mediocre fighter. Nothing more
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You have alot of posts on this site but that dont mean you know S***!!
Collins took the belt off Eubank defended it and beat Benn twice.
he can only beat the guys who were in front of him. He called out Jones but he wanted none of Collins and that is a fact.
also Violent Demise you think Calzaghe would have knocked out collins when they fought(idiot). HHmmm let me see. Benn couldnt when they fought and he was younger than collins, Eubank, Sumbu kalambay couldnt, Mike Mccullum couldnt infact nobody did and Joe is not a hard hitter.
You would have got great odds for that back in the day.
He retired after a doctors advice plus after a scan from the eastman spar. also lack of motivation.
Who did Roy Jones beat ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
James Toney 44-0 who was p4p 2 or 1 at that time i believe.
Virgil Hill
Bernard Hopkins
Montel Griffin
Reggie Johnson
Eric Harding
John Ruiz
Mike Mccallum old yes but still good.
Merqui Sosa
Vinny Pazienza
Thats 4 Hall Of Famers there need i go on ??
The main point of the discussion, IWHO, should be that Calzaghe has done more than Jones did @ 168lbs.
Roy made his statement @ 175lbs.
Toney was great & all that...but not @ 168lbs...the same can be said for Hopkins & fighters of the sort.
Yes Roy is great...Yes I'm a huge fan of Roy's...but facts being what they are...Calzaghe is the better & more dominant fighter @ 168lbs.
Yea but Bernard was dominate at MW not SMW and they were both pretty green. Toney was weight drained at that weight not that it is a excuse but he was better at other weights. Over all at 168 Calzaghe has beat better guys over all and been dominate for 10 years so that to ne makes him number 1 on the list at 168. As far as them fighting who knows i give joe a shot to win does not seem out of the question thats all. I was saying no need to bring names i know who Roy beat and what stage they were when they beaten and what weight class they were at i know.
Yea but Bernard was dominate at MW not SMW and they were both pretty green. Toney was weight drained at that weight not that it is a excuse but he was better at other weights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Jones was more green than Hopkins having less fights Hopkins was still good fighter at that time.
Toney has always had trouble with weight and he was pretty darn good at Supermiddleweight he did dominate Iran Barkley in an excellent performance and also sparked out Prince Charles Williams all at Supermiddleweight Toney was P4P top 3 when Jones beat him fact.
Over all at 168 Calzaghe has beat better guys over all and been dominate for 10 years so that to ne makes him number 1 on the list at 168.
No one is denying that but you were questioning who Jones beat and i can assure you Jones has beat much better fighters plus Jones was only Supermiddleweight for almost 2 years and his win over Toney is better than any of Calzaghe's victories at 168.
Hey give Kessler sometime he might achieve the level of tony i do not see any one but cal beating him.
No he won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Toney has beaten.
Mike McCallum x2
Doug DeWitt
Michael Nunn
Reggie Johnson
Iran Barkley
Prince Charles Williams
Vassiliy Jirov
Evander Holyfield
And has won World titles at.
Middleweight
Supermiddleweight
Cruiserweight
And would of won Heavyweight.
Fighters like Toney don't come around often no way Kessler will achieve anywhere near what Toney has achieved.
I agree but his win against holyfeild when he beat him is not very impressive. Everything else you said makes since even though half of those titles Wbu and IBO not really belts in alot peoples views.
Other than Jones,JC gives most of the rest a battering.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Totally disagree.
Prime Toney was excellent fighter and would beat Calzaghe imo he has excellent defense and great technical skills.
Gerald has good straight right hand the kind of punch Calzaghe gets caught often with and Gerald is a hell of a puncher and has granite chin and starts in a hurry he could take Calzaghe early but it goes two ways Gerald early or Joe late.
Collins would rough up Calzaghe and Collins has excellent chin but i think Calzaghe would beat Collins by clear cut UD.
Benn in his prime is handful for anyone he could spark Calzaghe at anytime but i think Calzaghe stops Benn late on.
Sorry Ice, but at this point I think James Toney has discredited his own dubious legacy with his repeated steroid abuse, and we have only found out about it the times he has been caught. I don't care if he was Muhammad Ali, if he was caught using drugs later in his career where drugs testing has developed, how do we know he didn't use it throughout his career. Someone who has such a liberal attitude towards cheating should certainly not be counted amongst the greats of the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
And more, I don't think that the names that you put forward are that much more impressive than Kessler's resume. Doug DeWitt was on a downturn in his career when Toney finished it. Charles Williams was 42. Holyfield was 40, and most of those had taken beatings from other before. Good of you to edit your list as well, to improve accuracy.
I don't like Toney, I admit it, and his constant drug abuse doesn't endear him to me either, but I don't see any reason why Kessler can't win two-weight titles, although I doubt he'd let himself get fat and just fight in cruiserweight and heavyweight divisions. Toney didn't win titles there because he wanted to, he was a fantastic boxer who was too lazy to make the weight.
James Toney was a fantastic latent talent who REALLY could fight. Unfortunately, he is lazy and is not a committed or dedicated talent. Who knows how good he might really have been, but to extrapolate maybe's and what if's is not fair. At the end of the day, the professional, dedicated ultra-pro that is Calzaghe would have beaten lazy James up. At any weight.
"If you take two fighters with equal skills and equal training, then the fighter with greater will, with greater desire, will inevitably win" (Cus D'Amato).
That's why Calzaghe would beat Toney - not because he's a better fighter, not because he is a harder puncher, not because he is better defensively ...... but because he would enter the ring in peak condition (and we all know that Joe has pulled out of fights claiming injuries etc and we have criticised him for it. But..... Joe Calzaghe has never entered a boxing ring underprepared in his life) James is lazy, he lets his weight go, he looks for short cuts with steroids, he lays on the ropes. I quite like him for it because he's a throwback to the 18th centure bareknuckle fighters, but it counts aginast him as a professional athlete in the 21st Century.
Equally, we see great revisionism with poor Gerald McClellan. The guy was good, he had a good punch and a good media image. But, we should not forget that his best victories were aginst the ghosts of washed up Mugabi and Jackson. He moved up a weight, hyped beyond belief and was badly hurt. He couldn't keep Benn down, and we know Benn was vulnerable.
That is all. End if drunken rant.
Oh lord....
Sorry to jump in here late but i just feel like dropping a few opinions here.
Nigel Benn....has himself admitted he feels Calzaghe was better than he, Eubank or Collins.
Steve Collins.....I'm Irish an still i can see that Collins was a technically poor fighter who would have eaten everything Joe threw.
Gerald McClellan....One of my favourite fighters...Unfortunately he's one of the sports eternal enigmas like Salvador Sanchez, how far he could have gone we'll never no, but on what i saw Joe SD
James Toney...A marvellous fighter, but he relied on getting in close against Taller fighters. Joe is a master at preventing this and for me Joe grinds out a SD again.
Roy Jones.... Prime for prime I don't feel the need to comment on this. But a slightly faded Roy would have been beaten that shows how highly i think of Joe
For me Joe also beats the Super Middle versions of Tommy Hearns and Ray Leonard who met for the controversial draw fight...Joe was too complex for these fighters at that time.
:coolclick: in another 24. Very well stated. :appl:Quote:
Originally Posted by superheavyrhun
MCCELLANS SUPERMIDDLE RECORD 1 fight 1 lossQuote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
he would ave battered toney. toney was fat and unproffessional
as for eubank and collins. collins was a good middleweight who beat eubank who was boxing every 6-8 weeks. calzaghe would have beaten a peak eubank. a inexperienced calzaghe beat him so a peak calzaghe would destroy. and as for jones. overated.
Part I agree,part I disagreeQuote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Toney's a total enigma,A)He's too lazy to stay at a proper weight for his size,B)Every time you think he's put it together he comes up dirty on the pi$$ test
Leanord and Hearns would have flat out torched him
Sugar,because its the same stock and trade,but Ray was just better at it,and a better counter puncher
Hearns,just because of sheer punching power
Joe is a great worker out there,great at it,but nobody is losing any sleep over his power
:sadclick: for you. In fact...everytime I read this it's another one for you. Totally biased head case. I think "nutter" is what me bwoyo's call that?Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
Over rated is such a shakey term to use...but :coolclick: for everything in the post outside of calling Jones over rated.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEANIE
IWHO, you can't over rate what Jones accomplished overall...especially at 175lbs.
jones never boxed michazeski. he won titles that michazeski gave up.Quote:
Originally Posted by wacko3205
Thats because Dariusz Michalczewski only wanted to fight Jones in Germany he didn't want to come to USA its his own fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEANIE
PLease though,give Joe his credit,we all know my opinion of the decision,but Joe did everything he needed to do to win,and Kessler didnt.
Well now he's beat hopkins what do you think ok not the greatest boxing displays but a win none the less. I think joe could have beat any of these boxers in there prime or not, OK when you talk about jones in his prime it's close but i think jones was flawed and fighting against great fighters like joe in there primes (IRRELATIVE OF TIME) was jones to wild and unschooled or was joe to suseptible to the right hand. what ever it was joe oftered jones out when he had his belts but jones denied later some years on jones admitted to the press when joe asked for that fight ( I HAD TO MUCH TO LOOSE AND HE HAD TO MUCH TO GAIN) If thhats not ducking i dont know what is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
I dont think he would beat a peak Chris Eubank
I gotta disagree I feel the only one who would have given him a big problem is Roy Jones, Toney not so much a devastating counter-puncher absolutely but I would feel Joe would do exactly what he did to B-Hop a high workrate and good in and out movement. You do have to take into consideration that the Joe Calzaghe we are seeing now is older,I feel the prime Calzaghe came when he fought Lacy and on that night he could have beaten any fighter in the supermiddleweight division past or present.
For whatever reason..no one has come along yet to prove he isn't. Saying an undeafeted champ of over 10 years isn't that good is kinda crazy. Some may not like him, his style, who he has or hasn't fought, but if he isn't good sitting where he sits in the sport and in life then i hate to hear what you think of all the people sitting below him, and those he's beaten. I don't necessarily like the guy and think he has almost no chance of beating pavlik but the guy could get his head completly knocked off and that doesn't take away from what he's managed to do.
Here is what I think, but I am not sure. Toney and Jones would have handled him, especially Jones. McClellan I think he beats but I am not sure as Gerald was a devastating puncher with speed and could spark anyone out in any fight, including Jones.
Calzaghe to me is a good top champion, but has not proved himself against other true elite fighters in their prime. He is definitely solid all around and he might close the show with Pavlik which could elevate him even more. Even beating Jones now, would be good for him even though Jones is faded. He is definitely in my eyes, the most established Super Middle of all time. He will always be able to carry that title.
Many will say Kessler was elite and prime, but I will argue that point till I am blue in the face. Kessler had loads of potential and still does, but Kessler has never beaten a grade A or A- fighter period. He looked devastating against grade b- and c competition but was never prepared for grade A stuff like Joe. They got him back doing the same thing again. Palle deserves a punch in the f*cking mouth for what he is doing. Kessler never got a chance to be truly tested in a fight where he had to dig deep and because of that he never learned how. Palle always made it easy for him and when he got his big chance, he did not know how to cope, refused to take any chances in the fight and stuck to a game plan that was not working.
the only way calzaghe ever beats ROY JONES, JAMES TONEY, THE G-MAN AND NIGEL BENN IS IF THERE ALL PASTED THERE BEST.............HE GOT THE NOD VS A 43 YEAR OLD HOPKINS AND HAD A TOUGH TIME WITH A SHOT, COME OUT OF RETIREMENT WITH JUST 6 DAYS NOTICE EUBANKS..........HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEAT THOSE TWO IN THERE PRIMES AND COULDN'T BEAT THE OTHERS
Imo, he's that good. I think he accomplished enough. But! I can't consider him as one of ATGs yet til he beats Pavlik or even RJJr.
JC could beat Jones,Pavlik and another good fighter and peeps wouldn't credit him. Just because he doesn't hit hard,doesn't make him a bad fighter. He's beaten undefeated fighters,legends,champs,unified titles,moved up,beaten the next division champ and kept his 0. I'd like to see him beat Jones(which he will do at this stage:prime Jones whoops him) and Kelly(too fast and too many angles for Pav,who is to slow to catch Joe) and then see what people think.