Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
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Originally Posted by
miles
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Originally Posted by
Fenster
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Originally Posted by
El Kabong
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Originally Posted by
Fenster
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Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Who did the british commentary?
Jim Watt and Jon Rawling had Wlad by a landslide.
It seems like they weren't as pathetically juvenile as HBO though.
Watt was ok? I thought you Brits didn't like him.
I am very interested in Steve Bunce's take on "Toegate" since he's Haye's lickspittle.
They gave Wlad credit for being a brilliant boxer instead of acting like beavis and butthead making fun of Haye.
You would have enjoyed the British broadcast. Trust me.
True, they were mocking Haye an awful lot. Understandable, but these guys are supposed to be pros, not guys like us.
They were more critical of Haye than of any fighter in any fight I can recall seeing. However, I think they were pretty much voicing the opinions of their viewers. This was the first decent heavyweight unification fight in what - a decade? Boxing fans we're excited and it looked like there was an exciting, athletic, and hard-hitting fighter who could break the Klitschko's stranglehold on the division.
Haye told anyone who would listen about how he was going to bring excitement back into the HW division, how he was going to relentlessly attack Wlad until he stopped him, and his actions in the ring proved him to be a hypocrite and liar. Now, are any hardcore boxing fans surprised that a boxer ran his mouth about being exciting and pursuing a KO and then ended up fighting in a boring and ridiculously negative way? Not at all, but it leaves that fighter open to a ton of criticism and I feel that most of it was warranted.
The sad thing is, I think that the last rounds showed that Haye might well have beaten Klitschko if he had committed himself to attacking and throwing more than 1 punch at a time (of course he might have ended up TKO'd himself, but he would have won over a lot of fans), but it was too little too late.
Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Only took three days, brilliant. Takes a little to come on and say, yeh I was totally wrong. Point for that.
I don't think there will be rematch and don't think there should be. It's odd to hear a guy call for a rematch based not on merit and due to what a fight he put forth but instead say Wlad should take me for a payday ??? Seriously, Haye has delusions of grandeur and needs to get back in line, concentrate on fighting more and politicking less. It just all rings shallow when he just had 12 rounds to talk with his fists, bit of going to the well one time to much. Rhetoric is not his friend!
Very odd, especially when you were such a pretentious douche even getting the 1st fight made. The HAREmaker is going to have to get in line, and actually work his way back into contention by beating a couple good HW's, because his mouth ain't gonna get him another shot at Wlad.
Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Only took three days, brilliant. Takes a little to come on and say, yeh I was totally wrong. Point for that.
I don't think there will be rematch and don't think there should be. It's odd to hear a guy call for a rematch based not on merit and due to what a fight he put forth but instead say Wlad should take me for a payday ??? Seriously, Haye has delusions of grandeur and needs to get back in line, concentrate on fighting more and politicking less. It just all rings shallow when he just had 12 rounds to talk with his fists, bit of going to the well one time to much. Rhetoric is not his friend!
Very odd, especially when you were such a pretentious douche even getting the 1st fight made. The HAREmaker is going to have to get in line, and actually work his way back into contention by beating a couple good HW's, because his mouth ain't gonna get him another shot at Wlad.
Listening to thet way he speaks on it I don't think he believes he can actually beat him. He banked self entirely on a ko punch with zero else to fall back on, like I said before the fight he looks "shook", un nerved. Almost sounds like he's very real about that Oct. retirement and just wants to cash out big?!
Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Listening to thet way he speaks on it I don't think he believes he can actually beat him. He banked self entirely on a ko punch with zero else to fall back on, like I said before the fight he looks "shook", un nerved. Almost sounds like he's very real about that Oct. retirement and just wants to cash out big?!
He definitely believes he can beat him. Haye has complete arrogance & self-confidence. He probably still can't quite work out how it's happened. Every other loss in his amateur & pro career could be rationalized away in his own mind, other than a toe, he's got nothing for this one to get away from the fact he was in with a better boxer.
Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
Haye is getting a lot of criticism and yeah most of it rightly so. But...
....don't give him stick for saying before the fight that he was gonna win.... WTF is he supposed to say... 'Aw yeah thanks for the opportunity but I'm gonna get beat' ???
... Haye said he was gonna knock him out - hype - to try and throw Klitchsko of his game plan surely you can see that and didn't think Haye was gonna go toe to toe (no pun intended !!!) with a guy 6 feet 8 and around 2 stone heavier. Jesus I used to talk shit like that when I was just fighting guys from other gyms as an amateur.
.... don't forget Klitshko also said that he was gonna knock Haye out... okay he was more attack minded than normal but at no point did he really go for the kill.
... lay off the crap about the British making excuses.... it's not our fault it's the way we were brought up.... it's because we had to go through two world wars.... because we drink tea... and because we have weak toes ;D
Klitchsko will make Haye sweat over a rematch and rightly so - he's the Champ. who esle though is there.. besides his brother who he won't fight.... Haye will not retire at 30 - despite all the hype he's a fighter and he won't want to go out with that as his last fight - mark my words these two will fight again and hopefully Haye and Booth can come up with a better game plan.
I'll say again I haven't watched the heavyweights for a while because it's been so predictable and I hate the way Klitchsko fights but I've got nothing but respect for him the way he carries himself and the way he makes that shitty style work so effectivley.
He's the Champ - Respect !
Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Listening to thet way he speaks on it I don't think he believes he can actually beat him. He banked self entirely on a ko punch with zero else to fall back on, like I said before the fight he looks "shook", un nerved. Almost sounds like he's very real about that Oct. retirement and just wants to cash out big?!
He definitely believes he can beat him. Haye has complete arrogance & self-confidence. He probably still can't quite work out how it's happened. Every other loss in his amateur & pro career could be rationalized away in his own mind, other than a toe, he's got nothing for this one to get away from the fact he was in with a better boxer.
Thats it though,aside from relying on a sharp tongue and a potent punch he's really set himself up for the downfall. Your right yeh, he really does come off as having no rationalization. His arrogance undermines self confidence...I just don't know if a guy can have both really.
Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
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Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Listening to thet way he speaks on it I don't think he believes he can actually beat him. He banked self entirely on a ko punch with zero else to fall back on, like I said before the fight he looks "shook", un nerved. Almost sounds like he's very real about that Oct. retirement and just wants to cash out big?!
He definitely believes he can beat him. Haye has complete arrogance & self-confidence. He probably still can't quite work out how it's happened. Every other loss in his amateur & pro career could be rationalized away in his own mind, other than a toe, he's got nothing for this one to get away from the fact he was in with a better boxer.
Thats it though,aside from relying on a sharp tongue and a potent punch he's really set himself up for the downfall. Your right yeh, he really does come off as having no rationalization. His arrogance undermines self confidence...I just don't know if a guy can have both really.
Most successful boxers don't rationalize defeat though. You need that self-confidence & touch of arrogance to compete. Just a few weeks ago one of my team-mates seriously said that he thinks he could beat George Groves. This is a guy with just under 20 fights as an amateur.
Haye may have set himself up for a downfall, but he genuinely believed that he could win this fight or he wouldn't have said all of it. I'll say that I found his performance far less offensive than Hatton's against Pacquiao, which consisted of abandoning all he'd learnt since the age of 12 to charge around like a pub drunk.
I will say one thing, I think it's extremely unfair to expect fighters to say anything rational or clear immediately after a fight. They've just been getting hit, so of course they're going to be a bit all over the place. I know that if someone shoved a camera & microphone into my face after 3 rounds of an am fight, they'd probably get all sorts of incoherent bollocks.
Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
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Originally Posted by
Spicoli
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Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
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Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Listening to thet way he speaks on it I don't think he believes he can actually beat him. He banked self entirely on a ko punch with zero else to fall back on, like I said before the fight he looks "shook", un nerved. Almost sounds like he's very real about that Oct. retirement and just wants to cash out big?!
He definitely believes he can beat him. Haye has complete arrogance & self-confidence. He probably still can't quite work out how it's happened. Every other loss in his amateur & pro career could be rationalized away in his own mind, other than a toe, he's got nothing for this one to get away from the fact he was in with a better boxer.
Thats it though,aside from relying on a sharp tongue and a potent punch he's really set himself up for the downfall. Your right yeh, he really does come off as having no rationalization. His arrogance undermines self confidence...I just don't know if a guy can have both really.
Most successful boxers don't rationalize defeat though. You need that self-confidence & touch of arrogance to compete. Just a few weeks ago one of my team-mates seriously said that he thinks he could beat George Groves. This is a guy with just under 20 fights as an amateur.
Haye may have set himself up for a downfall, but he genuinely believed that he could win this fight or he wouldn't have said all of it. I'll say that I found his performance far less offensive than Hatton's against Pacquiao, which consisted of abandoning all he'd learnt since the age of 12 to charge around like a pub drunk.
I will say one thing, I think it's extremely unfair to expect fighters to say anything rational or clear immediately after a fight. They've just been getting hit, so of course they're going to be a bit all over the place. I know that if someone shoved a camera & microphone into my face after 3 rounds of an am fight, they'd probably get all sorts of incoherent bollocks.
If there was a nail on this thread you would have just hit it on the head..... Good post !
Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Listening to thet way he speaks on it I don't think he believes he can actually beat him. He banked self entirely on a ko punch with zero else to fall back on, like I said before the fight he looks "shook", un nerved. Almost sounds like he's very real about that Oct. retirement and just wants to cash out big?!
He definitely believes he can beat him. Haye has complete arrogance & self-confidence. He probably still can't quite work out how it's happened. Every other loss in his amateur & pro career could be rationalized away in his own mind, other than a toe, he's got nothing for this one to get away from the fact he was in with a better boxer.
Thats it though,aside from relying on a sharp tongue and a potent punch he's really set himself up for the downfall. Your right yeh, he really does come off as having no rationalization. His arrogance undermines self confidence...I just don't know if a guy can have both really.
Most successful boxers don't rationalize defeat though. You need that self-confidence & touch of arrogance to compete. Just a few weeks ago one of my team-mates seriously said that he thinks he could beat George Groves. This is a guy with just under 20 fights as an amateur.
Haye may have set himself up for a downfall, but he genuinely believed that he could win this fight or he wouldn't have said all of it. I'll say that I found his performance far less offensive than Hatton's against Pacquiao, which consisted of abandoning all he'd learnt since the age of 12 to charge around like a pub drunk.
I will say one thing, I think it's extremely unfair to expect fighters to say anything rational or clear immediately after a fight. They've just been getting hit, so of course they're going to be a bit all over the place. I know that if someone shoved a camera & microphone into my face after 3 rounds of an am fight, they'd probably get all sorts of incoherent bollocks.
Thats sort of where he let his arrogance lead and get ahead of substance. Thats why I don't buy all of the "Yeh it was all for hype and to sell the fight" stuff. Granted there is a dose of salemanship in every fighter but no man runs on that much and openly without actually believeing what he says, and if he does then he's just a blatthering fool more fit to sell used cars or Sham-wowz. Fighters aren't running for Mayor afterall, save for a handful ha, there will be a time when they have to be accountable.
I'm still convinced he could have seriously rocked Wlad early with the way Wlad was coming in giving up height etc. Haye for all of the warranted backlash does have some savvy as not to run in like a bar room brawler but I think his truest self confidence or substance fell short big time behind rhetoric. Yes I know its easy for an arm chair fan sipping on coffee from the comfort of a desk top but none of us here are proclaiming ourselves the savoir of the heavyweight division. I think in the long run it may be the best thing to lose over distance for him rather then wipe it away saying he was caught with a big shot etc. The toe was a good punchline and he had to know it once it sunk in. Sayin something in the moment is one thing but just have to make sure to leave it there.
Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Listening to thet way he speaks on it I don't think he believes he can actually beat him. He banked self entirely on a ko punch with zero else to fall back on, like I said before the fight he looks "shook", un nerved. Almost sounds like he's very real about that Oct. retirement and just wants to cash out big?!
He definitely believes he can beat him. Haye has complete arrogance & self-confidence. He probably still can't quite work out how it's happened. Every other loss in his amateur & pro career could be rationalized away in his own mind, other than a toe, he's got nothing for this one to get away from the fact he was in with a better boxer.
Thats it though,aside from relying on a sharp tongue and a potent punch he's really set himself up for the downfall. Your right yeh, he really does come off as having no rationalization. His arrogance undermines self confidence...I just don't know if a guy can have both really.
Most successful boxers don't rationalize defeat though. You need that self-confidence & touch of arrogance to compete. Just a few weeks ago one of my team-mates seriously said that he thinks he could beat George Groves. This is a guy with just under 20 fights as an amateur.
Haye may have set himself up for a downfall, but he genuinely believed that he could win this fight or he wouldn't have said all of it. I'll say that I found his performance far less offensive than Hatton's against Pacquiao, which consisted of abandoning all he'd learnt since the age of 12 to charge around like a pub drunk.
I will say one thing, I think it's extremely unfair to expect fighters to say anything rational or clear immediately after a fight. They've just been getting hit, so of course they're going to be a bit all over the place. I know that if someone shoved a camera & microphone into my face after 3 rounds of an am fight, they'd probably get all sorts of incoherent bollocks.
Yeah I posted about this earlier. Pschologically speaking Haye, like many elite sportsmen is character disordered (as opposed to neurotic) meaning that for any failures he automatically looks outside of himself to external factors to blame. In terms of learning, and competition it's actually a very helpful trait to have, as losing and failing at anything in life is painful, and it's even more so if you think it's due to you own inadequacies. Haye's natural mindset is to look for outside factors to blame for his failures which actually protects his mind and self belief. I have no doubt that he genuinely believed his toe was the reason he lost, and it's probably better for him, should he come back that he continues to believe that as he will still have that self confidence that at his best he can beat anyone.
His mindset is one of the reasons he has got so far though, he's had setbacks, a couple of embarrassing past knockouts but he's not been beaten by them because he was able to rationalise them away.
Conversly I bet guys like Audley Harrison, Naseem Hamed, Zab Judah etc despite their bluster are more neurotic and badly affected by previous losses, believing it to be an internal weakness which is why they never took risks in fights after their losses, or in the case of Hamed simply never fought again.
Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
I think they call that looking for a scapegoat.
Re: Haye - Say's I talked the talk, but I didn't walk the walk!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
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Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
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Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Listening to thet way he speaks on it I don't think he believes he can actually beat him. He banked self entirely on a ko punch with zero else to fall back on, like I said before the fight he looks "shook", un nerved. Almost sounds like he's very real about that Oct. retirement and just wants to cash out big?!
He definitely believes he can beat him. Haye has complete arrogance & self-confidence. He probably still can't quite work out how it's happened. Every other loss in his amateur & pro career could be rationalized away in his own mind, other than a toe, he's got nothing for this one to get away from the fact he was in with a better boxer.
Thats it though,aside from relying on a sharp tongue and a potent punch he's really set himself up for the downfall. Your right yeh, he really does come off as having no rationalization. His arrogance undermines self confidence...I just don't know if a guy can have both really.
Most successful boxers don't rationalize defeat though. You need that self-confidence & touch of arrogance to compete. Just a few weeks ago one of my team-mates seriously said that he thinks he could beat George Groves. This is a guy with just under 20 fights as an amateur.
Haye may have set himself up for a downfall, but he genuinely believed that he could win this fight or he wouldn't have said all of it. I'll say that I found his performance far less offensive than Hatton's against Pacquiao, which consisted of abandoning all he'd learnt since the age of 12 to charge around like a pub drunk.
I will say one thing, I think it's extremely unfair to expect fighters to say anything rational or clear immediately after a fight. They've just been getting hit, so of course they're going to be a bit all over the place. I know that if someone shoved a camera & microphone into my face after 3 rounds of an am fight, they'd probably get all sorts of incoherent bollocks.
Yeah I posted about this earlier. Pschologically speaking Haye, like many elite sportsmen is character disordered (as opposed to neurotic) meaning that for any failures he automatically looks outside of himself to external factors to blame. In terms of learning, and competition it's actually a very helpful trait to have, as losing and failing at anything in life is painful, and it's even more so if you think it's due to you own inadequacies. Haye's natural mindset is to look for outside factors to blame for his failures which actually protects his mind and self belief. I have no doubt that he genuinely believed his toe was the reason he lost, and it's probably better for him, should he come back that he continues to believe that as he will still have that self confidence that at his best he can beat anyone.
His mindset is one of the reasons he has got so far though, he's had setbacks, a couple of embarrassing past knockouts but he's not been beaten by them because he was able to rationalise them away.
Conversly I bet guys like Audley Harrison, Naseem Hamed, Zab Judah etc despite their bluster are more neurotic and badly affected by previous losses, believing it to be an internal weakness which is why they never took risks in fights after their losses, or in the case of Hamed simply never fought again.
Does this blaming outside factors tho not hinder your abbility to improve, since you don't need to imrove in your own mind since it wasn't you yourself that failed.
Yeah definitely it can. It also often leads to failed relationships as well as such people often usually blame the other for everything.
If he uses it as an excuse not learn it will hinder him, but hearing him talk in the past, for all his bravado he hasn't ever come across like that. He's always acknowledged that Wlad would knock him out if he landed for example and so the strategy had to start with not getting hit. I think he has a realistic assessment of his abilities along with a healhy ability to defer blame for a loss onto to outside factors.
