Capitalism

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Are you seriously questioning my Infallibility? How well does that always work out for you?

I've already shown you at least once why I'm right, using facts and evidence. You know the one time in history when the top 1% of Americans' share of the wealth was this high previously? Just before the 1929 Depression, something we still stand a chance of repeating currently. The median wage in America has stayed effectively static since 1980 and the US consumer, 71% of US GDP, is now tapped out. Both parents in families now work, both work much longer and harder, both have gone into debt over the past few years just to pay the bills, and now the US consumer doesn't have any money anymore. The 1980-2008 redistribution of wealth to the wealthy has to be reversed othersie 71% of US GDP is going stand still and worse. If you're going to reply to what I have Written do so using facts and evidence only.

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Kirkland, oh I totally agree, let's raid the accounts of Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and all those other evil rich people and then hand out money to everyone who haven't earned it and who don't deserve it. :rolleyes:

The War on Poverty failed horribly....it tried to redistribute wealth as many Democrat programs have tried before but if those programs had worked then we wouldn't be listening to Barrack or you crying foul right now.

Wealth is not a right, it's a goal plenty of people have, and it's achieveable here in America but it is not a right for everyone to be wealthy.

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As usual you swallow every bit of GOP propaganda whole. Obama isn't redistributing wealth, he's changing the marginal income tax rate from 36 to 39%, something McCain agreed with Obama on until he was forced to pander to the dumbass wing of the GOP for their votes. Under Eiserhower the marginal rate was 90% so Eisenhower must have been a socialist, right?


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=d8EyGpOU3qM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X2JPbQ...eature=related

What Obama is doing is reversing the redistribution of wealth that's happened since Reagan, where a huge tax cut for top earners was paid for by raising taxes on low and middle earners, slightly reversed under Clinton but then ramped up again by Chimpy. But a big tax cur for low/middle income earners in now necessary because too much money is being redistributed up to the top 1% and it's screwing up the economy.


Remember a year or so ago you were claiming that raising taxes on high earners would backfire and redistribute wealth and I told you that you'd soon see the biggest redistribution of wealth in history as bankers lined up for a bailout? I should try and find that and see what I Wrote back then.

In the meantime here's the well-known socialist Warren Buffett's take on this. Buffett is supporting Obama in this election too, as is the Communist Bill Gates :


Mr. Buffett compiled a data sheet of the men and women who work in his office. He had each of them make a fraction; the numerator was how much they paid in federal income tax and in payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare, and the denominator was their taxable income. The people in his office were mostly secretaries and clerks, though not all.
It turned out that Mr. Buffett, with immense income from dividends and capital gains, paid far, far less as a fraction of his income than the secretaries or the clerks or anyone else in his office. Further, in conversation it came up that Mr. Buffett doesn’t use any tax planning at all. He just pays as the Internal Revenue Code requires. “How can this be fair?” he asked of how little he pays relative to his employees. “How can this be right?”
Even though I agreed with him, I warned that whenever someone tried to raise the issue, he or she was accused of fomenting class warfare.
“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

In Class Warfare, Guess Which Class Is Winning - New York Times

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Trainer nobody forces those people to mine coal...get over it. No one holds a gun to their head and says "You HAVE to do this" and to suggest otherwise is moronic. I work for a millionaire, he was a mill worker (a worker not an owner), his dad was a mill worker (a worker not an owner, not a manager, just a worker) in one of the poorest parts of North Carolina, he paid for his own education, he earned his money and he achieved....because of government? because of wealth redistribution? NO it's because he got the idea in his head that he could be more and he went out and worked everyday towards his goal and he has achieved....the only people that stop those poor miners from being something else are themselves and that is the 100% God's honest truth.

Healthcare isn't a RIGHT it's a privilege, however health insurance does need fixing and I have gone over that plenty of times before....The education system needs lots of fixing to be competitive as well.

killersheep the market will fix the problem the government caused

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Yeah,starving to death is a WAY better solution

Ooooh, I really am Infallible :

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...7-post174.html

:)

First off, there is no absolutely free economy, and likewise, no absolutely controlled economy. So the answer is quite simple. Just find the right balance. Obviously, the American economy as it stands now has been proven - and fortunately they are starting to admit that - to be excessively on the free side. Any system that allows people to crowd together and make a collective decision without much regulation is doomed to fail simply because humans act just like animals when herded together. The frenzied herd action is what primarily caused the chaos today - the bulls of yesterday has turned into the bears of today. So again, the key to it all is to find just the right balance, and fortunately, I think that's what the economic honchos would be doing in the next several years.

But don't be easily misled into believing that just re-distributing all the goods equally will solve the problem. The mega-billionaires are there for a reason. First, if you simply distribute all the money of Gates, Buffets, Waltons etc., equally among the ordinary folks like you and me, most of those money will go into consumption and only few left for saving (or investment). Everyone who knows Economics knows that that is not a good idea because it'll send the economy running havoc. But keep these money in relatively few hands, most of it will be plowed back into productive business activities. So again, it's the right balance that's important, not simply just re-distribution. Definitely, I think that the system today favors the rich folks just a bit too much as against the ordinary ones. I think just a little bit more of re-distribution will spur consumption, which is the biggest part of GNP, and will thereby encourage economic growth...

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Trainer nobody forces those people to mine coal...get over it. No one holds a gun to their head and says "You HAVE to do this" and to suggest otherwise is moronic. I work for a millionaire, he was a mill worker (a worker not an owner), his dad was a mill worker (a worker not an owner, not a manager, just a worker) in one of the poorest parts of North Carolina, he paid for his own education, he earned his money and he achieved....because of government? because of wealth redistribution? NO it's because he got the idea in his head that he could be more and he went out and worked everyday towards his goal and he has achieved....the only people that stop those poor miners from being something else are themselves and that is the 100% God's honest truth.

Healthcare isn't a RIGHT it's a privilege, however health insurance does need fixing and I have gone over that plenty of times before....The education system needs lots of fixing to be competitive as well.

killersheep the market will fix the problem the government caused

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Lyle I think we need to get on the same page here. So for starters let's begin with this question.
How did the government cause the current financial climate?

Killersheep, both parties worked to achieve certain goals and the ways which they tried to achieve them ended up hurting plenty of people. The Community Reinvestment Act (Jimmy Carter), the regulatory changes made to that act(Bill Clinton, Sen. Dodd, Sen. Frank, Sen. Schumer), and George W. Bush's deregulation and companies taking advantage of the money handed out by Fannie and Freddie and their own greed from making commissions on loans all add up to one big problem for us.

There is a saying which is relevant to this crisis "Success has a thousand fathers and failure is an orphan"

Kirkland I have heard that from Mr. Buffett before and I knew that about Eisenhower as well. I still support The Fair Tax a tax that James Madison said would be the most just way to tax the populus. I also disagree with raising taxes not because I don't rich people taxed, not because I don't want to pay taxes, but because we spend too much as it is and when they fix the spending then they can raise the taxes. But I know your views on the Fair Tax and I'm sure you'll go ahead and spout off whatever you want to about it but that's what I support because it's fair and you can hold your politicians more accountable.

Trainer, I don't look down my nose at anyone, those guys who work hard in those mines provide for us, they are an integral part of society but if they didn't get paid enough then nobody would do that job. Also there are other places to work not just other cities but other jobs in general there has to be stores and shops where these guys live, there has to be restaurants, bars, just other places to work. And even if there wasn't people can save and then go and achieve their own personal goals away from mining. Working toward your personal goals isn't easy and part of that hard work makes achieving those goals more satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Killersheep, both parties worked to achieve certain goals and the ways which they tried to achieve them ended up hurting plenty of people. The Community Reinvestment Act (Jimmy Carter), the regulatory changes made to that act(Bill Clinton, Sen. Dodd, Sen. Frank, Sen. Schumer), and George W. Bush's deregulation and companies taking advantage of the money handed out by Fannie and Freddie and their own greed from making commissions on loans all add up to one big problem for us.

There is a saying which is relevant to this crisis "Success has a thousand fathers and failure is an orphan"

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So you are saying that the Community Reinvestment Act caused predatory lending?

And Bush's deregulation and companies taking advantage of the commision from the loans of Fannie and Freddie are the reasons that the government caused the current economic climate?

I'm just doing my job as a liberal to try to understand your view here.

The plain version of Carter's Act didn't cause all of this by itself but it lead to the end result....when the Clinton's wanted to penalize banks for NOT giving out more sub-prime loans COULD have something to do with how things got out of hand

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Originally Posted by Lyle

The plain version of Carter's Act didn't cause all of this by itself but it lead to the end result....when the Clinton's wanted to penalize banks for NOT giving out more sub-prime loans COULD have something to do with how things got out of hand

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Sub-prime loans are definately an issue, but would you agree that the interest rates and terms issued by corporations that don't fall under even Clinton's revisions hold equal share of the blame?

Intrest rates don't bother me, people should know what they can and cannot afford....both parties (Republicans, Democrats, Lenders, Borrowers) are in the wrong and therefore they all deserve blame.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Intrest rates don't bother me, people should know what they can and cannot afford....both parties (Republicans, Democrats, Lenders, Borrowers) are in the wrong and therefore they all deserve blame.

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So the argument you originally provided now reads

The free market will fix the problems Republicans, Democrats, Lenders and Borrowers created.

My question is how will the free market fix the problems Republicans, Democrats, Lenders and Borrowers created?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Killersheep, both parties worked to achieve certain goals and the ways which they tried to achieve them ended up hurting plenty of people. The Community Reinvestment Act (Jimmy Carter), the regulatory changes made to that act(Bill Clinton, Sen. Dodd, Sen. Frank, Sen. Schumer), and George W. Bush's deregulation and companies taking advantage of the money handed out by Fannie and Freddie and their own greed from making commissions on loans all add up to one big problem for us.

There is a saying which is relevant to this crisis "Success has a thousand fathers and failure is an orphan"

Kirkland I have heard that from Mr. Buffett before and I knew that about Eisenhower as well. I still support The Fair Tax a tax that James Madison said would be the most just way to tax the populus. I also disagree with raising taxes not because I don't rich people taxed, not because I don't want to pay taxes, but because we spend too much as it is and when they fix the spending then they can raise the taxes. But I know your views on the Fair Tax and I'm sure you'll go ahead and spout off whatever you want to about it but that's what I support because it's fair and you can hold your politicians more accountable.

Trainer, I don't look down my nose at anyone, those guys who work hard in those mines provide for us, they are an integral part of society but if they didn't get paid enough then nobody would do that job. Also there are other places to work not just other cities but other jobs in general there has to be stores and shops where these guys live, there has to be restaurants, bars, just other places to work. And even if there wasn't people can save and then go and achieve their own personal goals away from mining. Working toward your personal goals isn't easy and part of that hard work makes achieving those goals more satisfying.

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The Bush tax cuts have caused such a drastic collapse of tax revenues that wiaitng to get spending unde control -- something you shouldn't hold your breath for -- isn't an option. Revenues have to go up soon to stop the deficit getting to the stage where foreign creditors stop funding the US. If that happens the current crisis will look like a tea party. The added benefit of raising taxes on the wealthy will be to get the economy moving again. So it's a win-win.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

The plain version of Carter's Act didn't cause all of this by itself but it lead to the end result....when the Clinton's wanted to penalize banks for NOT giving out more sub-prime loans COULD have something to do with how things got out of hand

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Again, Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter have nothing to do with the subprime meltdown. Clinton or Carter did not force one single unregulated loan to be made. Neither do Fannie or Freddie have any blame in this. The entire mess was caused by the GOP abandoning oversight and regulation of the mortgage and financial industries from 2002 onwards. Every loan that went bad was a loan made after 2002 with zero regulation.

Well the market has already lowered prices on houses, it has already weeded out most of the bad loans, people are out of their homes they couldn't afford and people are out of jobs they abused. Once there is an upturn in the economy which could be in a year, could be sooner people will be ready to buy those houses, hell people are already ready to buy those houses to sell later and make profit on.


Government will of course regulate (too late) but what it really needs is to have and use oversight which it had the opportunity to do before the shit hit the fan (with OFEO an oversight committee created to look over Freddie Mac) but certain politicians blocked the oversight of Fannie and Freddie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL36nwCSYUM



and Sarbanes-Oxley is bad for us

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Well the market has already lowered prices on houses, it has already weeded out most of the bad loans, people are out of their homes they couldn't afford and people are out of jobs they abused. Once there is an upturn in the economy which could be in a year, could be sooner people will be ready to buy those houses, hell people are already ready to buy those houses to sell later and make profit on.


Government will of course regulate (too late) but what it really needs is to have and use oversight which it had the opportunity to do before the shit hit the fan (with OFEO an oversight committee created to look over Freddie Mac) but certain politicians blocked the oversight of Fannie and Freddie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL36nwCSYUM

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So the free market is fixing the problem by reducing home prices?
I also don't understand what you mean by "weeded out most of the bad loans".
I am trying to wrap my head around this, if unemployment continues to rise what does it matter if homes are cheaper?