Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
Nothing wrong with Naito being the lineal champ, he beat the man who beat the man... Heck, Naito defeated Pongsucklick ... I can even accept Armando Santa Cruz being lineal champ at one time if the judges didn't rob him against Casamayor... Santa Cruz is not the best lightweight but he beat the man...
OK, I am asking you a simple question yes or no.
Is Naito the lineal champ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
You're the one who's off Mick ... including your mockery of Filipino boxing fans' knowledge about lineages... You seems to be fair but my respect for you become lesser because of that opinion... Why? Do you consider only Americans and Mexicans has authority/knowledge about lineages??
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I'm ONLY mocking the ones who come on here trying to preach something that is clearly not true.
If he shoe fits, wear it.
I'm fair and I respect anyone who respects me.
At no point did I disrespect you.
Look up the lineage by Ring Magazine on the Flyweight division and you will see the lineage is lost somewhere along Chitalada-Kim, after that their is no lineal champ.
Also another bold lie Cliff typed is the whole WBC/Lineal thing.
Yes at one point it might have been or looked that way but their was no ties between the 2.
1st it was the NYSAC and then NBA formed the WBA.
1988 - Kim lineal
1989 - Vacant
1990 thru 2009 - Vacant.
The things I have to do, to get a point accross and I bet you eventhought I am clearly showing you FACTS you are still gonna be blind.
The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: Flyweight--1980s - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia
The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: Flyweight--1990s - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia
Notice how the lineage is lost in 1989 and is never picked up.
Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Also I don't consider Americans or Mexicans the most knowledgeable.
I consider people who do research on their own and learn about the sport.
Not just run google searches on 1 BOXER or Boxers from their country and post endless links to articles about just non-sense.
and don't give me the Caballero bull... cause clearly you'll root for anyone who can take out an opponent that's a threat to a Filipino boxer meaning Caballero to defeat JuanMa cause he's younger and is a threat to rising Filipino boxers who are trying to come up in the div.
I've got no problems debating online, I don't need writers to prove a point.
I am a student of the sport and learn everyday from people here and from the endless freaking stacks of magazines I have that I hope to read all one day and online.
But when someone like you who clearly became a Pac fan sometime around the Ledwaba or MAB fight is debating with me about something that is in the books and I know it is. It's just funny to sit here and read you try to convince yourself and other people about it.
I just proved you and Cliff and Dan wrong with those 2 links, done and dusted.
Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Mick, The Ring went out of buisness for a short time around 89/90, when they came back they stopped recognising lineal champs. That's why the lineage is lost in 1989. They then ignored their own history when they restarted the ratings years later (2001/2).
Just check every champ in 1989 - They are all vacant.
It doesn't change the fact that - if you beat the champ you become the champ. ;)
Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutMeMick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
Nothing wrong with Naito being the lineal champ, he beat the man who beat the man... Heck, Naito defeated Pongsucklick ... I can even accept Armando Santa Cruz being lineal champ at one time if the judges didn't rob him against Casamayor... Santa Cruz is not the best lightweight but he beat the man...
OK, I am asking you a simple question yes or no.
Is Naito the lineal champ?
Yes...
Mick just accept for once that you got this all wrong... There's so many references around the boxing world that Naito is a lineal champ...
Daisuke Naito – World Flyweight Champion – (32-2-2, 20 KO, Lineal/WBC)
Naito has done nothing wrong to be this low on the list. That he suffers reflects more on the man he beat for the title, Pongsaklek Wonjongkam, and the nature of his division moreso than it does on the Japanese veteran. To the credit of his title, it has the farthest reach backwards into history, traceable to the reign of the great Miguel Canto. It is a line that has encompassed some excellent fighters along the way, fighters like Sot Chitalada, Yuri Arbachakov and Pacquiao. The problems at Flyweight are that the talent is often separated by national, if not continental, borders and the best fighters rarely get it on. Wonjongkam broke Canto’s record of 14 consecutive titles defenses without fights against titlists Vic Darchinyan, Eric Morel, Omar Narvaez, or Lorenzo Parra so what kind of reign was he having? Not much of one. In his two defenses so far, Naito decisioned one questionable foe in Daiki Kameda and logged a rematch draw with Wonjongkam so he’s not off to a bad start but will he face WBA titlist Takefumi Sakata or IBF titlist Nonito Donaire?
Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutMeMick
Also I don't consider Americans or Mexicans the most knowledgeable.
I consider people who do research on their own and learn about the sport.
Not just run google searches on 1 BOXER or Boxers from their country and post endless links to articles about just non-sense.
and don't give me the Caballero bull... cause clearly you'll root for anyone who can take out an opponent that's a threat to a Filipino boxer meaning Caballero to defeat JuanMa cause he's younger and is a threat to rising Filipino boxers who are trying to come up in the div.
I've got no problems debating online, I don't need writers to prove a point.
I am a student of the sport and learn everyday from people here and from the endless freaking stacks of magazines I have that I hope to read all one day and online.
But when someone like you who clearly became a Pac fan sometime around the Ledwaba or MAB fight is debating with me about something that is in the books and I know it is. It's just funny to sit here and read you try to convince yourself and other people about it.
I just proved you and Cliff and Dan wrong with those 2 links, done and dusted.
Mick Mick, I've been a Caballero fan since he defeated Daniel Ponce De Leon... JuanMa was not yet born that time Mick... ;D
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Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Mick, The Ring went out of buisness for a short time around 89/90, when they came back they stopped recognising lineal champs. That's why the lineage is lost in 1989. They then ignored their own history when they restarted the ratings years later (2001/2).
Just check every champ in 1989 - They are all vacant.
It doesn't change the fact that - if you beat the champ you become the champ. ;)
Hope Mick approach this with an open mind...;)
Here's a good link covering the period in question:
link --> THE HISTORY OF THE FLYWEIGHT DIVISION
Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Mick, The Ring went out of buisness for a short time around 89/90, when they came back they stopped recognising lineal champs. That's why the lineage is lost in 1989. They then ignored their own history when they restarted the ratings years later (2001/2).
Just check every champ in 1989 - They are all vacant.
It doesn't change the fact that - if you beat the champ you become the champ. ;)
Hope Mick approach this with an open mind...;)
Here's a good link covering the period in question:
link -->
THE HISTORY OF THE FLYWEIGHT DIVISION
Of course Mick has an open mind, he is a student of the sport, he'll appreciate it. :)
Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
I want him to fight the best.
Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Mick, The Ring went out of buisness for a short time around 89/90, when they came back they stopped recognising lineal champs. That's why the lineage is lost in 1989. They then ignored their own history when they restarted the ratings years later (2001/2).
Just check every champ in 1989 - They are all vacant.
It doesn't change the fact that - if you beat the champ you become the champ. ;)
Hope Mick approach this with an open mind...;)
Here's a good link covering the period in question:
link -->
THE HISTORY OF THE FLYWEIGHT DIVISION
Of course Mick has an open mind, he is a student of the sport, he'll appreciate it. :)
That's what I'm thinking too... Mick a good student and good learner... I'm sure he's willing to learn some more from his fellow knowledgeable members here like you MOD Fens...;)
Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Invincible
The easiest to beat-to hardest to beat.
1)Urango
2)Clottey
3)Berto
4)Cotto
5)Mosley*
Note: The * represents the only fighter that is capable of beating Manny at the moment and until somebody beats Shane, Cotto and Paul Williams , they cannot be an undisputed champ @ WW.
I don't think any WW could beat Paul W. at this point, including a moving up Pacquiao. Chin too good, work rate too good and speed too good. The only prayer is to KO him and that will not happen. Some may say, "Well, look what Quintana did". But anyone who knows anything knows it was a fluke. Williams proved that in the rematch and would not come in and mess around like that in another high profile fight. Trust me.
I agree, Urango is the easiest... No disrespect for Urango but he's so slow and Hatton did "beat" him...;) Tho he has massive power punches...
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Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutMeMick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
I'll just post an article:
Pacquiao’s Title Resume
World Flyweight (112) – KO 8 Chatchai Sasakul: Turned professional at age 16 with a points win over Edmund Ignacio on January 22, 1995, Pacquiao would amass a record of 23-1 en route to his first major title win on December 4, 1999. The WBC recognized Sasakul as champion after a surprising upset of previous conqueror and long-time champion Yuri Arbachakov in 1997.
History also recognized Sasakul as king.
The WBC belt then, and still, also runs parallel to the lineal World championship at Flyweight all the way back to the reign of Miguel Canto. Fittingly, it took a championship bomb to begin Pacquiao’s collection of Gold. The more experienced Sasakul counter punched and outslicked the taller Pacquiao for much of the bout, though the youngster was never out of the fight. Pacquiao at 19 was much more a one-handed fighter then versus the better all-around warrior he’s become under the tutelage of Freddie Roach. Even then, that one hand, the left, was enough if it landed. It did and Sasakul was relieved of the top honors at 112 lbs.
There was one Flyweight during the reign of Arbachakov and later Sasakul who could make a strong case against recognizing the validity of recognizing their lineal claims to the top, but American Mark “Too Sharp” Johnson had moved up to capture gold at 115 lbs. some eight months before Pacquiao’s ascension.
Forecast: Clear, Lineal Claim to the World Title
Boxer,
Who typed this article?
What a crock of shit it is and whoever put it together needs to be slapped. It wouldn't shock me to know a Filipino writer put it together and going out on a wild guess here it's either you (or someone from that Pac site you guys post on)
It's funny because prior to Pac, todays Filipino fans didn't know about lineages and or the rich history of the sport. Now suddenly they know who beat whom and the whole history of the sport.
Don't get me wrong I'm all for fans supporting the sport and making it great but when people like the idiot who typed this article start doing things like this which is put WRONG/FALSE/INCORRECT info. that pisses me off.
He clearly does not understand what lineage means and is.
The WBC title went through so many names in the 80's that the lineage was lost somewhere along Chitlada-Kim as they traded the title.
After Chitladas win he no longer was the Ring Champ.
You can't claim lineage to a title because you picked up a strap. specialy when their is another title holder who just beat you.
Which was the case in the division.
The writer clearly leaves out that Yuri was never the Ring Champ. so there is absolutely NO lineage between Kittikasems win over Yuri.
Lineages are kept either by dethroning the champ and or #1 vs. #2 face off. As I mentioned Kim-Chitlada was the last lineage in the Fly division.
Pac has 3 lineage titles; Feather, Sup. Feather and Light Welter.
Which is great and Henry Armstrong would be proud of him.
There is one title you guys haven't mentioned. It can't be traced though linage. Although it's not counted as a Weight Classification Title and it has even been called Mythical. There is nothing Mythical or Hypothetical about some very tangible effects is has on $$$, recognition and the respect it carries. i.e. "The Rings" title that Pacquiao holds is P4P #1.
Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutMeMick
Also I don't consider Americans or Mexicans the most knowledgeable.
I consider people who do research on their own and learn about the sport.
Not just run google searches on 1 BOXER or Boxers from their country and post endless links to articles about just non-sense.
and don't give me the Caballero bull... cause clearly you'll root for anyone who can take out an opponent that's a threat to a Filipino boxer meaning Caballero to defeat JuanMa cause he's younger and is a threat to rising Filipino boxers who are trying to come up in the div.
I've got no problems debating online, I don't need writers to prove a point.
I am a student of the sport and learn everyday from people here and from the endless freaking stacks of magazines I have that I hope to read all one day and online.
But when someone like you who clearly became a Pac fan sometime around the Ledwaba or MAB fight is debating with me about something that is in the books and I know it is. It's just funny to sit here and read you try to convince yourself and other people about it.
I just proved you and Cliff and Dan wrong with those 2 links, done and dusted.
Oppsss I missed this one, you could include MOD Fens in that list since I think he considered Daisuke Naito a lineal flyweight champ...;)
.
Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Roach asked Mosley to fight PAC at 142 lbs. and Mosley said "no" citing the fact that PAC fought DelaHoya at 147...
Seems PAC-Mosley fight is a tough one to make...
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Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Well i am a fan of Mosley so i am bias about this but i really see him knocking Pac out for a few reason i will state what they are. Mosley is as fast as pac at the weight even at the age of 37 and he is also has great power better then any past people Pac has faced in the ring. Not to mention he has great body punching which while be a huge problem. Also and this is most important factor Mosley chin has to one of the best in the history of the sport he ranks up with Haglers and the Leonards kinda of chin and that is one of the major problems he while cause right there.
Re: Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Well i am a fan of Mosley so i am bias about this but i really see him knocking Pac out for a few reason i will state what they are. Mosley is as fast as pac at the weight even at the age of 37 and he is also has great power better then any past people Pac has faced in the ring. Not to mention he has great body punching which while be a huge problem. Also and this is most important factor Mosley chin has to one of the best in the history of the sport he ranks up with Haglers and the Leonards kinda of chin and that is one of the major problems he while cause right there.
No way man. Shane mosley is good I cant dissagree with that, but I do have some dissagreements. No one said Shane had power until he knocked out Margarito so im not ready to jump on that banwagon yet. I know he's a bigger man but winky was letting him hit him a one point. Shane has great speed but he's not as fast as Manny. I would see this fight going similar to the Mosley Cotto fight except a wider unanomous desision for Pacman. Pacquiao's movement is too good to be KO'd by Shane and Pacs also got a chin of his own. I dont think Pacquiao can knock Mosley out, because like you said he's got one heck of a chin, I just see Manny beating him to the punch!
