What country has produced the best all around fighters during the past 60 years?

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Sir Valentine

Okay lets not complicate the topic with per capita non sense and other absord stuff. the answer is simply the U.S.A and MEXICO / MEXICO and U.S.A. which means both of these countries traditionally have had the best boxing schools. both of these two countries have produced the most champions have developed the best boxing techniques have had the best and most knowledgeble trainers. most big pay-perview events are controlled by American and Mexican fighters. sure you get other great fighters from different nationalities in these pay-per view events but the but the numbers don't lie. these two great boxing/fighting countries dominate the numbers in champions/quality of champions/pay-perview sells you name it they own it past and present future we will see. dont get me wrong i enjoy fighters from all over the world but the numbers are real you cant deny it.:)

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"Per capita nonsense"? Really brilliant there, bud. Some people choose to call "nonsense" that which they do not understand. So I'll try to go slower.

You can measure numbers in absolute terms, or you can compare them using common denominators. It's like income... income is commonly measured "per capita", because it's a more clear measure of the wealth or lack thereof of a country's inhabitants.

So if you compare in absolute terms, yes... the U.S. and Mexico have the largest number of world champions (425 and 108, respectively). But when you figure their respective populations (apx 305 million and 108 million, respectively), it comes out to about 1.4 champs per million people for the U.S., and about 1.0 champs per million people for Mexico. By contrast, Puerto Rico has 40 world champs and a population of roughly 4 million people, yielding a rate of about 10.0 champs per million people.

If it helps, I'll take you through the arithmetic.

;)

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Tito Im sure you know this one, in the rivalry between Mexico and P.R. whats the score? I dont know the answer so I'm not trying be a dick.

As far as the Per Capita argument, I dont think you are "complicating it" but you are disecting the question to win the argument, if we break it down more and more we we can figure a way to get every country coming out on top. One may be tge best per capita, one by overall greatness of champions, one by number of names in an atg p4p list. As much as we would like to have the country we support/are from to have the best it just does'nt happen for everyone.

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Originally Posted by OnixAA

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Sir Valentine

Okay lets not complicate the topic with per capita non sense and other absord stuff. the answer is simply the U.S.A and MEXICO / MEXICO and U.S.A. which means both of these countries traditionally have had the best boxing schools. both of these two countries have produced the most champions have developed the best boxing techniques have had the best and most knowledgeble trainers. most big pay-perview events are controlled by American and Mexican fighters. sure you get other great fighters from different nationalities in these pay-per view events but the but the numbers don't lie. these two great boxing/fighting countries dominate the numbers in champions/quality of champions/pay-perview sells you name it they own it past and present future we will see. dont get me wrong i enjoy fighters from all over the world but the numbers are real you cant deny it.:)

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"Per capita nonsense"? Really brilliant there, bud. Some people choose to call "nonsense" that which they do not understand. So I'll try to go slower.

You can measure numbers in absolute terms, or you can compare them using common denominators. It's like income... income is commonly measured "per capita", because it's a more clear measure of the wealth or lack thereof of a country's inhabitants.

So if you compare in absolute terms, yes... the U.S. and Mexico have the largest number of world champions (425 and 108, respectively). But when you figure their respective populations (apx 305 million and 108 million, respectively), it comes out to about 1.4 champs per million people for the U.S., and about 1.0 champs per million people for Mexico. By contrast, Puerto Rico has 40 world champs and a population of roughly 4 million people, yielding a rate of about 10.0 champs per million people.

If it helps, I'll take you through the arithmetic.

;)

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Tito Im sure you know this one, in the rivalry between Mexico and P.R. whats the score? I dont know the answer so I'm not trying be a dick.

As far as the Per Capita argument, I dont think you are "complicating it" but you are disecting the question to win the argument, if we break it down more and more we we can figure a way to get every country coming out on top. One may be tge best per capita, one by overall greatness of champions, one by number of names in an atg p4p list. As much as we would like to have the country we support/are from to have the best it just does'nt happen for everyone.

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Don't worry, Onix... I don't think you're trying to be a dick.

As for the PR-Mexico score, there's been huge victories on both sides... so I wouldn't venture to say it's one-sided one way or the other.

As for the part I bolded... too bad you feel that way. It's not a matter of "breaking it down every which way so every country will come out on top". It's a matter of simple arithmetic. It just burns me when people who have little knowledge of international boxing (present company excluded, of course), spout off about the only countries having rich boxing histories and traditions being the U.S. and Mexico. That's just plain ignorant, and I'll stand on my soapbox all day to dismiss that argument.

All i said Tito was that what your saying is your produce more champions based on population all i am saying if you look at the top 10 even top 20 all time greats i would say you proably have more US fighters then any country i not knocking you your right i just putting out a point. When i say from the US i mean born here Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommey Hearns and the list goes on people that were born here is what i meant sorry if i was not clear but that was what i was getting at.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

All i said Tito was that what your saying is your produce more champions based on population all i am saying if you look at the top 10 even top 20 all time greats i would say you proably have more US fighters then any country i not knocking you your right i just putting out a point. When i say from the US i mean born here Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommey Hearns and the list goes on people that were born here is what i meant sorry if i was not clear but that was what i was getting at.

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I have no disagreement with what you just said.

:)

Also if you look at how many Champions are in different weight classes i would have to say that the USA has that cover as well and in the main watch divisions we have had in the bag for the most part so its all at what your looking at i was just pointing out some things that is all.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Also if you look at how many Champions are in different weight classes i would have to say that the USA has that cover as well and in the main watch divisions we have had in the bag for the most part so its all at what your looking at i was just pointing out some things that is all.

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Again... based on the sheer numbers of champions the U.S. has produced, I have no qualms with that, either.

Once again, it's when people start talking about the U.S., Mexico and England as being the only boxing countries worth talking about... that's when I pull out the stats.

;)

Question Tito how big is the is boxing in PR like in HS do they want you to do boxing do you have gyms at your schools in stuff just wondering.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Question Tito how big is the is boxing in PR like in HS do they want you to do boxing do you have gyms at your schools in stuff just wondering.

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Boxing's huge in P.R., but no... it's not at the HS level or anything like that. There's a lot of young talent, and plenty of gyms for them to develop in. It's always been a wonder to me how we do so good at the pro level, but have had relatively little Olympic success. Regardless, there seem to be a lot of young prospects rising up through the ranks, to where I see there being a good P.R. representation at the world class level for many years to come.

Just wondering becasue the Usa does not have gyms in HS well at least in southern California i was just wondering if PR did i think that Mexico might they are very into boxing and they people turing pro at very young ages but they might be the same way as us and dont have it envoled with school there i wonder why that is because it used to be in the schools and now its not i guess because they dont want people getting hurt and then everyone pointing at the school trying to get the money they dont have really sucks because it is a great to keep and shape.

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

USA (probably at #1)
Mexico
Puerto Rico
UK
Jamaica (if you count boxers such as Lloyd Honeyghan as well)

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Wow, I forgot about Jamaica. On a per capita basis, it ranks very high, indeed.

A series of five monster upsets all by tough Jamaican fighters astounded me.

Trevor Berbick’s 1980 ambush KO of Big John Tate in Montreal set the stage for four more shockers. The welterweight champion Lloyd Honeyghan, nicknamed “Ragamuffin” due to his Jamaican roots, defeated heavily favored Donald Curry in 1986. In an equally stunning upset, welterweight Kirkland Laing (43-12-1) beat Roberto Duran in 1982.
And there was the notable amateur fighter, Michael Bentt, former WBO
Heavyweight Champ, who knocked out heavily favored Tommy Morrison in
1993 in an incredible first-round upset. The thing about Bentt was that he was very good amateur fighter, and Morrison’s camp had done a terrible
job researching his amateur record. Had he not suffered a career-ending and life-threatening injury in his fight with Herbie Hide, there is no telling how far he could have gone.


And who could forget the great Simon “Mantequilla” Brown, WBC and IBF
Welterweight Titleholder who KO’d Terry Norris in 1993 for the WBC Light
Middleweight Title in Ring magazine’s Upset of the Year? What made these fights memorable? They were all major upsets, and they were all pulled off by Jamaican fighters.

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hell we're (Puerto Rico) smaller than Jamaica and we have more big name fighters/meaningful champions from 60 to now lol

Carlos Ortiz (ok it was 59 but hell lol)

Jose "Chegui" Torres

Alfredo "Salsero" Escalera (lost his world title to Arguello)

Samuel Serrano

Wilfred Benitez (youngest world champ ever)

Esteban DeJesus (first to beat Duran, and even dropped him in the fights he
lost to Duran)

Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez (one of, if not the highest KO percentages in championship fights ever)

Carlos "Sugar" De Leon

Ossie Ocasio

Juan Laporte

Edwin "Chapo" Rosario

Hector "Macho" Camacho

Wilfredo "Wil" Vazquez

John John Molina

Felix "Tito" Trinidad

Alex "El Nene" Sanchez

Eric Morel

Daniel Santos

Nelson Dieppa

Ivan Calderon

Miguel Cotto

and now Juan Manuel Lopez

and that's not counting all the champions just the ones that have had great success in the longterm or in getting positive attention

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

USA (probably at #1)
Mexico
Puerto Rico
UK
Jamaica (if you count boxers such as Lloyd Honeyghan as well)

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Wow, I forgot about Jamaica. On a per capita basis, it ranks very high, indeed.

A series of five monster upsets all by tough Jamaican fighters astounded me.

Trevor Berbick’s 1980 ambush KO of Big John Tate in Montreal set the stage for four more shockers. The welterweight champion Lloyd Honeyghan, nicknamed “Ragamuffin” due to his Jamaican roots, defeated heavily favored Donald Curry in 1986. In an equally stunning upset, welterweight Kirkland Laing (43-12-1) beat Roberto Duran in 1982.
And there was the notable amateur fighter, Michael Bentt, former WBO
Heavyweight Champ, who knocked out heavily favored Tommy Morrison in
1993 in an incredible first-round upset. The thing about Bentt was that he was very good amateur fighter, and Morrison’s camp had done a terrible
job researching his amateur record. Had he not suffered a career-ending and life-threatening injury in his fight with Herbie Hide, there is no telling how far he could have gone.


And who could forget the great Simon “Mantequilla” Brown, WBC and IBF
Welterweight Titleholder who KO’d Terry Norris in 1993 for the WBC Light
Middleweight Title in Ring magazine’s Upset of the Year? What made these fights memorable? They were all major upsets, and they were all pulled off by Jamaican fighters.

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hell we're (Puerto Rico) smaller than Jamaica and we have more big name fighters/meaningful champions from 60 to now lol

Carlos Ortiz (ok it was 59 but hell lol)

Jose "Chegui" Torres

Alfredo "Salsero" Escalera (lost his world title to Arguello)

Samuel Serrano

Wilfred Benitez (youngest world champ ever)

Esteban DeJesus (first to beat Duran, and even dropped him in the fights he
lost to Duran)

Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez (one of, if not the highest KO percentages in championship fights ever)

Carlos "Sugar" De Leon

Ossie Ocasio

Juan Laporte

Edwin "Chapo" Rosario

Hector "Macho" Camacho

Wilfredo "Wil" Vazquez

John John Molina

Felix "Tito" Trinidad

Alex "El Nene" Sanchez

Eric Morel

Daniel Santos

Nelson Dieppa

Ivan Calderon

Miguel Cotto

and now Juan Manuel Lopez

and that's not counting all the champions just the ones that have had great success in the longterm or in getting positive attention

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Thats a bold statement, more big names fighters than who? Someone made an accurate comment on this thread about the US having more ATG fighters than any other country in the world so what country are you saying that P.R. has more than?

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

USA (probably at #1)
Mexico
Puerto Rico
UK
Jamaica (if you count boxers such as Lloyd Honeyghan as well)

---

Wow, I forgot about Jamaica. On a per capita basis, it ranks very high, indeed.

A series of five monster upsets all by tough Jamaican fighters astounded me.

Trevor Berbick’s 1980 ambush KO of Big John Tate in Montreal set the stage for four more shockers. The welterweight champion Lloyd Honeyghan, nicknamed “Ragamuffin” due to his Jamaican roots, defeated heavily favored Donald Curry in 1986. In an equally stunning upset, welterweight Kirkland Laing (43-12-1) beat Roberto Duran in 1982.
And there was the notable amateur fighter, Michael Bentt, former WBO
Heavyweight Champ, who knocked out heavily favored Tommy Morrison in
1993 in an incredible first-round upset. The thing about Bentt was that he was very good amateur fighter, and Morrison’s camp had done a terrible
job researching his amateur record. Had he not suffered a career-ending and life-threatening injury in his fight with Herbie Hide, there is no telling how far he could have gone.


And who could forget the great Simon “Mantequilla” Brown, WBC and IBF
Welterweight Titleholder who KO’d Terry Norris in 1993 for the WBC Light
Middleweight Title in Ring magazine’s Upset of the Year? What made these fights memorable? They were all major upsets, and they were all pulled off by Jamaican fighters.

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hell we're (Puerto Rico) smaller than Jamaica and we have more big name fighters/meaningful champions from 60 to now lol

Carlos Ortiz (ok it was 59 but hell lol)

Jose "Chegui" Torres

Alfredo "Salsero" Escalera (lost his world title to Arguello)

Samuel Serrano

Wilfred Benitez (youngest world champ ever)

Esteban DeJesus (first to beat Duran, and even dropped him in the fights he
lost to Duran)

Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez (one of, if not the highest KO percentages in championship fights ever)

Carlos "Sugar" De Leon

Ossie Ocasio

Juan Laporte

Edwin "Chapo" Rosario

Hector "Macho" Camacho

Wilfredo "Wil" Vazquez

John John Molina

Felix "Tito" Trinidad

Alex "El Nene" Sanchez

Eric Morel

Daniel Santos

Nelson Dieppa

Ivan Calderon

Miguel Cotto

and now Juan Manuel Lopez

and that's not counting all the champions just the ones that have had great success in the longterm or in getting positive attention

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Good list bro. But you forgot Angel "Cholo" Espada, and probably a few others.

:)

Any guy named "Cholo," you gotta like.:appl:

Yes i know what what per capita means. but that wasn't the question on this Thread. the question was simple and the answer is simple USA/MEXICO. a champion is a champion , real numbers are real numbers, results are results. just because a certain country is bigger doesnt mean its champions and dominance of the sport counts less than the results from smaller countries. just remember the question (What country has produced the best all around fighters during the past 60 years?) NOT (which country has produced the best and most per capita champions). so stop trying to disect and misderect the question just to make Puerto Rico win cause it wont happen. in the records all that counts are the real and hard and cold numbers not the per capita/current population/population growth,boom/estimated population/econonic growth and development or other types of non boxing issues. Yes Puerto Rico and other countries have good boxing traditions but only the USA and MEXICO have GREAT/RICH BOXING histories and traditions. So if the truth hurts oh well u cant please everybody. one must maintain neutrality when answering this question and not let your national pride get in the way. so again hands-down USA and MEXICO:):):):):)

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Originally Posted by Sir Valentine

Yes i know what what per capita means. but that wasn't the question on this Thread. the question was simple and the answer is simple USA/MEXICO. a champion is a champion , real numbers are real numbers, results are results. just because a certain country is bigger doesnt mean its champions and dominance of the sport counts less than the results from smaller countries. just remember the question (What country has produced the best all around fighters during the past 60 years?) NOT (which country has produced the best and most per capita champions). so stop trying to disect and misderect the question just to make Puerto Rico win cause it wont happen. in the records all that counts are the real and hard and cold numbers not the per capita/current population/population growth,boom/estimated population/econonic growth and development or other types of non boxing issues. Yes Puerto Rico and other countries have good boxing traditions but only the USA and MEXICO have GREAT/RICH BOXING histories and traditions. So if the truth hurts oh well u cant please everybody. one must maintain neutrality when answering this question and not let your national pride get in the way. so again hands-down USA and MEXICO:):):):):)

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well but you gotta consider size though bro, just cause you consider a dude who wins a belt a champion well yea USA/Mexico take the cake, but shit, we're smaller than most CITIES in the US and yet most the champions, and emphasis on CHAMPION, that come out of PR make a statement and don't just win a belt to lose it in the first defense