Should Scotland stay in the UK?

Today is the day and I am so excited. I haven't been this excited since Hatton/Mayweather and prior to that England/Germany 1990. Both times I shed a tear, so I am hoping this is 3rd time lucky. I am an aging man and I should no longer cry. Something in me feels dark and dangerous and that means that my spider senses are tingling. I can sense something. It is like when Mayweather fights, you just know beforehand he is going to cheat and the referee will do nothing about it. The officials will try to impede on the beautiful vision, hope and glory.

Come on Scotland, every one of you needs to count. Your bravery, your awakening, has touched me. In a world of corruption, hate, and abuse, you are still there going toe to toe with the war machine and they are scared. You see it in their eyes, the way they are begging you to stay, so that they can line their coffers, their expenses, their wars, with your resources and your hard earned taxes. You have never voted Tory and neither did the rest of the country, but they got in regardless and have assaulted the world and their own people with acts of savagery not known since the previous administration, the Labour of that worthless swine, Tony Blair.

A million dead and a collapsed and fraudulent economic system and to then blame ordinary people and assault them with lies about terror and needing austerity when they bankrupted the system for their mates and invaded sovereign countries. You want more of this? Look what they are setting up right now and they have paid for it at your expense! Austerity and war will never end with this lot. Do the right thing.

People want freedom and hope and you give us hope that freedom can be.

I'd be amazed if they vote yes :S U.k to continue as normal after tomorrow.

I cannot believe it is the poll today, but we are not going to know the result until this time tomorrow. This is intolerable, how on earth are we going to be able to wait another 24 hours? It's driving me insane!

4 million people with a third of the entire land and untapped resources! How brilliant will that be for them! Scotland already knows how to make excellent products. People will pay hundreds of dollars here for their whiskey. Shortbread! I buy my sausages from a Scottish butcher. I love Scotland! There is so much potential and what a word that is: POTENTIAL! It means a chance, hope! To rip up welfare reform, privatisation, fracking, wars. This is brilliant. It's life!

Get your shoe off of my face! I will push you to the ground shouting 'I don't like you and what you have done, you freemason scum!' Secret handshakes, get out. These men wear skirts and I bloody well like it. George Orwell lived out his days in Scotland, he knew the score.

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Originally Posted by palmerq

I'd be amazed if they vote yes :S U.k to continue as normal after tomorrow.

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They will vote no, but a federal structure is going to lead to big changes in the way the UK works.

In answer to both Rhun and Miles, money is not the most important thing in life so why would an English man want to throw away the Union in order only to make his own country richer ? Are you really both that shallow ? I like to think not.

Alex fishy Salmon is raising a false flag on a tidal wave of negativity. His entire campaign has been based on a fantasy, so really I should not be surprised by Miles being so easily led up the garden path. The reality is that many of the great things about Britain have fuck all to do with Scotland, and that the few concessions they have made to the left like free education has been heavily subsidised by the English. The tyranny of the multi conglomerates will continue under the SNP and the infrastructure put into to place by the BRITISH will continue to make the barons rich and everyone else poorer. You can not have your shortbread whilst simultaneously eating it.

Maybe we should pull up all the roads, pipes, cables,railways, etc laid by the British and throw that away along with the language, sterling and all the joint history of achievements as a United Kingdom and just shut our English mouths as the sheeple all follow Alex and his pipe, like so many rats into the sea. That would fit the nationalist narrative nicely and then any subsequent problems that Scotland suffers could once again be blamed on the English as though the Northern Irish and Welsh don't exist at all or are all Halo wearing saints.

The Scottish government has already placed less priority on funding the NHS than England. It has allowed even the extremely affluent the luxury of free prescriptions which could have funded help for the less fortunate in real need. Salmond's Scotland will ditch it's promise of social democracy and welcome in the Russian and Chinese elite, lowering taxes for the uber rich and suffocating those at the bottom of the pile in the process.

The Scots already have a separate legal and education system, it's own parliament and MP's in Westminster including two very recent Scottish Prime ministers in Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, in case you have forgotten, so accusations of sweating under an unfair English yoke are nonsense and negative ruses to divide and misinform.

The vitriol, hate and violence espoused by the yes campaign towards anyone challenging their imaginary twisted Union in which there lies no vestige of decency or value is astonishing. When Alex and his cronies attack the United Kingdom they attack not only the English, Welsh and Northern Irish that make such a unique system great but also the Scottish men and women who have enough common sense to understand the value and importance of tolerating difference within the same family. Britain ditching the "Great" prefix was understandable, but seeking to repaint the vandalism of breaking up a United Kingdom as some kind of valiant and honorable march towards freedom, is both dishonest and stupid. I may not have a vote, but I will not sit here in silence and pretend that the Scottish never added anything to that great union, or that the sporting,military, cultural,literary,artistic and political achievements we made together can be so casually dismissed and consigned to dustbin of history, just to appear trendy and right on like countless other dopey, fuzzy headed, non-Scottish nationalist cheerleaders.

If Scotland stays, where is the possibility of the UK ever ending austerity? War? Privatisation? etc etc. There is simply no defence against the Westminster onslaught. The health service is being privatised by stealth, the mail service is already gone. Labour says it will continue the same things. At least Salmond is saying sensible things such as not allowing vulnerable people to suffer, education, free healthcare etc and he also suggests how to pay for it. Getting rid of nuclear weapons is a great thing. I just don't understand how anybody could want the status quo to continue. It has failed for 30 years and there is nothing to suggest it will improve. It is getting worse and Labour says they will perpetuate it. There is no way out with the current system. It simply has to go and I don't even see how this vote is close, most of the views I have seen are yes.

What do you get out of it? Most ordinary people get nothing from this system except the screw. How can anyone want to continue the Westminster model?These are clearly not your values, Greenbeanz, so I struggle to understand you. You are against cuts on welfare, NHS eradication and so on. You have seen the model in place over decades. It won't be reversed by these Eton clowns. If Scotland can be free then I am happy and pleased for them. All in it together shouldn't mean everyone goes down together.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

If Scotland stays, where is the possibility of the UK ever ending austerity? War? Privatisation? etc etc. There is simply no defence against the Westminster onslaught. The health service is being privatised by stealth, the mail service is already gone. Labour says it will continue the same things. At least Salmond is saying sensible things such as not allowing vulnerable people to suffer, education, free healthcare etc and he also suggests how to pay for it. Getting rid of nuclear weapons is a great thing. I just don't understand how anybody could want the status quo to continue. It has failed for 30 years and there is nothing to suggest it will improve. It is getting worse and Labour says they will perpetuate it. There is no way out with the current system. It simply has to go and I don't even see how this vote is close, most of the views I have seen are yes.

What do you get out of it? Most ordinary people get nothing from this system except the screw. How can anyone want to continue the Westminster model?These are clearly not your values, Greenbeanz, so I struggle to understand you. You are against cuts on welfare, NHS eradication and so on. You have seen the model in place over decades. It won't be reversed by these Eton clowns. If Scotland can be free then I am happy and pleased for them. All in it together shouldn't mean everyone goes down together.

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I vote for the Green party not Labour. Salmond is saying lots of things but they are all lies. He is looking after himself and all the other cronies and you have fallen for it hook, line and sinker just as you have blindly followed that other schill Alex Jones.

I know you do, but they are not going to do anything in a first past the post system for a long, long time. Voting is effectively redundant and yet here people are having a direct say and thus they are galvanised. People are active in Scotland and want democracy. The UK system is broken and I haven't fallen for any lies. I just like to see people active and free.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

I vote for the Green party not Labour. Salmond is saying lots of things but they are all lies.

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The Green party is in alliance with the SNP over Scottish Independence though...

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Originally Posted by Britkid

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

I vote for the Green party not Labour. Salmond is saying lots of things but they are all lies.

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The Green party though is in alliance with the SNP over Scottish Independence though...

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And?.....

on this they are mistaken.

It is quite Ironic that a poster with your moniker should think the break up a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Britkid

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

I vote for the Green party not Labour. Salmond is saying lots of things but they are all lies.

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The Green party though is in alliance with the SNP over Scottish Independence though...

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And?.....

on this they are mistaken.

It is quite Ironic that a poster with your moniker should think the break up a good idea.

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I did not, still with my 'heart' do not. But although I suspect it will be no, it will be a very close no, and within a decade there will be another vote that will probably have more voting yes.

We are going to be in a horrible situation in the Union tomorrow, when we find out nearly half of the Scots voting, want their independence. So let us just get Independence out the way, and sort out our relationship from there. And give the Northern Irish and the Welsh their chance too.

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Originally Posted by Britkid

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Britkid

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

I vote for the Green party not Labour. Salmond is saying lots of things but they are all lies.

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The Green party though is in alliance with the SNP over Scottish Independence though...

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And?.....

on this they are mistaken.

It is quite Ironic that a poster with your moniker should think the break up a good idea.

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I did not, still with my 'heart' do not. But although I suspect it will be no, it will be a very close no, and within a decade there will be another vote that will probably have more voting yes.

We are going to be in a horrible situation in the Union tomorrow, when we find out nearly half of the Scots voting, want their independence. So let us just get Independence out the way, and sort out our relationship from there. And give the Northern Irish and the Welsh their chance too.

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The chance for independence I hope the Scots thinking long and hard, will nationalism pay the
bills, NHS , roads , housing, etc.!!!! Wales could be next one thing we would be rid of the Conservatives, but there is more to it than this, Westminster has let people down all the party's
have people feeling they are alienated. So if the Scots VOTE YES, in a wave of nationalism the
job cuts in public services, north south dived in standards of living, Cameron you have fucked it
up you tory twat.

Negative campaigning isn't just on the side of the Yes campaign, did you hear about the no campaigners telling Polish immigrants that they'd be deported if Scotland voted Yes? That's absolutely ridiculous and the worst form of trying to convince voters with any means or lies necessary.

Nationalism won't pay the bills, but cut out the expense of Trident and give Scotland the full income that their country generates, and I think they'll be in a much better place than the remains of the UK.

As a child I remember running around playing and pretending to be a soldier in Owain Glyndwr's army stabbing the English and getting them out of my country. While politics and growing up may have changed how I'd go about gaining independence from England, that desire to have an independent nation hasn't changed for me, and I doubt it ever will.

Is it true a law was changed to allow sixteen year olds to vote for this election.

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Originally Posted by walrus

Is it true a law was changed to allow sixteen year olds to vote for this election.

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Yup, 16 and 17 year olds were given the vote, and based on the 97% registration, I suspect thousands of them will have voted too. No doubt this is one of the most interesting and engaging political campaigns in British politics for centuries.

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Originally Posted by superheavyrhun

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Originally Posted by walrus

Is it true a law was changed to allow sixteen year olds to vote for this election.

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Yup, 16 and 17 year olds were given the vote, and based on the 97% registration, I suspect thousands of them will have voted too. No doubt this is one of the most interesting and engaging political campaigns in British politics for centuries.

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And so they should be allowed. I was 17, working full time and paying my taxes when the 1992 Election came around, and yet was not allowed to vote...

Having the youngins vote was a smart move by the pro side. They will easily fall into a Nationalism vote without looking for the big picture. Whichever way it goes I hope it is best for the Scotts

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Originally Posted by superheavyrhun

Negative campaigning isn't just on the side of the Yes campaign, did you hear about the no campaigners telling Polish immigrants that they'd be deported if Scotland voted Yes? That's absolutely ridiculous and the worst form of trying to convince voters with any means or lies necessary.

Nationalism won't pay the bills, but cut out the expense of Trident and give Scotland the full income that their country generates, and I think they'll be in a much better place than the remains of the UK.

As a child I remember running around playing and pretending to be a soldier in Owain Glyndwr's army stabbing the English and getting them out of my country. While politics and growing up may have changed how I'd go about gaining independence from England, that desire to have an independent nation hasn't changed for me, and I doubt it ever will.

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The whole of the westcountry used to be called West Wales so what is your point? You have your own parliament as does Scotland, as an Englishman I do not. You both have a say on how money is spent in England but we have no say on what happens in Wales and Scotland. So who is under the yoke?

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by superheavyrhun

Negative campaigning isn't just on the side of the Yes campaign, did you hear about the no campaigners telling Polish immigrants that they'd be deported if Scotland voted Yes? That's absolutely ridiculous and the worst form of trying to convince voters with any means or lies necessary.

Nationalism won't pay the bills, but cut out the expense of Trident and give Scotland the full income that their country generates, and I think they'll be in a much better place than the remains of the UK.

As a child I remember running around playing and pretending to be a soldier in Owain Glyndwr's army stabbing the English and getting them out of my country. While politics and growing up may have changed how I'd go about gaining independence from England, that desire to have an independent nation hasn't changed for me, and I doubt it ever will.

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The whole of the westcountry used to be called West Wales so what is your point? You have your own parliament as does Scotland, as an Englishman I do not. You both have a say on how money is spent in England but we have no say on what happens in Wales and Scotland. So who is under the yoke?

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Well, I hate to disagree, but as the budgets for the independent parliaments are decided in London, I'd say that England has a rather large say on what happens in Wales. I'm surprised they don't have to switch off the streetlights around the Assembly it gets such a bum deal on the budget.

Again, England already has a great parliament building, you use yours, we'll use ours and we can get through the painful divorce and start rebuilding links as equals.

I don't like that first result. I knew something was wrong yesterday with my tingling spider senses. Now the second result and another overwhelming No. These are only small regions, but the numbers are horrible. I'm not sure I trust voting systems anymore. For instance, who ever votes Conservative? Who? Who? If we were to do a poll here, they would be lucky to get 2 out of 10 votes! Yet they run our country and do only bad things to people. The elite run a Scottish campaign based on threats and intimidation and people vote for that? To be bullied and threatened? If they vote no, then we are going to see Syria and Iraq ripped apart very soon. The health service will be gone. It will be a wasteland and you don't want to work on minimum wage? Well, here's another 300,000 who will! It doesn't bear thinking about. Scotland, what are you doing? What are you doing?

Hate to say it Miles, but I agree the early results are discouraging to say the least. Nonetheless, one big city vote for Yes and that lead could easily be overturned. The question is, are there any big cities that have overwhelmingly gone one way or the other.

7 results in and all No. It doesn't sit right with me that you can ignore a campaign, then wade in with threats about currency etc, then in the last few days make promises that were NEVER on the table. Plus the media that was assaulting the Scottish people day in day out with fear and nonsense. 'Ooh Isis will get you, Asda will raise your prices'. I mean, what? That isn't a fair referendum. You know the despicable Westminster crew will now try and teach Scotland a lesson like they do everyone else. More cuts, more burden, more immigration, more fear, but bigger budgets for them and lobbyist firms and the secret services. I said in the other thread that people are typically not outspoken and fear will keep them quiet, fear will make them reject change. Most people don't get vocal, they watch the fear box, and stay safe.

Still, first vote for yes has just come in.

Oh well, its only short boat trip from there over to Northern Ireland. ;)

The No's are racking up and up and it seems to be over. 56 No, 44 Yes with 17 declarations. BBC with more Middle East fear mongering too. God, I hate the BBC.

Edit: The result is what it is. Still 46% of the people are so annoyed that they have rejected the political system of the UK entirely. That is significant. The problem with the UK is still the FPTP voting system and it will marginalise people and keep voting turnouts low. There is no alternative to vote for in a national election though and if you would only give people a direct proportional vote, then the system is more representative. I think fear of change has won out here, but by a couple of percentage points alone. I sense a lot of unrest in the future. I am sure that 46% of the people nationwide reject Westminster and that gives me hope.

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Originally Posted by ryanman

55-45 for the No's is my prediction.

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This is why we need you in such a key position within the party. A splendid call worthy of Mystic Meg herself. I had my own portents of doom yesterday too, despite my prior Castro visions, and I think the difference was probably old people worried about their pensions. Fear was the barrier and considering the history, would you trust the English elite? Suffer less if you stay, but if you leave, we will really play nasty. Then the last minute bribery. I don't know how that is even allowed. How can you have Brown running in with proposals written on the back of a beermat? The fact that he speaks to Cameron privately sums up Westminster and the Lab/Lib/Con monopoly. 'We all say vote No or else......oh go on then some extras too!'. Is that how ad hoc it all is? I guess the fact that the Chancellor has no mathematics/economics qualifications sums the establishment up. A bunch of clowns mostly in it because they are rich and little else.

Any similar referendums held around the world almost always require a 2/3rds majority for the 'yes' to pass.
It is very democratic and unusual to only require a simple majority.
If this was set up for Yes to fail it would have just been a 2/3rd majority requirement like almost all precedents.

So, Dundee and Glasgow voted yes.
Right, let's cordon them off. Don't deny them. Give them independence.
Perimeter fence all round.

Scottish people have over £1000 more spent on them per person per year and yet we are supposed to see them as the hard done by? Scottish and Welsh Mps get to dictate how money is spent on the English and then on themselves in their own Parliament but the English do not. Now apparently Manchester want independence and parliament there. The arrogance of it.

Miles you have seen democracy in action and are acting like a spoilt child because your cherry picking version of reality is so intolerant and dictatorial that you will not even contemplate the merits of a different point of view.

When people are given a fair choice without threats, bribery and a constant Goebbels style media assault then people cannot complain so much. However, only one paper gave the Scots a pro voice, the BBC was biased, the politicians were abusive and threatening and what swung it was apparently a head bobbing Brown with a bunch of words written on the back of a packet of pork scratchings or was it a beermat? I couldn't tell with all of his slick moves running to and fro and was admittedly distracted by his unseemly satanic possession. Now, if you think that is a fair approach then good for you, but the people making these last minute promises are ALL known liars on serious issues.

I worry and with good reason. William Hague is apparently now in charge of leading these apparent changes. Does that fill you with confidence? Every bad event is an opportunity for these people and does anyone really think that the Lib/Lab/Con tag team is going to ever do anything positive for ordinary people? They are not going to let this opportunity go to waste. It is now going to be the common purpose devolution option which was always the plan. Occupation by stealth.

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Originally Posted by ryanman

55-45 for the No's is my prediction.

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I said no was going to win too, but thought it was going to be 52/48 at best. I think it was obvious that the Yes side needed at least a six point lead going into the vote, but I did not think the polls were that far out!

So Nostradamus whats your call for the General Election?! ;)

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Originally Posted by Britkid

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Originally Posted by ryanman

55-45 for the No's is my prediction.

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I said no was going to win too, but thought it was going to be 52/48 at best. I think it was obvious that the Yes side needed at least a six point lead going into the vote, but I did not think the polls were that far out!

So Nostradamus whats your call for the General Election?! ;)

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Yep I just figured that undecideds would definitely cause a few point swing to the No side. But was countering that by figuring that Yes was a more mobilising vote.

Just to add to my earlier point about this being unusual in that for the motion to carry it only need 50.1% of the vote, it was also a very fair question for the Yes side.
If the question had been 'Should Scotland remain part of the UK?' then the margin of victory would have been greater.

Miles this is a fair result, decided by the people. They have engaged in this in a way not seen before and the debate has largely been intelligent and rational. The No side did seem to throw things in at the end, yet the Yes side did seem to be deploying 'rent-a-mobs' for the last couple of weeks and unfairly labeling No voters as un-Scottish.

Personally I didn't have a preference either way. Not because I'm not interested but because I felt that whatever the people of Scotland decided would be the right result. That is democracy.

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Originally Posted by Britkid

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Originally Posted by ryanman

55-45 for the No's is my prediction.

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I said no was going to win too, but thought it was going to be 52/48 at best. I think it was obvious that the Yes side needed at least a six point lead going into the vote, but I did not think the polls were that far out!

So Nostradamus whats your call for the General Election?! ;)

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As for General Election - I've no idea! Other than no party will get an outright majority.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

When people are given a fair choice without threats, bribery and a constant Goebbels style media assault then people cannot complain so much. However, only one paper gave the Scots a pro voice, the BBC was biased, the politicians were abusive and threatening and what swung it was apparently a head bobbing Brown with a bunch of words written on the back of a packet of pork scratchings or was it a beermat? I couldn't tell with all of his slick moves running to and fro and was admittedly distracted by his unseemly satanic possession. Now, if you think that is a fair approach then good for you, but the people making these last minute promises are ALL known liars on serious issues.

I worry and with good reason. William Hague is apparently now in charge of leading these apparent changes. Does that fill you with confidence? Every bad event is an opportunity for these people and does anyone really think that the Lib/Lab/Con tag team is going to ever do anything positive for ordinary people? They are not going to let this opportunity go to waste. It is now going to be the common purpose devolution option which was always the plan. Occupation by stealth.

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Why didn't they just save the hassle and implement the requirement for a 2/3rds majority that is the norm for such votes around the world?

That would have been easier wouldn't it?

Cameron is a cunt for sure, but he isn't a master puppeteer.

I see nothing here other than a very fair referendum with a fair result.
The Scottish people are not likely to be duped by any of Cameron's crap - this was above party politics. Cameron will be gone next year.

Politicians today are a different breed, they start there life on the political road in University, so
in my eyes theses people, really are professional Politicians.
They have lost touch with the working classes, and Frankly no fuck all about Joe public or don't
really care, take Cameron he's a millionaire,! a privileged up bring , privately educated, this
man loves being Prime Minister for the power not the money he has plenty.
This condescending bunch in Westminster, are far removed from Beanz in Cornwall , Adam in the
northeast, and me in Wrexham, and others round the UK.
The people in Scotland reminded this bunch, people are dissatisfied with them not the Union, and here is fact in Spain a I talking to this Spanish guy he told me he was a Basque,! and proud of
it but he told me when we go to WAR WE ALL GO TO WAR,! so you can have Nationalism but
when your in the shit we are in it altogether very true.!!!!!!!!!;)

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Originally Posted by ryanman

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

When people are given a fair choice without threats, bribery and a constant Goebbels style media assault then people cannot complain so much. However, only one paper gave the Scots a pro voice, the BBC was biased, the politicians were abusive and threatening and what swung it was apparently a head bobbing Brown with a bunch of words written on the back of a packet of pork scratchings or was it a beermat? I couldn't tell with all of his slick moves running to and fro and was admittedly distracted by his unseemly satanic possession. Now, if you think that is a fair approach then good for you, but the people making these last minute promises are ALL known liars on serious issues.

I worry and with good reason. William Hague is apparently now in charge of leading these apparent changes. Does that fill you with confidence? Every bad event is an opportunity for these people and does anyone really think that the Lib/Lab/Con tag team is going to ever do anything positive for ordinary people? They are not going to let this opportunity go to waste. It is now going to be the common purpose devolution option which was always the plan. Occupation by stealth.

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Why didn't they just save the hassle and implement the requirement for a 2/3rds majority that is the norm for such votes around the world?

That would have been easier wouldn't it?

Cameron is a cunt for sure, but he isn't a master puppeteer.

I see nothing here other than a very fair referendum with a fair result.
The Scottish people are not likely to be duped by any of Cameron's crap - this was above party politics. Cameron will be gone next year.

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I cannot speak for the world, but in the UK we have referendums based on a majority and I like it that way. It would have been unacceptable to require 2/3rd's and I assume most people would regard that as draconian and unfair too.

Cameron is not a master puppeteer and that is why the entire parliamentary system is a hoax. Cameron may well be gone next year, but it will be next years model.

I cannot dispute the result other than being disappointed. I don't think it was a fair lead up and Brown looked like he was on ecstasy, but at least the voting process appears to have been well handled. I can understand old people having the fear too, but I want a system that gives something to the young other than draining them dry. It ain't happening with this system.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by ryanman

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

When people are given a fair choice without threats, bribery and a constant Goebbels style media assault then people cannot complain so much. However, only one paper gave the Scots a pro voice, the BBC was biased, the politicians were abusive and threatening and what swung it was apparently a head bobbing Brown with a bunch of words written on the back of a packet of pork scratchings or was it a beermat? I couldn't tell with all of his slick moves running to and fro and was admittedly distracted by his unseemly satanic possession. Now, if you think that is a fair approach then good for you, but the people making these last minute promises are ALL known liars on serious issues.

I worry and with good reason. William Hague is apparently now in charge of leading these apparent changes. Does that fill you with confidence? Every bad event is an opportunity for these people and does anyone really think that the Lib/Lab/Con tag team is going to ever do anything positive for ordinary people? They are not going to let this opportunity go to waste. It is now going to be the common purpose devolution option which was always the plan. Occupation by stealth.

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Why didn't they just save the hassle and implement the requirement for a 2/3rds majority that is the norm for such votes around the world?

That would have been easier wouldn't it?

Cameron is a cunt for sure, but he isn't a master puppeteer.

I see nothing here other than a very fair referendum with a fair result.
The Scottish people are not likely to be duped by any of Cameron's crap - this was above party politics. Cameron will be gone next year.

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I cannot speak for the world, but in the UK we have referendums based on a majority and I like it that way. It would have been unacceptable to require 2/3rd's and I assume most people would regard that as draconian and unfair too.

Cameron is not a master puppeteer and that is why the entire parliamentary system is a hoax. Cameron may well be gone next year, but it will be next years model.

I cannot dispute the result other than being disappointed. I don't think it was a fair lead up and Brown looked like he was on ecstasy, but at least the voting process appears to have been well handled. I can understand old people having the fear too, but I want a system that gives something to the young other than draining them dry. It ain't happening with this system.

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I agree it would be draconian, but with lots of precedent.

Anyway, I certainly don't wish to see the present system conserved.
Fundamental reform is needed, not just in Britain but around the world.

My fundamental belief that underpins all my political thoughts is to create a fairer distribution of wealth, resource and liberty.

The whats, whys and hows are something that I am pragmatic about.

On this, I honestly was not sure what is best for the people of Scotland and was happy for them to decide based on the fact they have been thoroughly engaged with the process for 2 years and became a very well informed electorate.

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Originally Posted by ryanman

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by ryanman

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

When people are given a fair choice without threats, bribery and a constant Goebbels style media assault then people cannot complain so much. However, only one paper gave the Scots a pro voice, the BBC was biased, the politicians were abusive and threatening and what swung it was apparently a head bobbing Brown with a bunch of words written on the back of a packet of pork scratchings or was it a beermat? I couldn't tell with all of his slick moves running to and fro and was admittedly distracted by his unseemly satanic possession. Now, if you think that is a fair approach then good for you, but the people making these last minute promises are ALL known liars on serious issues.

I worry and with good reason. William Hague is apparently now in charge of leading these apparent changes. Does that fill you with confidence? Every bad event is an opportunity for these people and does anyone really think that the Lib/Lab/Con tag team is going to ever do anything positive for ordinary people? They are not going to let this opportunity go to waste. It is now going to be the common purpose devolution option which was always the plan. Occupation by stealth.

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Why didn't they just save the hassle and implement the requirement for a 2/3rds majority that is the norm for such votes around the world?

That would have been easier wouldn't it?

Cameron is a cunt for sure, but he isn't a master puppeteer.

I see nothing here other than a very fair referendum with a fair result.
The Scottish people are not likely to be duped by any of Cameron's crap - this was above party politics. Cameron will be gone next year.

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I cannot speak for the world, but in the UK we have referendums based on a majority and I like it that way. It would have been unacceptable to require 2/3rd's and I assume most people would regard that as draconian and unfair too.

Cameron is not a master puppeteer and that is why the entire parliamentary system is a hoax. Cameron may well be gone next year, but it will be next years model.

I cannot dispute the result other than being disappointed. I don't think it was a fair lead up and Brown looked like he was on ecstasy, but at least the voting process appears to have been well handled. I can understand old people having the fear too, but I want a system that gives something to the young other than draining them dry. It ain't happening with this system.

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I agree it would be draconian, but with lots of precedent.

Anyway, I certainly don't wish to see the present system conserved.
Fundamental reform is needed, not just in Britain but around the world.

My fundamental belief that underpins all my political thoughts is to create a fairer distribution of wealth, resource and liberty.

The whats, whys and hows are something that I am pragmatic about.

On this, I honestly was not sure what is best for the people of Scotland and was happy for them to decide based on the fact they have been thoroughly engaged with the process for 2 years and became a very well informed electorate.

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In Scotland there was a very high turnout of voters 85%, and democracy won the day and that's
how it should be,! but remember the Capital sucks the life blood out of the Country by attracting
talented people for all over the UK. What you have is one place generating wealth and prosperity
in one region, this is not good for other part of the UK, because you only have the attraction of London as the major power house.
You will never have a fair distribution of wealth, other City's round the UK need to be power houses
as well not just London from North to South and East and West, share wealth evenly around the
Country.

Westminster have just found out adrenaline is not brown and does not run down your leg,! there
arrogance and shear ignorance nearly cost them the Union, if you look at the vote per population
the NO vote won by a little under 4 hundred thousand votes.
Now the bull shit starts, more false promises there is a Election next year so , watch Cameron trying to sell his snake oil to the voters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ryanman

Any similar referendums held around the world almost always require a 2/3rds majority for the 'yes' to pass.
It is very democratic and unusual to only require a simple majority.
If this was set up for Yes to fail it would have just been a 2/3rd majority requirement like almost all precedents.

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Interesting Ryanman, you are thinking like a Constitionalist. Which I say as a compliment

Now can the English vote to see if we want to keep scotland and Wales and Northern island ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Now can the English vote to see if we want to keep scotland and Wales and Northern island ?

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Of course you can, there is a general election coming up and you can vote for those who wish to end the UK. And if you cannot wait that long, perhaps join a protest movement. There are lots of organizations who wish to see the end of the Union. Maybe joining IS is a way to go forward for you?