Well Mayweather comes in at 149 t0 150 fight night so how come he has to fight a cruiser weight. I mean i dont even like Mayweather but shit such a double standard its just in insane.
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Well Mayweather comes in at 149 t0 150 fight night so how come he has to fight a cruiser weight. I mean i dont even like Mayweather but shit such a double standard its just in insane.
I can't comment on the amateur level because I know next to nothing about it, so it's not my place.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Here's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).
I commented on that even though Pac was not a grown man and I understand that looking at it from other points of views it may not be impressive moving up the weights, but Pac was still fighting grown men as a developing teen and managed to become a lineal champ at 19, only Marbleheadedmaui brought that up and I agree with him. So in no way was I dissing Amateurs, but on the other hand I also commented that even though the lower weight divisions had more weight classes and separated by 3 or 4 pounds it's not some easy task fighting at one division to another like it's some cakewalk and a guy can just go through those weight divisions like a hot knife through butter. Ricardo Lopez fought at 105 and 108, if it was easy he would have won alphabet titles and lineal titles all the way up to say 118 right? I mean it's only 13 pounds going from 105 to 118! So why didn't he fight all way up to bantamweight? Because it's not easy and these little fighters are physically different than higher weight fighters like say a 140 pound fighter going to 147. But some guy here on the previous page and it wasn't you, made it sound easy and insignificant with "hey these lower weights are separated by 3 or 4 pounds only!" Just some funny stuff and guy commented that he was an amateur boxer with serious knowledge on the fight game, but yet he's dissing the lower weights and Pac's acheivements.
Martinez is not the best fighter in the sport.
I see his point however, I don't think it was in context of someone like Lopez who was very small, more guys like Pacquiao & Donaire who are 'bigger' than those weights and growing through them. Obviously those limits are there for a reason because they represent percentages of body weight. Blegit in my experience knows a lot about the sport & although he hasn't said so, I believe he competed to a pretty high level as an amateur. I still agree winning a lineal title at just 19 (not to mention he's the only fighter in history with 4 of them) is a hell of an achievement & I think a lot of fans don't realize how good Sasakul was.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
My point regarding the amateurs is that they would have been fighting grown men as teens. Any amateur will have to fight grown men & that's still what it is, a fight. It's another reason that many great prospects look to burn out early because there's plenty of wear & tear from the amateurs. A guy like Jerry Page is a perfect example of this.
Nice post!Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinHere's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).
Fair point on high level amateurs facing grown men. But they are doing so while wearing headgear, with far more protective referees and only for 8-9 minutes (depending on what era we are talking about). So they do not face a huge number of the challenges pros do. Fighting while hurt, fighting while really exhausted, and it is impossible in 8-9 minutes of fighting to have to deal with the same number of adjustments as one will face over 30-36 minutes of fighting. Staying disciplined and focuised for that far longer period is enormously different. It just isn't the same thing. The difference between amateur and pro boxing are at least as big as the difference between college and pro football or Triple A Baseball and the Majore Leagues.
That is not to deny amateur accomplishments (I help out training them from time to time), it is merely to note the differences.
Except Mayweather doesn't come in at that weight. Hell he violated his contract with JMM and wouldn't even try to make 144 the day before the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The Math is pretty straightforward. Manny has fought across ten divisions. Floyd began as a 130. Ten divisions would be 130, 135, 140, 147, 154, 160, 168, 175 (that's only eight).
Try it another way. Manny has fought up 39% from his initial weight. 39% from 129 (Floyd's lowest) would be 179.
Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Did you know that Sergio Martinez's last 5 opponents before 2008 have a record of like 71 wins and 78 losses :D :p . Not sure from what fighter it starts but its there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThis is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
CRUISERWEIGHT Actually :D
I agree on the referees & the timing, although amateur bouts are generally fought at a quicker pace because of that time difference. Where I disagree is headgear as to my mind it makes no difference to the force of a blow & I find it inhibits my head movement as this is a game of inches & it adds a little. Although at least it does prevent your face getting smashed up by headclashes. I also disagree on having to fight when hurt, if anything I believe this is where many top pros first have to learn to do this. It was a point Richardson made before the Mayweather-Mosley fight that he'd seen Floyd hit hard in the ams & that's when as he called it 'the dragon comes out'.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiNice post!Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Fair point on high level amateurs facing grown men. But they are doing so while wearing headgear, with far more protective referees and only for 8-9 minutes (depending on what era we are talking about). So they do not face a huge number of the challenges pros do. Fighting while hurt, fighting while really exhausted, and it is impossible in 8-9 minutes of fighting to have to deal with the same number of adjustments as one will face over 30-36 minutes of fighting. Staying disciplined and focuised for that far longer period is enormously different. It just isn't the same thing. The difference between amateur and pro boxing are at least as big as the difference between college and pro football or Triple A Baseball and the Majore Leagues.
That is not to deny amateur accomplishments (I help out training them from time to time), it is merely to note the differences.
What I'd argue is that being a top amateur is equivalent to the early fights in any pro fighter's career assuming they're matched against guys with in or around .500 records. I think that until Chokchai, Pacquiao hadn't faced anyone who should have been remotely a threat given his amateur record & natural gifts (ignoring Torrecampo obviously). I suppose my point is that you may well face better opponents as an amateur than you will early in your pro career.
Don't disagree at all. But you are doing so in far less risky and therefore less demanding environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinI agree on the referees & the timing, although amateur bouts are generally fought at a quicker pace because of that time difference. Where I disagree is headgear as to my mind it makes no difference to the force of a blow & I find it inhibits my head movement as this is a game of inches & it adds a little. Although at least it does prevent your face getting smashed up by headclashes. I also disagree on having to fight when hurt, if anything I believe this is where many top pros first have to learn to do this. It was a point Richardson made before the Mayweather-Mosley fight that he'd seen Floyd hit hard in the ams & that's when as he called it 'the dragon comes out'.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiNice post!Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Fair point on high level amateurs facing grown men. But they are doing so while wearing headgear, with far more protective referees and only for 8-9 minutes (depending on what era we are talking about). So they do not face a huge number of the challenges pros do. Fighting while hurt, fighting while really exhausted, and it is impossible in 8-9 minutes of fighting to have to deal with the same number of adjustments as one will face over 30-36 minutes of fighting. Staying disciplined and focuised for that far longer period is enormously different. It just isn't the same thing. The difference between amateur and pro boxing are at least as big as the difference between college and pro football or Triple A Baseball and the Majore Leagues.
That is not to deny amateur accomplishments (I help out training them from time to time), it is merely to note the differences.
What I'd argue is that being a top amateur is equivalent to the early fights in any pro fighter's career assuming they're matched against guys with in or around .500 records. I think that until Chokchai, Pacquiao hadn't faced anyone who should have been remotely a threat given his amateur record & natural gifts (ignoring Torrecampo obviously). I suppose my point is that you may well face better opponents as an amateur than you will early in your pro career.
There are reasons that pros don't come right out of the gate with ten round fights.
;DI agree, apart from it being less risky & demanding. When you're in there all you want is that win & it's always risk when someone is trying to punch your face off ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
On your second sentence, that's one thing that really impresses me about Pacquiao. He was facing guys in 10 round bout from as early as his 6th fight or something. Granted most of them weren't seeing that bell, but still that's damn impressive.
We've gone right off topic here ;D
LOL, don't we always? I remember in Ray Robinson's autobiography how he described his nerves before his pro debut. It took him two rounds before he understood he'd faced better guys in the amateurs and he relaxed and fought his fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin;DI agree, apart from it being less risky & demanding. When you're in there all you want is that win & it's always risk when someone is trying to punch your face off ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
On your second sentence, that's one thing that really impresses me about Pacquiao. He was facing guys in 10 round bout from as early as his 6th fight or something. Granted most of them weren't seeing that bell, but still that's damn impressive.
We've gone right off topic here ;D
Well, let's make this very simple for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiLOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by milesMarquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiBut THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesAre you trying to put words in my mouth? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogMartinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by milesIf Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThis is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWell, let's make this very simple for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiLOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by milesMarquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiBut THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesAre you trying to put words in my mouth? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogMartinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by milesIf Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThis is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Dead on but there blind......
Pac has a history of eating 12,400 calories daily to make anything above 140...oh and what's his heaviest 144.5 against Margo. So Pac eats only 200 hot dogs a day instead of the usual 600. Hey we all seen what the special hot dogs do right? I mean Kobayashi went from skinny little dude to a buff little dude. Hey wait...maybe it's all in the hot dogs and not the roids....
Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWell, let's make this very simple for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiLOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by milesMarquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiBut THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesAre you trying to put words in my mouth? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogMartinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by milesIf Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThis is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.
Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.
My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.
Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.