So who's the next "great American hope" in boxing?

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

And I'll accept my obvious lack of common sense as well.

Thanks.

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Fixed it for you. ;)

(Note to self: Remember to ask Saddo about his declining standards for choosing his forum mods.)

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And i'll ask Saddo to check out your post history to see the amount of people you argue with and insult on this board.

Please don't ruin yet another thread.

Thanks.

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Go ahead. Maybe you'll even get him to ban me.


Fact is..... you're an abrasive, cyber-abusive twerp who hardly gets along with anybody yourself. @Violent Demise and I have only one thing in common in life. We both dislike your arrogant ass. We dislike each other also, but that's another story.

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Speak for your fucking self. We have nothing in common. I disagree with Fenster. About half the time. Doesn't mean I dislike him (he's 3/12 too). It just means I don't agree with half the shit he says. There's a diffrence.

The fact that you don't like me doesn't mean I dislike you. It don't work that way. I don't acknowledge you enough to give a fuck about you. So how am I going to dislike you? You wanna take the effort to like and hate certain posters on a "online forum", go right ahead

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

While it's "not necessary for the USA to provide a new boxing superstar for the sport to thrive internationally".... it is necessary in order to raise the popularity of boxing in the US, which is a major player in the global boxing world. Not to mention the country with the biggest financial power in the boxing world. But you and Fenster probably need for someone other than myself to say that..... so I'll invite some of the other posters, such as Lyle, who you probably believe more than myself, to say the same thing.

I never claimed Sugar Ray Leonard was a "typical character". I said Sugar Ray Leonard was a household name back in the day when boxers didn't need to have the "bad boy" image to attract fans. But again, please don't take my word for it. Ask someone else you DO believe.

And yes.... Floyd's flashy character is a model for wannabes who want to emulate him in and out of the ring. Ergo your Broners, your Judahs, etc, etc. It's what sells nowadays.

I stick to my original point. When will the next American superstar arrive that will lift boxing in the U.S.? Americans are hungry for such a person. Floyd sells a lot of PPV.... but fans would embrace another Sugar Ray Leonard just as much, if not more.

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Why is every thing a confrontation with you ? I am quite aware what a household name Leonard was and don't need to take anyone's word for it?:confused: The fact is you probably will not get another SRL because those days are gone. SRL along with many boxers of his generation had far less competition for the publics attention and boxing itself will never hold that type of grip on the publics imagination again. The saviour you hope for would find a largely apathetic audience more interested in team sports, videogames and reality TV stars than following his career trajectory, coupled with opponents eager to avoid him and sanctioning bodies and Tv companies doing their darndest to prevent him from unifying and taking on all comers.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

And I'll accept my obvious lack of common sense as well.

Thanks.

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Fixed it for you. ;)

(Note to self: Remember to ask Saddo about his declining standards for choosing his forum mods.)

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And i'll ask Saddo to check out your post history to see the amount of people you argue with and insult on this board.

Please don't ruin yet another thread.

Thanks.

---

Go ahead. Maybe you'll even get him to ban me.


Fact is..... you're an abrasive, cyber-abusive twerp who hardly gets along with anybody yourself. @Violent Demise and I have only one thing in common in life. We both dislike your arrogant ass. We dislike each other also, but that's another story.


And if we're going to count the people that "argue with" and "insult" other people on this board..... start by looking in the mirror. Then I suggest you have a calculator handy, because I doubt you can count that high.

Stop trolling my threads. You dislike me because I ridicule your obsession with the likes of Princess Naseem.... and probably because you don't like opinionated non-British characters. That's YOUR problem.

Every time you come into one of my topics intending to ridicule me with your cute "one-liners"..... I'll respond in kind and expose you for the ignorant, condescending asshole you really are.

:fyou:

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@TitoFan man you are the most offensive weaner on the whole forum by a country mile.
You are also Racist
Homophobic
and condascending to the nnth degree


Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

And I'll accept my obvious lack of common sense as well.

Thanks.

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Fixed it for you. ;)

(Note to self: Remember to ask Saddo about his declining standards for choosing his forum mods.)

---

And i'll ask Saddo to check out your post history to see the amount of people you argue with and insult on this board.

Please don't ruin yet another thread.

Thanks.

---

Go ahead. Maybe you'll even get him to ban me.


Fact is..... you're an abrasive, cyber-abusive twerp who hardly gets along with anybody yourself. @Violent Demise and I have only one thing in common in life. We both dislike your arrogant ass. We dislike each other also, but that's another story.


And if we're going to count the people that "argue with" and "insult" other people on this board..... start by looking in the mirror. Then I suggest you have a calculator handy, because I doubt you can count that high.

Stop trolling my threads. You dislike me because I ridicule your obsession with the likes of Princess Naseem.... and probably because you don't like opinionated non-British characters. That's YOUR problem.

Every time you come into one of my topics intending to ridicule me with your cute "one-liners"..... I'll respond in kind and expose you for the ignorant, condescending asshole you really are.

:fyou:

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@TitoFan man you are the most offensive weaner on the whole forum by a country mile.
You are also Racist
Homophobic
and condascending to the nnth degree


Hope this helps.

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And you have your head up so far Fenster's ass, you need 4 feet of hose just so you can breathe. And if you're going to throw around accusations, asshole, I expect you to back them up. Show me one fucking post where I've demonstrated to be homophobic. ONE. Racist? You don't know the meaning of the word.

But condescending? Absolutely. That's the only way I bother to address an insignificant twerp such as yourself.

BTW, I have very little respect for someone who shamelessly asks for help and support from other posters by using the "mentions". But since you can't carry an argument by yourself, you have to "tag" your little friends (or friend, in this case), to help you throw insults at me.

And also BTW, you started on this forum as an abrasive, insulting, asshole who pissed everybody off. But you changed your tune to a blatant brown-noser, kissing up to the veteran posters so they could come to your defense. You also troll my threads and jump into arguments where you don't belong. THEN you have the nerve to accuse ME of trolling.

You're a fucking joke.

I use mentions because it is courteous to make people aware when you are discussing them. I don't use them for backup. My posting style has not changed one iota, from the start. I have had arguments with Miles and Bilbo because I disagreed with them and mainly with Bilbo because he became personal, trite and offensive with his pseudo intellectual approach. You are condescending with ANYBODY who fails to agree or suck up to you. Irony and sarcasm go completely over your head and everything becomes a personal insult in your eyes. You project a blind nationalistic biased tint onto posts by British and Mexican forum members that simply isn't there and then use homoerotic imagery as though adults quite secure in their own sexuality are going to be offended and respond in kind. No one is biting mate, maybe you should get off your high horse or at least try stepping down a couple rungs before jumping to conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

I use mentions because it is courteous to make people aware when you are discussing them. I don't use them for backup. My posting style has not changed one iota, from the start. I have had arguments with Miles and Bilbo because I disagreed with them and mainly with Bilbo because he became personal, trite and offensive with his pseudo intellectual approach. You are condescending with ANYBODY who fails to agree or suck up to you. Irony and sarcasm go completely over your head and everything becomes a personal insult in your eyes. You project a blind nationalistic biased tint onto posts by British and Mexican forum members that simply isn't there and then use homoerotic imagery as though adults quite secure in their own sexuality are going to be offended and respond in kind. No one is biting mate, maybe you should get off your high horse or at least try stepping down a couple rungs before jumping to conclusions.

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Quit speaking for the whole forum and speak for yourself. Get some backbone and borrow a set of balls if you don't have any. You blatantly beg for support whether you realize and accept it, or not. Like I said in another thread... there are some very obvious cliques here. You've made damn sure to be inducted in one of them. You think because this is mainly a British forum, that everyone is going to come running to your aid when you cry for help. You also think it gives you a license to be abrasive and condescending, the very things you accuse me of. Then... as is your M.O., you go off and post some "Isn't life beautiful" thread somewhere else so people can develop sympathy for you. "Blind nationalistic biased tint"? Don't be so naive, kid. Many people on here suffer from the same disease, including yourself. I also asked you to produce one post which proves I'm "homophobic". You can't, because other than the sexual jokes many people throw around, there isn't anything I've ever said that proves I'm homophobic. Again... if you're gonna throw around accusations, back them up. Show me one fucking post where I've said I'm homophobic or racist. You can't, can you? Maybe your little friend can help you with that one.

@TitoFan seeing as you clearly have issues maybe you would care to start a thread somewhere other than here on BOXING talk in which to vent them. I apologise for using the mention feature @TitoFan as so excellently suggested by @CutMeMick but I did so in order to make it clear it was not resevervd for posters like @Fenster with whom you seem to think I am I'm collusion along with @Violent Demise or anyone else who does not blow smoke up your...

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

@TitoFan seeing as you clearly have issues maybe you would care to start a thread somewhere other than here on BOXING talk in which to vent them. I apologise for using the mention feature @TitoFan as so excellently suggested by @CutMeMick but I did so in order to make it clear it was not resevervd for posters like @Fenster with whom you seem to think I am I'm collusion along with @Violent Demise or anyone else who does not blow smoke up your...

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Apology accepted.
Now please refrain from any other posts on this thread that do not pertain to the subject originally intended.
Thanks.

:)

Andre Ward. If he knocked people out he might be able to sell out his home arena but if he was exactly the same fighter he is now but had a Mayweather/Broner-style mouth on him he'd be a PPV fighter now. Without the hype and the headlines boxing is just two guys beating each other up and to turn fights from two guys beating each other up into events that people will discuss around the water cooler and pay fifty plus dollars to watch you've got to have braggadocio, controversy, arrogance, bad behaviour and so on.

I'm not disputing what you're saying... but don't you think the promoting side bears some responsibility as well? I think promoters in general have done a piss poor job in promoting someone like Andre Ward. I also think the division itself doesn't help, in the sense that there's lesser known quality at that weight than at a more popular weight, like welter or middle. But yeah... unfortunately Andre's personality doesn't help promote him. It's refreshing to see someone like Andre, but many fans aren't going to tune in unless he starts acting like a jerk and calling people out.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I'm not disputing what you're saying... but don't you think the promoting side bears some responsibility as well? I think promoters in general have done a piss poor job in promoting someone like Andre Ward. I also think the division itself doesn't help, in the sense that there's lesser known quality at that weight than at a more popular weight, like welter or middle. But yeah... unfortunately Andre's personality doesn't help promote him. It's refreshing to see someone like Andre, but many fans aren't going to tune in unless he starts acting like a jerk and calling people out.

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Getting him into the Spuer Six and all his fights at home then getting him the light heavy champ on HBO isn't too shabby a job of promoting him. But you've got to have something to promote. A quietly-spoken respectful guy isn't the easiest thing to work with. If Ward had been a total cunt at the start of the Super Six, telling people the rest of the six were shit and he was going to beat the shit out of them then he would have been off to the races. He could have stood in the ring after the Kessler fight and made his mouth go. He'd just beaten the favourite and people would have started to take notice. You'd get a lot of people loving him and a lot of people hating him but they'd all tune in. Unfortunately for him he's not that kind of person, he's throwing away millions by not being a cunt.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I'm not disputing what you're saying... but don't you think the promoting side bears some responsibility as well? I think promoters in general have done a piss poor job in promoting someone like Andre Ward. I also think the division itself doesn't help, in the sense that there's lesser known quality at that weight than at a more popular weight, like welter or middle. But yeah... unfortunately Andre's personality doesn't help promote him. It's refreshing to see someone like Andre, but many fans aren't going to tune in unless he starts acting like a jerk and calling people out.

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Getting him into the Spuer Six and all his fights at home then getting him the light heavy champ on HBO isn't too shabby a job of promoting him. But you've got to have something to promote. A quietly-spoken respectful guy isn't the easiest thing to work with. If Ward had been a total cunt at the start of the Super Six, telling people the rest of the six were shit and he was going to beat the shit out of them then he would have been off to the races. He could have stood in the ring after the Kessler fight and made his mouth go. He'd just beaten the favourite and people would have started to take notice. You'd get a lot of people loving him and a lot of people hating him but they'd all tune in. Unfortunately for him he's not that kind of person, he's throwing away millions by not being a cunt.

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Exactly.

Olympic gold medal winner, unbeaten, Super Six champion, WBC/WBA champion, P4P ranked no.3 and has 140,000 twitter followers.

The days of quiet/nice guys becoming stars has gone.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I'm not disputing what you're saying... but don't you think the promoting side bears some responsibility as well? I think promoters in general have done a piss poor job in promoting someone like Andre Ward. I also think the division itself doesn't help, in the sense that there's lesser known quality at that weight than at a more popular weight, like welter or middle. But yeah... unfortunately Andre's personality doesn't help promote him. It's refreshing to see someone like Andre, but many fans aren't going to tune in unless he starts acting like a jerk and calling people out.

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Getting him into the Spuer Six and all his fights at home then getting him the light heavy champ on HBO isn't too shabby a job of promoting him. But you've got to have something to promote. A quietly-spoken respectful guy isn't the easiest thing to work with. If Ward had been a total cunt at the start of the Super Six, telling people the rest of the six were shit and he was going to beat the shit out of them then he would have been off to the races. He could have stood in the ring after the Kessler fight and made his mouth go. He'd just beaten the favourite and people would have started to take notice. You'd get a lot of people loving him and a lot of people hating him but they'd all tune in. Unfortunately for him he's not that kind of person, he's throwing away millions by not being a cunt.

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Exactly.

Olympic gold medal winner, unbeaten, Super Six champion, WBC/WBA champion, P4P ranked no.3 and has 140,000 twitter followers.

The days of quiet/nice guys becoming stars has gone.

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Let's suppose for an instant that Kelly Pavlik would've panned out the way he was initially projected. Or Andre Berto, for that matter. You don't think they would've had a huge PPV following by now, regardless of the fact they're soft-spoken and somewhat humble?

They wouldn't because they weren't talented enough.

Berto is a nobody. Pavlik would have been much bigger but he quickly got exposed and become a pisshead.

Finding the new SRL is basically impossible.

(patiently) Yes, Fenster.... I know. They weren't talented enough. That's why I started with "let's suppose....", ok? It's a discussion. I'm saying that, had they had the talent HBO was assuming they had (OR... had Pavlik stayed on the straight and narrow, instead of becoming an alcoholic)...... there's a chance they would've been huge PPV stars.

My point is, if I may, that it's not completely essential that a star be an asshole like a Tyson or a Mayweather to be hugely popular. It helps, I guess... but it's not essential. Huge talent in a popular division, with a good personality, could carry you also.

That's all I'm saying.

Yeah your point is very clear.

Currently there is no modern fighter that comes close to fitting your idea of an "all american hero"

So you are left with fantasy "what ifs"

Yes Pavlik would have been a bigger star had he been more talented. He wasn't. So it's impossible to gauge what his popularity would have been in this current time.

If a time comes when an "all american hero" becomes as brilliant, popular and famous as Floyd Maywether, then you can consider your theory about nice guys was correct.

Bad guy appeal sells and has a definite effect on all things concerning the fighter including sales in ppv and the gate. Many of the overall numbers are purchased by people who want to him get shit kicked. Those are facts and they can be shown empirically going as far back as ancient Greece. How much does it have to do with the actual cash numbers I have no idea but I'd wager its significant.

The good guy also sells and one needs to look no further then Hatton. Andre Ward's good boy image on the other hand is over the top. I don't see him ever attaining Hattons type of popularity. Relying on these social media sites to gauge popularity is like using compubox to gauge a fight. I mean with Wards pedigree and accomplishments you would think his numbers would be through the roof in fight revenues. I do not like Ward and its a personality thing. He's a gifted fighter/technician but a part of me would like to see him cold cocked. Now again I will watch his fights anyway because of my love for the sport but I'm sure that a certain percentage of the casual and non boxing fans would pay to see him get decked. Dislike actually has an effect in sales for the exceptional good guy and the exceptional bad guy but admittedly more for the bad guy.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Bad guy appeal sells and has a definite effect on all things concerning the fighter including sales in ppv and the gate. Many of the overall numbers are purchased by people who want to him get shit kicked. Those are facts and they can be shown empirically going as far back as ancient Greece. How much does it have to do with the actual cash numbers I have no idea but I'd wager its significant.

The good guy also sells and one needs to look no further then Hatton. Andre Ward's good boy image on the other hand is over the top. I don't see him ever attaining Hattons type of popularity. Relying on these social media sites to gauge popularity is like using compubox to gauge a fight. I mean with Wards pedigree and accomplishments you would think his numbers would be through the roof in fight revenues. I do not like Ward and its a personality thing. He's a gifted fighter/technician but a part of me would like to see him cold cocked. Now again I will watch his fights anyway because of my love for the sport but I'm sure that a certain percentage of the casual and non anboxing fans would pay to see him get decked. Dislike actually has an effect in sales for the exceptional good guy and the exceptional bad guy but admittedly more for the bad anguy.

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I agree with almost everything you've said, with this exception. I like Ward and can't understand why you don't.
This is not an attack on you, and I'm not saying you should like Ward, I would just like to know why you don't.
I think we can all agree that Ward is the GOOD Floyd, and Floyd is the BAD Ward. They are both very skilled, cautious, and intelligent boxers who always win.
I like Ward because he gives respect to everyone around him and I think he means what he says, plus he wins.
I dislike Floyd because you will never know what is going on in his head. I think I would trust Fenster before Floyd, and Floyd doesn't even drink. Seriously, is the real Floyd the one we saw go to jail for domestic abuse or the one we saw running a 5K for charity. I'm hanging around waiting to see the real Floyd, and buying PPV to see him get knocked on his ass. I don't even care if he wins or loses, I just want to see him sitting on his butt in the middle of the ring because of a solid KD. I know, I know, I'm a petty little shit but that's me.

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Originally Posted by beenKOed

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Bad guy appeal sells and has a definite effect on all things concerning the fighter including sales in ppv and the gate. Many of the overall numbers are purchased by people who want to him get shit kicked. Those are facts and they can be shown empirically going as far back as ancient Greece. How much does it have to do with the actual cash numbers I have no idea but I'd wager its significant.

The good guy also sells and one needs to look no further then Hatton. Andre Ward's good boy image on the other hand is over the top. I don't see him ever attaining Hattons type of popularity. Relying on these social media sites to gauge popularity is like using compubox to gauge a fight. I mean with Wards pedigree and accomplishments you would think his numbers would be through the roof in fight revenues. I do not like Ward and its a personality thing. He's a gifted fighter/technician but a part of me would like to see him cold cocked. Now again I will watch his fights anyway because of my love for the sport but I'm sure that a certain percentage of the casual and non anboxing fans would pay to see him get decked. Dislike actually has an effect in sales for the exceptional good guy and the exceptional bad guy but admittedly more for the bad anguy.

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I agree with almost everything you've said, with this exception. I like Ward and can't understand why you don't.
This is not an attack on you, and I'm not saying you should like Ward, I would just like to know why you don't.
I think we can all agree that Ward is the GOOD Floyd, and Floyd is the BAD Ward. They are both very skilled, cautious, and intelligent boxers who always win.
I like Ward because he gives respect to everyone around him and I think he means what he says, plus he wins.
I dislike Floyd because you will never know what is going on in his head. I think I would trust Fenster before Floyd, and Floyd doesn't even drink. Seriously, is the real Floyd the one we saw go to jail for domestic abuse or the one we saw running a 5K for charity. I'm hanging around waiting to see the real Floyd, and buying PPV to see him get knocked on his ass. I don't even care if he wins or loses, I just want to see him sitting on his butt in the middle of the ring because of a solid KD. I know, I know, I'm a petty little shit but that's me.

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Fair question. And again ftr I think he's a fantastic fighter. I guess it started with the tourney and him getting home ice throughout and then post the tourney again only fighting at home. Getting away with judges and homie refs. Not even getting a warning for using his head in the Kessler fight. He's also smug to me and a little to squeaky clean. Yet I'm not really bothered by Broner and many people are. Just one of those things I guess. I don't know art but I know what I like.

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Originally Posted by Master

Seth Mitchell is the future.

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Bold statement to make considering he hasn't fought anyone!!!!!!! He's 30 ffs! LOL.

Mitchell is a schooling waiting to happen. The US will have to get used to this shift in boxing and accept that they can't have it all there way anymore.

Jennings looks quite good. Apart from that the HW future lies with the eastern europeans for the fore seeable future. Brit david price and Pulev would beat mitchell. Povetkin and adamek would outbox him too. It's diabolical that the guy has 25 fights and is still yet to fight a world class opponent! Mitchell would get beaten by the seasoned eddie chambers too so how is he the future of american HW boxing? He's not even the best contender! And he's certainly not the best yank.

Best current yank is chambers. Best prospect is jennings.

http://www.boxingscene.com/media/dat...chambers-5.jpg

http://www.peltzboxing.com/photos/03...Liakhovich.jpg

Just because theres no great american heavyweight boxers anymore does not mean everything has shifted over to germany or wherever you think it is.
Im english, and the bottom line is the best £4£ fighter on earth is american and that wont change until he retires.
Simples fella.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I'm not disputing what you're saying... but don't you think the promoting side bears some responsibility as well? I think promoters in general have done a piss poor job in promoting someone like Andre Ward. I also think the division itself doesn't help, in the sense that there's lesser known quality at that weight than at a more popular weight, like welter or middle. But yeah... unfortunately Andre's personality doesn't help promote him. It's refreshing to see someone like Andre, but many fans aren't going to tune in unless he starts acting like a jerk and calling people out.

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Getting him into the Spuer Six and all his fights at home then getting him the light heavy champ on HBO isn't too shabby a job of promoting him. But you've got to have something to promote. A quietly-spoken respectful guy isn't the easiest thing to work with. If Ward had been a total cunt at the start of the Super Six, telling people the rest of the six were shit and he was going to beat the shit out of them then he would have been off to the races. He could have stood in the ring after the Kessler fight and made his mouth go. He'd just beaten the favourite and people would have started to take notice. You'd get a lot of people loving him and a lot of people hating him but they'd all tune in. Unfortunately for him he's not that kind of person, he's throwing away millions by not being a cunt.

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Exactly.

Olympic gold medal winner, unbeaten, Super Six champion, WBC/WBA champion, P4P ranked no.3 and has 140,000 twitter followers.

The days of quiet/nice guys becoming stars has gone.

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I would agree with this up to a point. Unless you have some kid come along with SRL-type skills and a megawatt nice personality and win gold at the Olympics then it's hard to see any boxer making the kind of breakthrough into the mainstream where he's going to get TV and press coverage, endorsements etc. But De La Hoya was marketed that way and had the skills to go with the hype, so it isn't completely impossible for it to happen again.

But basically all boxers can forget about getting any mainstream media coverage and becoming known to sports fans. Ward is a perfect example. Hasn't lost since he was eleven, won the Olympic gold, unbeaten world champ, etc etc and nobody knows him. So really the only way these guys can seriously promote themselves to a point where people get to hear about them is with their mouth/behaviour. Ward needs to start telling people he really is the son of god and as god's son he's unbeatable in the ring, get some bling, punch his wife, maybe shoot his dad in the leg or something.

I wonder though, how difficult would it be for Wards team to contact someone at Nike and say hey listen this is who Ward is and He'd like to endorse your products.

Also another thing, boxing is the one sport that almost all other professional athletes in america like. I don't know why but it just is.

Or better yet call non stop people at sports illustrated to get a feature on him. After all he is the last american to win the gold medal and he is kicking ass and taking names.

I have no idea how these things work but I remember an interview with Archie Moore in which he said almost every night he wrote letters to all outlets of media introducing himself to them and saying why he should be under their coverage.

Benavidez was lucky on Saturday night. There have got to be serious questions about his chin now. He went into an Amir Khan-like total body discombobulation. He didn't look too special in the rest of the fight either.

I would like to think Gary Russell Jr. , but American's don't typically care about anything below light welter.

Broner could be that guy, I think he's going to eventually move up to 140 and that's where he can really start to make a name for himself. The Ponce de Leon incident was a hiccup, but will be mostly forgotten once he starts moving in to higher weight classes.

Deontay Wilder? Please, he's already 4 years older than Broner and he's still fighting garbage