What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

There is a big difference when you are trying to coompare THIS..

http://www.josportsinc.com/item_images/1328371622.jpg

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/113395.gif

To this...

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0328...ones01_576.jpg

And especially to this!...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/166000...0_lewsi300.jpg

I'm sorry, but I don't need a crystal ball to predict that outcome.

Anyway, sure the closer eras are, the more it's blurred.

But 100 years is a significant time.

There is a fool proof way to know what the best eras are.

It's the current and the most recent ones (90's+ imo).

Because boxers getter better and stronger from generation to generation in general. Journeymen todat cheive their records by beating better and stronger bums than previously. Contenders today bet better and stronger journeymen. Champs today beat better and stronger contenders.

Past eras as far back as your referring to were RIDDLED with bums. These days the champs are disallowed to fight bums, only at the beginning of their careers before they become champs.

In Tunney's era and around that time, bum fights were sometimes considered world championships!

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Originally Posted by Max Power

There is a big difference when you are trying to coompare THIS..

http://www.josportsinc.com/item_images/1328371622.jpg

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/113395.gif

To this...

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0328...ones01_576.jpg

And especially to this!...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/166000...0_lewsi300.jpg

I'm sorry, but I don't need a crystal ball to predict that outcome.

Anyway, sure the closer eras are, the more it's blurred.

But 100 years is a significant time.

There is a fool proof way to know what the best eras are.

It's the current and the most recent ones (90's+ imo).

Because boxers getter better and stronger from generation to generation in general. Journeymen todat cheive their records by beating better and stronger bums than previously. Contenders today bet better and stronger journeymen. Champs today beat better and stronger contenders.

Past eras as far back as your referring to were RIDDLED with bums. These days the champs are disallowed to fight bums, only at the beginning of their careers before they become champs.

In Tunney's era and around that time, bum fights were sometimes considered world championships!

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And so you feel then that the Klitchskos have fought no bums?

So then I could take this to mean that all of the fighters who the Klitchkos fought were way better than anyone from the 1980s and back.

And Wladimir and Vitali would beat the mouthpieces off every HW 1980 and previous? Because they are bigger and taller? Remember now, the younger brother had to learn a system from E. Steward and before that he was getting dropped left and right. Without Emanuel Steward his height didn't get him very far. & Steward is (old) school.

Also remember back then they didn't wear 16oz gloves. Those guys were some tough hombres.

In theory I agree as time moves on, every sport produces a generation slightly better, but that is conjecture and seemingly flawed one a case by case basis.

Just follow me here- Today in football the average player is heavier, taller and stronger Agree?
Same with basketball.

Yet this is a fact if we choose to try me: Today guys who are more muscular have way friggin more injuries and are sidelined. Back in the day athletes didn't have trainers and conditioners who burn all that fat away, leaving muscle to rupture, tear.

Yesteryear those athletes had a special anger that starvation, depression brought about..it is an inner strength that you or I can't measure. They didn't do like Vitali did against Chris Byrd and quit...over a shoulder injury.


So back to boxing...a man like Jack Johnson may not be as big as today's HW, but he took shots with gloves that would be illegal today.

And I agree you don't need a crystal ball to predict the outcome...because it cant predicted. Or speculated, there we part ways. This conversation is purely subjective, be it 50 year difference 100 or last year. Only fighters who are upright and still breathing can we make predictions that come to fruition.
Everything else is purely speculative.
Nevertheless I respect a fight fan who sticks to their guns and you come out guns a blazing!
Might be shooting blanks though...:lickish:

Okay, I clicked on your links.

They're photos.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

And so you feel then that the Klitchskos have fought no bums?

So then I could take this to mean that all of the fighters who the Klitchkos fought were way better than anyone from the 1980s and back.

And Wladimir and Vitali would beat the mouthpieces off every HW 1980 and previous? Because they are bigger and taller? Remember now, the younger brother had to learn a system from E. Steward and before that he was getting dropped left and right. Without Emanuel Steward his height didn't get him very far. & Steward is (old) school.

Also remember back then they didn't wear 16oz gloves. Those guys were some tough hombres.

In theory I agree as time moves on, every sport produces a generation slightly better, but that is conjecture and seemingly flawed one a case by case basis.

Just follow me here- Today in football the average player is heavier, taller and stronger Agree?
Same with basketball.

Yet this is a fact if we choose to try me: Today guys who are more muscular have way friggin more injuries and are sidelined. Back in the day athletes didn't have trainers and conditioners who burn all that fat away, leaving muscle to rupture, tear.

Yesteryear those athletes had a special anger that starvation, depression brought about..it is an inner strength that you or I can't measure. They didn't do like Vitali did against Chris Byrd and quit...over a shoulder injury.


So back to boxing...a man like Jack Johnson may not be as big as today's HW, but he took shots with gloves that would be illegal today.

And I agree you don't need a crystal ball to predict the outcome...because it cant predicted. Or speculated, there we part ways. This conversation is purely subjective, be it 50 year difference 100 or last year. Only fighters who are upright and still breathing can we make predictions that come to fruition.
Everything else is purely speculative.
Nevertheless I respect a fight fan who sticks to their guns and you come out guns a blazing!
Might be shooting blanks though...:lickish:

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OF course the Klitschko's have fought bums, as does every boxer. The thing with Klitschko is that no other boxer has fought more quality opponents than Wladimir Klitschko at real HW! In fact even considering against previous eras (including sub200 opponents, Wladimir fares among the best in this case.)

I know many ppl CALL them bums, but they are really past present and future champs, unbeaten contenders, ultra slick athletes or giant towering boxers, all with great records and very hard punches.

Your quip regarding Wladimir getting knocked around left right and centre prior to the system Steward taught him is totally false! He had only been down a few times in his career and lost 2ce by stoppage. Only 1 of those times being relevant for Stewards system to HOLD when in trouble. Previous to that he knocked out nearly every single opponent except the one he gassed against which he beat the shit out of anyway!

Of course Wladimir could dominate all the 80's boxers, knock practically every one of them out and win nearly every round. LOOK at him! Mike Tyson is the only serious question mark here. And these days that's a less than even chance for old Mike.

Your comment regarding injuries today is very relevant and I agree totally. If you notice I have always championed the idea that fat is not detrimental to HW boxing which is why there ARE successful fat boxers in the first place. I fail to see how more injuries in any way worsens boxers chances though, if it was bad they wouldn't do it! Fighting every month like past times was FAR more deleterious to health and ability than bloody camps are!

Then you make comment analogous that past boxers were "mentally tougher", absolute rot that every old codger concocts. Boxers are boxers, they ALL have that heart and warrior spirit else they wouldn't be pro boxers. Boxers today are SMARTER if that's what you mean! Sure you can mention VK quitting vs Byrd but you THEN have to look on his performance with half his face off vs Lennox too!

Please indicate to me boxers like Byrd etc who, undersized fight high quality giant boxers regularly? Only Joe Louis ever beat mention worthy giants in the past!

Please indicate to me a boxer with the heart of Lamon Brewster for example who came forward in 2 fights to receive some of the most brutal thrashings (even in the fight he won) against WKlitshcko, ever dished out in a HW boxing match all time?

Besides, no amount of heart could allow most of those boxers to survive. It would simply get them knocked out even quicker.

It's evident today in how much boxing has changed at HW.

Past fights were a back and forth slugfest in which bravado was key.

Today we see tentative and carefully executed gameplay instead. There's a reason for that. In the past the punches were bareable. Even George Foreman took multiple shots aand KD's to put away over matched opponents. Now days everybody knows it only takes a single punch for a cold canvas KO.

To see what I mean watch the cautious styles here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy_LZ-jN1wA

Bottom line: the Klitschko's fought ALL comers, including black fighters. Take black fighters out of the mix and Wlad has ONE freak loss to Corrie Sanders (RIP) and Vitali is undefeated.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Bottom line: the Klitschko's fought ALL comers, including black fighters. Take black fighters out of the mix and Wlad has ONE freak loss to Corrie Sanders (RIP) and Vitali is undefeated.

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Yes, in fact you can take this further...

Wladimir Klitschko has fought in more countries than any HW except Ali.

Wladimir Klitschko has fought not only black boxers, but boxers of more nationalities than any other boxer.

He has faced the most diverse styles, shapes and sizes of any boxer.

And most importantly, he took on all good Southpaws as well which are the more difficult and dangerous opponents for orthodox fighters.

MAny champion boxers like Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis ducked all southpaws!

Again I say this and please digest - Other than size the vast majority modern heavyweight fighters have poor skill and technique. This is why Wlad is so dominate and even then he struggles to finish his opponents because of his suspect chin.

Holmes and Tyson wipe out Wlad.

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Originally Posted by Master

Again I say this and please digest - Other than size the vast majority modern heavyweight fighters have poor skill and technique. This is why Wlad is so dominate and even then he struggles to finish his opponents because of his suspect chin.

Holmes and Tyson wipe out Wlad.

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On the contrary, HW "defence" imo only became of utmost importance during the era of the superheavyweight.

The Klitschko's, Pulev, Thompson etc, utilise their height allied to their timing as there defence.

Shorter boxers like Stiverne, Haye etc are expert counter-punchers.

There are offence oriented boxers and tankers just as there are in every era too.

Nothing has been lost, everything has improved generally. Specifically, "DEFENSIVE" boxers today are more elusive than defensive boxers yesterday!

2 masters of escapology, Byrd and Chambers are unrivalled among HW's throughout time.

Technique? There are boxers with poorer technique as there are in all eras. The problem here is you compare average boxers today with guys like Holmes.

The correct comparison would be champ compared to champ, journeyman compared to journeyman etc. Then everything miraculously falls into place, today's boxers are much better!

I ain't gonna rip on Holmes too much because he was a great boxer but he isn't beating Wladimir, he would most likely be knocked out.

Tyson is a good question, he was certainly more skilled that most HW's of the Klitschko era and otherwise had other qualities to back himself up where he didn't. But again, Tyson IS a modern CHAMP.

What about the golden era...

Geroge Foreman- absolutely no defence or no technique, would be among the least skilled of all current HW's and most hittable.

Muhammad Ali- Total punch bag, almost WANTED to get hit, has also been described as having one of the most technically flawed styles ever. Basically won by out-staminizing his opponents (and being facially assisted).

Joe Frazier- Ate punches for breakfast, had no skills whatsoever, was partially BLIND, so he can be partially forgiven!

Sonny Liston- Highly uncoordinated, could not properly defend himself and was too slow to hit a modern boxer.

These were the CHAMPS of the past!

Wladimir is so dominant because he completely transformed boxing from a slug fest into a chess match. His opponents are some of the most dangerous competition of all time, and he dominates them because he is UNBELIEVABLY good. Helped out obviously because of his length, his weight and his conditioning.

As for his chin, WK has a strong chin! Obviously! Look at that head! He has the best HW record of all time against the hardest hitting opponents of all time and only 1ce in 66 fights ever been starched by anything that might be considered a chin check (which was a butt-fight anyway). And he has NEVER been cold canvassed KOed ever like say Lennox Lewis for example.

He has been knocked down multiple times (even in the fight he lost above) and got up to WIN, always finished a fight on his feet and taken some of the biggest bombs ever and shook them off.

He can be hurt, I never said he had an iron chin, but that's vs this era. You put that chin in any era pre80's and Wladimir Klitschko, has not only an iron chin.. But the strongest of ALL chins! That is a fact!

Just because you write a lot does not make you right.

Defence was only utilised by the fighters 2000? Have you heard yourself. You embarrass yourself with every post you make.

Holmes knocked out by Wlad how? With the excessive holding? He was rocked by a jab by Pulev.

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Originally Posted by Master

Just because you write a lot does not make you right.

Defence was only utilised by the fighters 2000? Have you heard yourself. You embarrass yourself with every post you make.

Holmes knocked out by Wlad how? With the excessive holding? He was rocked by a jab by Pulev.

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He was knocked back a bit by a Pulev jab.

Pulev, a 6'4" 240lb giant technical boxer with solid record, unbeaten and rich pedigree.

Gee that's bad!

You can only criticise Wladimir on a fight he dominated in against an opponent as good as which never existed in Holmes era (except maybe aforementioned Tyson).

Meanwhile Holmes was decisioned 2ce by an opponent who Wladimir would knock out with the first connected hard right hand or left hook. Gifted against Witherspoon who was no Pulev, wasted by Tyson, went balls to the wall with Norton who didn't even start to box until his 20's and got bloody knocked down by cruiser cruncher bum beater Shavers who'd never even land a punch on Klitschko let alone a damaging one.

I like Holmes but don't try to sell me he'd be a thrashing machine in the current era. The nature of his wins in his own era was sometimes not dominant and he never fought the kind of dangerous opponents that he'd have to now.

I only wrote a lot then because I tried to cover the relevant facts before you tried to find the flaws.

Of course boxers have defence prior to 2000. But the difference in boxing now to your times is evidently different. Look at the caution involved now by most fighters, instead of the dropped guard slug fests of yesteryear. It's clear it's today paramount. The Manswell Stiverne bout above is a nice little example.

You call it boring, and "fighting scared". I call it smart and I call it defensive minded. Harder punches, force higher defence. Because any fighter that doesn't have these qualities now in some form must either have an iron chin like none before, or they'd be knocked out well before we would even learn their name!

Wlad was rocked to the soles of his feet. You know it. He is fragile as Amir Khan. :)

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Originally Posted by Master

Wlad was rocked to the soles of his feet. You know it. He is fragile as Amir Khan. :)

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Far as I'm concerned that myth has been totally busted.

Again, LOOK at Pulev, he's massive with a technically great jab. OF course it's going to hurt. Did it gain anymore than disrupting Wlad's balance in any way? No!

So what the hell are you talking about!

Wlad's chin is highly questionable, but his boxing skill for a HW is about as good as it gets, much better than Tunney. Tunney didn't have the movement, range or the selection of punches that Wlad did.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Wlad's chin is highly questionable, but his boxing skill for a HW is about as good as it gets, much better than Tunney. Tunney didn't have the movement, range or the selection of punches that Wlad did.

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I'm not claiming he has an iron chin here. If Wladimir gets hit hard, he gets hurt. When you face such big opponents, that's not too shameful.

But he can and has taken many very hard punches over his career and won as well.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Wlad's chin is highly questionable, but his boxing skill for a HW is about as good as it gets, much better than Tunney. Tunney didn't have the movement, range or the selection of punches that Wlad did.

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I'm not claiming he has an iron chin here. If Wladimir gets hit hard, he gets hurt. When you face such big opponents, that's not too shameful.

But he can and has taken many very hard punches over his career and won as well.

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That was a jab. Wlad was wobbled by a jab. That is why he holds so much.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Wlad's chin is highly questionable, but his boxing skill for a HW is about as good as it gets, much better than Tunney. Tunney didn't have the movement, range or the selection of punches that Wlad did.

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I'm not claiming he has an iron chin here. If Wladimir gets hit hard, he gets hurt. When you face such big opponents, that's not too shameful.

But he can and has taken many very hard punches over his career and won as well.

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Hmmm you make an interesting point. Well said.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Wlad's chin is highly questionable, but his boxing skill for a HW is about as good as it gets, much better than Tunney. Tunney didn't have the movement, range or the selection of punches that Wlad did.

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I'm not claiming he has an iron chin here. If Wladimir gets hit hard, he gets hurt. When you face such big opponents, that's not too shameful.

But he can and has taken many very hard punches over his career and won as well.

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Hmmm you make an interesting point. Well said.

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A jab.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Wlad's chin is highly questionable, but his boxing skill for a HW is about as good as it gets, much better than Tunney. Tunney didn't have the movement, range or the selection of punches that Wlad did.

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I'm not claiming he has an iron chin here. If Wladimir gets hit hard, he gets hurt. When you face such big opponents, that's not too shameful.

But he can and has taken many very hard punches over his career and won as well.

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That was a jab. Wlad was wobbled by a jab. That is why he holds so much.

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Wladimir Klitschko when KOed by Sanders involved butts. He got up 3 times before being waved off and finished on his feet. The other losses were gasses in which he was never actually KOed anyway (KD's and then waved off).

He got up 3 times vs Peter a savage and feared puncher, like Earnie Shavers x3 and a couple other times against other opponents to, to WIN.

He has taken multiple bombs vs other boxers too, like Chagaev who slammed him with a big right after the bell which Wladimir took flush and undefended and shook off as if it was nothing. Pulev landed power punches too and Wladimir didn't drop. Povetkin, Wach,, Haye all landed good shots on him and he didn't drop.

Obviously the Pulev jab knocked him off balance, nothing more.

The day Wladimir gets knocked down by a jab I'll be here to hear I told you so!

Your rubbishing Klitschko in a fight he dominantly WON by savage KO and was never KDed in himself! Something is wrong with the picture? Biased!

You make this up as you go along.

Butts stops Wlad against Sanders? Nonsence.

Chagaev does not and never has thrown bombs.

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Originally Posted by Master

You make this up as you go along.

Butts stops Wlad against Sanders? Nonsence.

Chagaev does not and never has thrown bombs.

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Chagaev is still 225lbs and you can pull up YouTube clips of his power training. You want to tell me that Shavers, Frazier etc can punch hard, but discredit Chagaev's punch? I don't think so! First it's "anybody over 200lbs can knock anybody out" and now it's "225lb Chagaev can't punch"???

Samuel Peter didn't either ey?

Tony Thompson was able to breach Wladimir's defence many times and landed a lot of good shots to seemingly no effect. WATCH it!

I know that Wladimir has taken some big shots. Quite a few actually because he's had so many fights against so many punchers and I have seen all of his fights. You only THINK you know because of what you read on biased articles!

Again, I want to make it very clear that I don't claim Wladimir has an iron chin. But he DOES have a GOOD chin with respect to the current division. It is actually ridiculous to claim that the most dominant champ in history vs the heaviest and hardest hitting era can ACTUALLY have a glass jaw!

These 12 KD's he suffered actually occurred over only 6 fights and consecutively when they occurred. When Lennox Lewis got sparked out he was unable to get up at all! You cannot PENALISE Wladimir for GETTING UP several times when he is knocked down consecutively as if this is WORSE somehow than staying down!

Disregarding gas related and medical conditions and counting all 6 occasions as relevant chin issues, please name me ANY other boxer who comes CLOSE to having fought so many 200+ fights with so FEW incidence of being KD'd? There are NONE!

If you want to maintain that Klitschko is a glass jaw, fine, but you inadvertently admit that Klitschko has superior skills to anything else yet seen if you do.

The truth is in between, trust me!

One further thing. If Wladimir Klitschko decided to fight on in his 40's (which he wont) and put on some chub as many boxers do as they age, he would be able to take an even better punch no doubt!

The most athletic boxers sacrifice chin for speed and agility and workrate.

The toughest boxers sacrifice speed, agility and workrate for chin and resistance.

You can see this clearly throughout history, the athletic boxers got slaughtered when they lost and the chubbers survived more often than not.

If Wladimir Klitschko had decided instead to come in less than athletic during his career, you would be complaining instead how he ate too many cheeseburgers etc.

Wald is not the most dominate champion in its history, Joe Louis is.

How is this the most hardest hitting division in history?

Tony Thompson is not a puncher.

Lennox also got back up from his knock outs.

Why would I care if Wlad gets blubber on his body? You seem more obsessed about men’s bodies than I do.

You are digging a hole for yourself, stop digging.

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Originally Posted by Master

Wald is not the most dominate champion in its history, Joe Louis is.

How is this the most hardest hitting division in history?

Tony Thompson is not a puncher.

Lennox also got back up from his knock outs.

Why would I care if Wlad gets blubber on his body? You seem more obsessed about men’s bodies than I do.

You are digging a hole for yourself, stop digging.

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Joe Louis is ONLY the most dominant HW in history if you CALL 185lb title defences "HW".

By the modern definition, he was NOT really a HW for much of his career and most of his opponents were not really HW's either!

Plus, even in a world where weight doesn't matter, would Wladimir be allowed to defend against the same bums as Louis? Of course not!

This is why bums must be kicked off the record and only MEANINGFUL fights compared. Anybody can line up 20 bums or 20 cruisers, knock them all out and raise their stats to unheard of levels, we complain about it already with Deontay Wilder!

Thompson is not a puncher is a very relative position. His ratio isn't that special today! But he did KO some notable opponents and he is 250lbs with great timing.

If you calculated Thompson's nostalgic ratio, and put him back in the early days, American fans would claim today that "Wladimir Klitschko has never faced a power puncher like big Tony Thompson". ;) That is a fact!

Joe Louis was a heavyweight champion.

In 50 years time Wlad may be considered a cruiserweight but he still was heavyweight champion.

Stop trying to re-write history.

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Originally Posted by Master

Joe Louis was a heavyweight champion.

In 50 years time Wlad may be considered a cruiserweight but he still was heavyweight champion.

Stop trying to re-write history.

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Alright, let me make you a concession here...

Don't try to sell me on consecutive defences because they are meaningless, a loss is a loss and an upset an upset.

(as a side note the same thing applies to "X time Heavyweight champ", it's meaningless, basically meaning you LOST it X-1 times!

Don't try to sell me on "undisputed" because it is obviously harder to win and retain more than 1 belt.

Joe Louis is the most dominant HW champion still of all time to date ok.. Given the following criteria...

"Most successful title defences."

You do realise that Wladimir is basically set to overtake this anyway right.. In total. And when he does I will no longer make this concession.

In terms of a 200+ HW record, EVEN WITH BUMS (a win is a win), Wladimir has already surpassed it!

So really it comes down to what HW really means. I think that when the definition changes, it's irrelevant what things were called in the past.

If the speed limit changes from 60 to 50 km per hour, I hardly think the cop will care what the speed limit was yesterday let alone in 1930!

I don't think you can fairly COMPARE Joe Louis to Wladimir Klitschko in this way because they have absolutely NOTHING in common, except they were at one point in history, both CALLED Heavyweights!

It was definitely a jab

Dear god max is back i agree Wald kills Tunney i don't even know why some are trying to even say other wise even its just fucking stupid. Also Max come on dude Wald got knocked the fuck out by contenders from the 90's and his Brother got his faced smashed by a 38 year Lewis 90's is the best era by far in boxing more so then even the 70's. This era is better then a lot of eras i think the 80's had some good fighters hell Foreman and Holmes could hang with these guys but 60's and down there just no fucking way dude.

No one is saying Wlad would not beat Tunney but Max does not read and digest what i write in very simple plain language.

It is about skill, heart, stamina, chin, technique, power, being a champion, consistency, depth in quality the division all which is lacking now except Wlad. It has been dire for years!

(I an not going to mention if Wlad lived in those times he would not be as big or if Tunney was in this time he would have been bigger.)

The 70's when most people didn't really understand how dangerous boxing was to one's health. Just seeing what it's done to Ali, has been enough to keep many of the best athletes from pursuing a career in boxing. The risk reward is just too much. And then there are other factors were boxers are still exploited. Today, when we see a gifted athlete, he dominates.

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Originally Posted by fan johnny

The 70's when most people didn't really understand how dangerous boxing was to one's health. Just seeing what it's done to Ali, has been enough to keep many of the best athletes from pursuing a career in boxing. The risk reward is just too much. And then there are other factors were boxers are still exploited. Today, when we see a gifted athlete, he dominates.

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Muhammad Ali was unique in that he TRIED to get hit with punches. He never developed any reflexes and merely won (if you can call it that) by outstaminising his opponents!

Hardly any other boxers become so brain damaged as that today because they actively TRY NOT to get hit!

Perhaps we can thank Ali for the motivation for modern boxers to develop a defence! ;D

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Dear god max is back i agree Wald kills Tunney i don't even know why some are trying to even say other wise even its just fucking stupid. Also Max come on dude Wald got knocked the fuck out by contenders from the 90's and his Brother got his faced smashed by a 38 year Lewis 90's is the best era by far in boxing more so then even the 70's. This era is better then a lot of eras i think the 80's had some good fighters hell Foreman and Holmes could hang with these guys but 60's and down there just no fucking way dude.

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I do have a special connection with the 90's boxers too because grew up idolising them.

There is essentially no difference between then and now. The ONLY difference is the hyping up and the fame names. American media can make and break stars like no other.

I think Vitali, although the stoppage was warranted, proved he was better than Lewis in that fight (obviously so did Lewis think so, Vitali retired him!)

Wladimir had hardly any losses which serve to prove nothing.

Both Klitschko's would have dominated the 90's exactly the same. Most ppl know that.

As you know I think the 60's and 70's is probably the lowest point in HW boxing but I atleast like that you acknowledge at some point, ancient fighters become uncompetitive with modern ones. That's something!

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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Originally Posted by fan johnny

The 70's when most people didn't really understand how dangerous boxing was to one's health. Just seeing what it's done to Ali, has been enough to keep many of the best athletes from pursuing a career in boxing. The risk reward is just too much. And then there are other factors were boxers are still exploited. Today, when we see a gifted athlete, he dominates.

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Muhammad Ali was unique in that he TRIED to get hit with punches. He never developed any reflexes and merely won (if you can call it that) by outstaminising his opponents!

Hardly any other boxers become so brain damaged as that today because they actively TRY NOT to get hit!
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Perhaps we can thank Ali for the motivation for modern boxers to develop a defence! ;D

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Where did you get so enlightened an Ali's strategy in the ring? Do you mean the rope a dope? I have no idea what you mean when you say Ali never developed reflexes and just won? Can you elaborate so I might be more enlightened.

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Originally Posted by fan johnny

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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Originally Posted by fan johnny

The 70's when most people didn't really understand how dangerous boxing was to one's health. Just seeing what it's done to Ali, has been enough to keep many of the best athletes from pursuing a career in boxing. The risk reward is just too much. And then there are other factors were boxers are still exploited. Today, when we see a gifted athlete, he dominates.

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Muhammad Ali was unique in that he TRIED to get hit with punches. He never developed any reflexes and merely won (if you can call it that) by outstaminising his opponents!

Hardly any other boxers become so brain damaged as that today because they actively TRY NOT to get hit!
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Perhaps we can thank Ali for the motivation for modern boxers to develop a defence! ;D

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Where did you get so enlightened an Ali's strategy in the ring? Do you mean the rope a dope? I have no idea what you mean when you say Ali never developed reflexes and just won? Can you elaborate so I might be more enlightened.

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This is my analysis of Muhammad Ali...

I consider 2 versions..

Muhammad Ali I: Was very fast of hand and feet, was also longer than most of his opponents. He had, as always, great stamina. This Ali was CHINNY (and obviously looked it).

This Clay/Ali performed a "merry-go-round" of his opponents where he was always out of range so his opponents couldn't hit him. But most of the time he couldn't hit his opponents either. He darted in to land his own shots and then get immediately out of range. He avoided much punishment in his first career this way, because he speed, allied to his length advantage enabled him to play tag.

However, you can already see that this Clay/Ali, when he remained for anytime in punching range of his opponents, was hit even by the SLOWEST of punches! Break out the old black and whites and have a good look again, but this time with a critical eye and forget about all the myths you've been fed.

Clay was decked by 185lb Cooper a straight up light HW and a straight up BUM (see record). No HW boxer today would ever be decked (and basically KOed) by a guy like that!

Muhammad Ali II: This Ali was strong for the era, he had a harder chin, even an iron chin for the criteria of the day. And he had great stamina as always. This Ali was still one of the tallest boxers but was no longer particularly tall. And this Ali had lost his foot speed and most of his handspeed. He had become a slow, plodding overweight. His new tactic was basically landing some wind maker shots and then wrestling and fouling.

Because he no longer had his speed, the truth about Ali's reflexes was totally exposed, he had none! Because earlier, he never had any need to develop any!

What followed is probably one of the most disgraceful careers recorded. Being smashed from pillar to post in nearly all of his fights.

I hope I was thorough enough.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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Originally Posted by fan johnny

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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Originally Posted by fan johnny

The 70's when most people didn't really understand how dangerous boxing was to one's health. Just seeing what it's done to Ali, has been enough to keep many of the best athletes from pursuing a career in boxing. The risk reward is just too much. And then there are other factors were boxers are still exploited. Today, when we see a gifted athlete, he dominates.

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Muhammad Ali was unique in that he TRIED to get hit with punches. He never developed any reflexes and merely won (if you can call it that) by outstaminising his opponents!

Hardly any other boxers become so brain damaged as that today because they actively TRY NOT to get hit!
8
Perhaps we can thank Ali for the motivation for modern boxers to develop a defence! ;D

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Where did you get so enlightened an Ali's strategy in the ring? Do you mean the rope a dope? I have no idea what you mean when you say Ali never developed reflexes and just won? Can you elaborate so I might be more enlightened.

---

This is my analysis of Muhammad Ali...

I consider 2 versions..

Muhammad Ali I: Was very fast of hand and feet, was also longer than most of his opponents. He had, as always, great stamina. This Ali was CHINNY (and obviously looked it).

This Clay/Ali performed a "merry-go-round" of his opponents where he was always out of range so his opponents couldn't hit him. But most of the time he couldn't hit his opponents either. He darted in to land his own shots and then get immediately out of range. He avoided much punishment in his first career this way, because he speed, allied to his length advantage enabled him to play tag.

However, you can already see that this Clay/Ali, when he remained for anytime in punching range of his opponents, was hit even by the SLOWEST of punches! Break out the old black and whites and have a good look again, but this time with a critical eye and forget about all the myths you've been fed.

Clay was decked by 185lb Cooper a straight up light HW and a straight up BUM (see record). No HW boxer today would ever be decked (and basically KOed) by a guy like that!

Muhammad Ali II: This Ali was strong for the era, he had a harder chin, even an iron chin for the criteria of the day. And he had great stamina as always. This Ali was still one of the tallest boxers but was no longer particularly tall. And this Ali had lost his foot speed and most of his handspeed. He had become a slow, plodding overweight. His new tactic was basically landing some wind maker shots and then wrestling and fouling.

Because he no longer had his speed, the truth about Ali's reflexes was totally exposed, he had none! Because earlier, he never had any need to develop any!

What followed is probably one of the most disgraceful careers recorded. Being smashed from pillar to post in nearly all of his fights.

I hope I was thorough enough.

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You're joking...

I wish he was joking but he is deadly serious.

Even though a old Lennox smashed Vitali and cause that huge cut he still thinks the Klits can dominate the 90's.

Beyond idiotic.

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Originally Posted by Master

I wish he was joking but he is deadly serious.

Even though a old Lennox smashed Vitali and cause that huge cut he still thinks the Klits can dominate the 90's.

Beyond idiotic.

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But Lennox did not smash Vitali.

He managed to open him up with swiping shots (because Vitali had him constantly off balance). The chances of Lennox ever managing to repeat that fortunate outcome were little to none.

Despite the cuts, Vitali delivered a flogging to Lennox, as witnessed by the entire crowd who cheered for Vitali and booed Lennox. As witnessed by the entire HBO crew who agreed there had to be a rematch. As forced upon Lennox by Merchant. As obviated by Lennox who retired after witnessing the subsequent destruction of Kirk Johnson in 2 rounds.

If ever there was a fight a fighter LOST in yet proved he was better, this was the fight!

And I AGREE that the fight had to be stopped mind you. Lennox DID get the win. I don't see how VK could have finished the fight.

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Originally Posted by fan johnny

You're joking...

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Either you haven't SEEN Muhammad's fights, or you've never bothered to properly analyse them.

Farcial events occurred in Ali's fights from the start of career, right through to the end, I can make an entire list of occurances for you to check if you like.

And I almost forgot..

One of the reasons Muhammad was such a champ in the 60's/70's was because we OUTWEIGHED 70% of his opponents (and Foreman a whopping 90%!)

With a median opponent weight of 200lbs flat, that is pathetic when viewed against the modern eras!

As far as HW boxing goes, the fun started with Mike Tyson and continues to this very day.

All previous eras are basically unwatchable except for educational purposes.

Don't get me wrong, I can APPRECIATE those times boxing. But I'd never make an outrageous claim like that was BETTER!

Take away Ali's, height and weight advantage, paint him white, and you basically have JERRY QUARRY! Fact! They were stylistically similar!

Max - Lennox was old and at the end of his career and he still beat Vitali. A peak Lennox would destroy him. Get over it.

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Originally Posted by Master

Max - Lennox was old and at the end of his career and he still beat Vitali. A peak Lennox would destroy him. Get over it.

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Possibly so. I wont fight you on that any further, suffice to say this is how I see it..

A PRE-PRIME Vitali, lost (under unusual circumstances) to a NEAR-PRIME Lennox!

The very best Lennox was only a year and a half prior, vs Rahman II imo.

Vitali continued to get better and better for many years after.

Basically I see Vitali lost to one of the HEAVIEST and THE MOST EXPERIENCED version of Lewis there ever was!

In fact I think there is good chances that if a lighter and more athletic version of Lewis was in that fight, he would have been stopped in 2 rounds by Vitali.

I don't really know who was the better boxer because there are no landslide stats here for me to pull out my ass, but I suspect Vits was overall maybe just a bit better.

Just my opinion and I note, entirely subjective this time round.

This is where you make the mistake. Heavier is not better. Lennox was not at his best weight which would have been lighter.

Vitali did not improve technically that much. He always had that robotic style and like any good big brother had to bail out his younger brother when in trouble.

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Originally Posted by Master

This is where you make the mistake. Heavier is not better. Lennox was not at his best weight which would have been lighter.

Vitali did not improve technically that much. He always had that robotic style and like any good big brother had to bail out his younger brother when in trouble.

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That last part about bailing out little brother, even if it were true, does not make Vitali's case any worse here.

Being out of shape is a disadvantage.

Being heavier is an advantage.

Of course, they often do (and in this case I agree probably did go hand in hand).

So although Lennox might have been a little slower and had a little less stamina, he theoretically would have been able to sap the stamina of VK quicker through weight. He might have had a little more thud on his punches, he DEFINITELY could take a better punch with it. So while some attributes may be worse, some may benefit.

First thing to consider is that Lennox was only 5 bloody lbs over his optimum weight! On a 250lb man this is jack shit! So REALLY we are discussing something extremely petty anyway. Lennox claimed he was in great shape and he did not look anything so soft to me which would have made any real difference to his speed and stamina.

And then I turn to the fight. Lennox was just as fast as he always was at his high 240's anyway.

I will give you that he DID seem to gas earlier than usual, but then again, in all his 43 previous fights he never had another 250lb man pushing the pace on him and smacking him around like a piniata either!

38 years old is not old at all for a modern professional HW boxer, especially with Lewis's style so let's not try to pretend he was too old either! Neither is a 1 year lay off a hinderence these days in a prepared boxer.