Also you forgot Cotto i mean i think he pretty good fighter to be added. I also think Callozo was also a champ as well was he not.
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Also you forgot Cotto i mean i think he pretty good fighter to be added. I also think Callozo was also a champ as well was he not.
Jesus christ how the hell could i forget those names ? its because i've been out most of the day and its really late here im tired, but yes with those 2 names on the resume Mosley could well take it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Yea but mosley was not Prime in Vargas fights or Maygoy i mean he was 37 in that fight they were both past there best so like same with Hopkins.
I dont know ICB,Jones had that olympic/Amatuer pedigree (I do not believe that translates fully to the pro's but its experience) and was riding huge spotlight features on HBO,Hopkins was plodding along on BET cards and never in the big time until then.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBRoy Jones Jr was more green than Bernard Hopkins so thats not a valid excuse, James Toney was a top 3 P4P fighter and always had weight problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Well Hopkins did have his fair share of prison boxing fights Spicoli ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsI dont know ICB,Jones had that olympic/Amatuer pedigree (I do not believe that translates fully to the pro's but its experience) and was riding huge spotlight features on HBO,Hopkins was plodding along on BET cards and never in the big time until then.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBRoy Jones Jr was more green than Bernard Hopkins so thats not a valid excuse, James Toney was a top 3 P4P fighter and always had weight problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
I never doubted him. In fact I was attacked on here for saying that he had the potential to be the best p4p fighter in the world. I still see him getting beat off Williams and maybe Margarito at the moment but I think he will overtake them within the next 2 years. His fast hands and good punch power have always been evident but now he is certainly becoming far better in his defence and is showing huge improvement in each fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Fine, we can I agree to disagree, but I'm glad you had the intelligence to really look at it. I would also add that Mosley jumped up 2 divisions to make the big fights with Oscar and Vernon, much bigger, more challenging fight than Stevie Johnson and Paul Spadafora. I actual would have liked to see Mosley fight at 140 and take on Kostya, and That would have been a challenge and a great fight. But I'll give it to you, he probably should have fought Stevie Johnson, but Spadafora hadn't really earned a shot by the time Mosley moved up. It's also funny that "past it Vargas" is natural LWM and 6 years younger, with 20 few fights, and he was coming off good wins over Joval and Castillejo. Past it Mayorga is 2 years younger and much bigger man. It must say something about Shane that younger fighters are past it, but he's still giving young lions like Cotto all they can handle, even with him being past it. His "past it" version seems has certainly held up pretty well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI did give Shane Mosley credit for the Leija win bro thats why i listed him. As for who Shane Mosley could of fought.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanNo he doesn't. I gave you that Jones's LHW resume is better than Shane's LW, but you can't say he wins comfortably on a career, especially in light of his very close loss to Cotto and his whipping a much larger Mayorga. Jones beat up on a lot of B to B+ fighters, but he avoided the best. Shane fought the best. Funny, you give Shane no credit for the Leija win (because he was past it, you say), but you list Reggie Johnson (past his best) and Mike McCallum (past his best, above his natural weight) as pluses in Roy's favor.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Above LW, Shane fought the following: Oscar 2x, Forrest 2x, Winky 2x, Vargas 2x, Collazo, Mayorga, Cotto, and behind that top group, Wilfredo Rivera and Shannon Taylor. If you are going to credit Jones with Reggie Johnson, you better credit Shane with Leija. Can you name a guy that makes you think, wow, I wish Shane would have found a way to make the fight happen!! He has always made great matchups. Jones digs up a retired Tito Trinidad, fights the one of the worst HW beltholders in recent memory, fights guys like McCallum and Reggie Johnson who are past their best. Wastes his time on a bum of the month club when he should have been rematching Toney or Hopkins, or making it happen against Benn, Eubank, or Calzaghe.
I rank Jones above Mosley all-time, p4p, but Shane fought tougher competition, as a whole career. Roy is the better fighter, but Shane is the better man.
Well Stevie Johnston, Paul Spadaforda, Kostya Tszyu, Antonio Margarito, Felix Trinidad, are a few that come to mind.
And if we are comparing the overall record are we just basing it on best wins, or the best fighters they fought ? i'll assume you meaning comparing just the best fighters they fought well in that case.
Roy Jones
Mike McCallum = shot
Montel Griffin x2
James Toney
Bernard Hopkins
Antonio Tarver x3
Eric Harding
Glen Johnson
Virgil Hill
Reggie Johnson = shot
Felix Trinidad = shot
Shane Mosley
Winky Wright x2
Vernon Forrest x2
Ricardo Mayorga = shot
ODLH x2
Fernado Vargas x2 = shot
John John Molina = shot
Jesse James Leija = shot
Philip Holiday
Wilfredo Rivera = Unsure of but for certain past his prime.
Miguel Cotto
Luis Collazo
To be honest i have to admit that is closer than i thought it would, actually looking at it as a whole like this, but i still think Jones edges it. Considering half Mosley's best opposition there were shot fighters.
Jones left bigger fights behind at 168 to fight old Mik McCallum, Montell Griffin, and Virgil Hill when he could have been fighting Joe Calzaghe, and he was wasting early SMW career on Byrd, Vinnie Paz, Eric Lucas, and Bryan Bannon. In may of 1995, he was the #1 SMW in the world, followed by Benn Eubank and Liles. Roy fights old Vinnie Paz, who peaked at 135. Roy is still #1 next year, 1996, followed by Benn and Steve Collins. Roy fights Bannon and Lucas. Come on. He fought journeymen rather than put is big ego related financial demands aside and gone overseas to fight the best. Plenty of American fighters have traveled if they needed to do it to make the best fights happen.
Mosley could have fought Johnson, but he at least he moved up moved up and fought good fighters.
Taeth, the Toney win is more than Shane ever did at lightweight, but I would consider beating Oscar 2x to equal accomplishment to beating Toney. It would have a hard time ranking Toney much higher than ODLH on an all-time p4p list. At the very least, they are pretty close.
I like Berto but he really needs to step up the level of opponents.
Collazo would be a good fight for us to judge how good he really is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Agreed... I'm just sick of seeing Collazo. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTONQuote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Agreed... I'm just sick of seeing Collazo. :rolleyes:
I guess Don King still has it ;D
LOL, I'm sure alot of people are sick of him...Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTONQuote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Agreed... I'm just sick of seeing Collazo. :rolleyes:
I guess Don King still has it ;D
Although his record is good and fights decently to good against top flight comp... nevermind was a world champ, he really has just become a gate keeper of sorts. Hatto, Mosley and just viewed as a test for Berto.
Not sure your being as funny as you think,Hopkins was Prison Champ,and there are some guys in Graterford who would eat Mike Tysons babiesQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBWell Hopkins did have his fair share of prison boxing fights Spicoli ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsI dont know ICB,Jones had that olympic/Amatuer pedigree (I do not believe that translates fully to the pro's but its experience) and was riding huge spotlight features on HBO,Hopkins was plodding along on BET cards and never in the big time until then.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Well i got to say Shane wins to me are just as impressive as Jones. I mean he jumped up to beat Oscar and then jump up to fight him again. The secound was not a clear cut win for Shane as the first but still close go either way and still got the win for it so. I would say that Shanes to wins over a prime Oscar and jumping divsions to fight him is better then Hopkins who at the time was not the force of Oscar and Toney was not either i think for me those are wins that made there careers.
Ahhhh... TM, that's why I love you... ;D Well playedQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyNot sure your being as funny as you think,Hopkins was Prison Champ,and there are some guys in Graterford who would eat Mike Tysons babiesQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBWell Hopkins did have his fair share of prison boxing fights Spicoli ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins
....and his graveyard teeth :cwm25:Quote:
Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTON
Berto might be decent but I don't think he's a top level fighter just because he beat Steve Forbes.