Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
moving up in weight while beating current and former world champs garners more respect from me than a guy who's clearing out a shit division and fighting former domestic champions.
moving up in weight when you're already bigger than everyone in that division doesn't really do much for me, which is exactly what Donaire is doing, he should have made the move up in weight ages ago, where as Martinez is already fighting at his natural or a bit above his natural weight, his jump from 154 to 160 was already the same amount weight added on as Donaire's 2 weight jumps
real question is how is beating two guys who aren't considered the top guys in a division any better than sparking an undefeated fighter who has good boxing ability and a size advantage, and the #3 guy at MW? and then going on to STOP both of them
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
The real test is, name someone P4P besides Pacquiao, (I don't count Mayweather, he doesn't fight often enough) who deserves to be ranked higher than Martinez, there really isn't anyone.
floyd mayweather
manny pacquiao
juan manuel marquez
nonito donaire
wlad klitchko
martinez has looked less than gifted against his last two opponents who are B level fighters at best. the ease with which macklin and barker were able to connect with martinez' head and body doesn't inspire much confidence. if he were to be put in the ring p4p against any of the above fighters i see fairly clear losses for martinez on all counts.
Eh, you just come off as someone who doesn't like Martinez, most of the P4P rankings have Martinez @ #3., those are just the facts.
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
moving up in weight while beating current and former world champs garners more respect from me than a guy who's clearing out a shit division and fighting former domestic champions.
Do you give a lot of value to WBO/WBA/WBC trinkets? I don't. Objectively, I thought Macklin beat the number two ranked middleweight, Felix Sturm. Thus, even if he doesn't have a belt now, I hold him in high regard in the division.
Dzinziruk was a world champion, as you define it, when Martinez fought him.
Barker is better than his record suggests in my opinion, but I'll grant that is subjective.
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
The real test is, name someone P4P besides Pacquiao, (I don't count Mayweather, he doesn't fight often enough) who deserves to be ranked higher than Martinez, there really isn't anyone.
floyd mayweather
manny pacquiao
juan manuel marquez
nonito donaire
wlad klitchko
martinez has looked less than gifted against his last two opponents who are B level fighters at best.
the ease with which macklin and barker were able to connect with martinez' head and body doesn't inspire much confidence. if he were to be put in the ring p4p against any of the above fighters i see fairly clear losses for martinez on all counts.
I agree with ratcatrant's responses in full. I'd just add that Marquez, much as I love watching him, gets hit way more than Martinez, and against worse opposition (Katsidis anyone?).
Floyd and Pac are really the only two I could see above Martinez. I'd put Donaire as 4 (for now -- while I think he'll pick it back up, his last outing was extremely unimpressive; and the MRI showed that he did not, in fact, have a broken hand). And Wlad at 5.
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
The real test is, name someone P4P besides Pacquiao, (I don't count Mayweather, he doesn't fight often enough) who deserves to be ranked higher than Martinez, there really isn't anyone.
floyd mayweather
manny pacquiao
juan manuel marquez
nonito donaire
wlad klitchko
martinez has looked less than gifted against his last two opponents who are B level fighters at best.
the ease with which macklin and barker were able to connect with martinez' head and body doesn't inspire much confidence. if he were to be put in the ring p4p against any of the above fighters i see fairly clear losses for martinez on all counts.
I agree with ratcatrant's responses in full. I'd just add that Marquez, much as I love watching him, gets hit way more than Martinez, and against worse opposition (Katsidis anyone?).
Floyd and Pac are really the only two I could see above Martinez. I'd put Donaire as 4 (for now -- while I think he'll pick it back up, his last outing was extremely unimpressive; and the MRI showed that he did not, in fact, have a broken hand). And Wlad at 5.
How about Ward and Marquez?
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
guess we'll see what happens if martinez ever fights a top fighter... cause from where i sit he's just not that good.
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
guess we'll see what happens if martinez ever fights a top fighter... cause from where i sit he's just not that good.
Just so we're clear, he beat Kelly Pavlik when he was the lineal middleweight champion, and he beat Paul Williams when he was top 5 p4p on most lists.
Who do you want to see him face?
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
I reckon in addition to Macklin and Barker, Dzinziruk, Williams, and Pavlik must all be fucking bums. :-X
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
The real test is, name someone P4P besides Pacquiao, (I don't count Mayweather, he doesn't fight often enough) who deserves to be ranked higher than Martinez, there really isn't anyone.
floyd mayweather
manny pacquiao
juan manuel marquez
nonito donaire
wlad klitchko
martinez has looked less than gifted against his last two opponents who are B level fighters at best.
the ease with which macklin and barker were able to connect with martinez' head and body doesn't inspire much confidence. if he were to be put in the ring p4p against any of the above fighters i see fairly clear losses for martinez on all counts.
I agree with ratcatrant's responses in full. I'd just add that Marquez, much as I love watching him, gets hit way more than Martinez, and against worse opposition (Katsidis anyone?).
Floyd and Pac are really the only two I could see above Martinez. I'd put Donaire as 4 (for now -- while I think he'll pick it back up, his last outing was extremely unimpressive; and the MRI showed that he did not, in fact, have a broken hand). And Wlad at 5.
How about Ward and Marquez?
I guess I'd put Ward at 6, though I'm not super committed on that because Kessler and Froch really aren't on the same level as the opponents the top 5 guys have faced (except Wlad, but that's where consistency and longevity come into play). I would love to see Ward move up and fight the Hopkins/Dawson winner (I expect Dawson). To me, that would do way more to solidify his P4P status than fighting Bute, who's even less proven than Kessler or Froch.
Marquez, I don't know. I think he will lose (again) soon, to someone not in the p4p ratings. He obviously has Pacquiao's number but he has not looked P4P-good against anyone else recently. And I really don't think it's fair to completely ignore the embarrassment against Floyd. We can discount it, sure, but the size advantage alone doesn't account for him losing every single second of the fight. I think he matches up poorly against technical boxers. Who's the last one he fought before Floyd -- Chris John? I'd pick Robert Guerrero to beat him tomorrow. I might put Hopkins and Vitali ahead of him on the P4P list. If Dawson looks impressive beating Hopkins, I'd put him up there too.
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
guess we'll see what happens if martinez ever fights a top fighter... cause from where i sit he's just not that good.
Just so we're clear, he beat Kelly Pavlik when he was the lineal middleweight champion, and he beat Paul Williams when he was top 5 p4p on most lists.
Who do you want to see him face?
haha
Exactly. Well said.
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
guess we'll see what happens if martinez ever fights a top fighter... cause from where i sit he's just not that good.
Just so we're clear, he beat Kelly Pavlik when he was the lineal middleweight champion, and he beat Paul Williams when he was top 5 p4p on most lists.
Who do you want to see him face?
haha
Exactly. Well said.
i see my post wasn't clear. there's no denying martinez has had a couple of spectacular wins (and a loss and a draw) against against a few of top level opponents a few years ago. what i meant to say was that i think he may be slipping based on his most recent performances. and we'll see how he fares in the future if and when he faces to level opposition again. because he's performed what i feel to be poorly against some basic b level fighters. which i feel lessens his credibility in the P4P rankings. sorry about the confusion on my part.
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
guess we'll see what happens if martinez ever fights a top fighter... cause from where i sit he's just not that good.
Just so we're clear, he beat Kelly Pavlik when he was the lineal middleweight champion, and he beat Paul Williams when he was top 5 p4p on most lists.
Who do you want to see him face?
haha
Exactly. Well said.
i see my post wasn't clear. there's no denying martinez has had a couple of spectacular wins (and a loss and a draw) against against a few of top level opponents a few years ago. what i meant to say was that i think he may be slipping based on his most recent performances. and we'll see how he fares in the future if and when he faces to level opposition again. because he's performed what i feel to be poorly against some basic b level fighters. which i feel lessens his credibility in the P4P rankings. sorry about the confusion on my part.
Ruthless, I get your point. I wasn't 100% clear either. I believe he comes on late in fights because a function of his style is that it takes him rounds to figure fighters out. He needs time to find openings. If Macklin had been his usual self, and bum-rushed Sergio, the fight may have been much shorter because he would have left himself open earlier in the fight. Boxers take longer to figure out. The downside of the style is that he leaves himself too little room for error. In the first Paul Williams fight, he didn't completely have Paul Williams figured out by the end of the fight, although I scored the fight for Martinez. As an aside, in the Kermit Cintron fight, he knocked Cintron out in the middle rounds because he had figured it out. It just wasn't called a knock out. If I follow you, you believe that this is more a function of slipping than a style thing. That's fair. We can agree to disagree. Who do you want to see Sergio fight or who at or around his weight class do you believe would be a higher level of opposition and provide a stern test?
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
guess we'll see what happens if martinez ever fights a top fighter... cause from where i sit he's just not that good.
Just so we're clear, he beat Kelly Pavlik when he was the lineal middleweight champion, and he beat Paul Williams when he was top 5 p4p on most lists.
Who do you want to see him face?
haha
Exactly. Well said.
i see my post wasn't clear. there's no denying martinez has had a couple of spectacular wins (and a loss and a draw) against against a few of top level opponents a few years ago. what i meant to say was that i think he may be slipping based on his most recent performances. and we'll see how he fares in the future if and when he faces to level opposition again. because he's performed what i feel to be poorly against some basic b level fighters. which i feel lessens his credibility in the P4P rankings. sorry about the confusion on my part.
Ruthless, I get your point. I wasn't 100% clear either. I believe he comes on late in fights because a function of his style is that
it takes him rounds to figure fighters out. He needs time to find openings.
If Macklin had been his usual self, and
bum-rushed Sergio, the fight may have been much shorter because he would have left himself open earlier in the fight. Boxers take longer to figure out. The
downside of the style is that
he leaves himself too little room for error. In the first Paul Williams fight, he didn't completely have Paul Williams figured out by the end of the fight, although I scored the fight for Martinez. As an aside, in the Kermit Cintron fight, he knocked Cintron out in the middle rounds because he had figured it out. It just wasn't called a knock out. If I follow you, you believe that this is more a function of slipping than a style thing. That's fair. We can agree to disagree. Who do you want to see Sergio fight or who at or around his weight class do you believe would be a higher level of opposition and provide a stern test?
the bold text that i have highlighted is the part that makes me believe that martinez is not that good and not deserving of that P4P status. its fair to say that any fighter would fair better if his opponents were more reckless and left themselves open to counter punching. the fact that macklin is a less than stellar fighter and was able to cause martinez trouble because he didn't just bum rush him demonstrates that martinez isn't the factor in his fights as much as his opponent's performance.
as for the williams rematch...that was a well timed lucky punch. he didn't land that because he planned to after, he landed it because williams wasn't even watching what he was doing. in martinez you see calculated genius. i see luck and perseverance. they say you gotta be good to be lucky---but luck does not equal P4P greatness.
as for who i want to see sergio fight... i don't care. the fact that he has little strong opposition at his chosen weight class isn't my concern. but the fact that he can clean out a division with no depth doesn't ensure his P4P status.
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
guess we'll see what happens if martinez ever fights a top fighter... cause from where i sit he's just not that good.
Just so we're clear, he beat Kelly Pavlik when he was the lineal middleweight champion, and he beat Paul Williams when he was top 5 p4p on most lists.
Who do you want to see him face?
haha
Exactly. Well said.
i see my post wasn't clear. there's no denying martinez has had a couple of spectacular wins (and a loss and a draw) against against a few of top level opponents a few years ago. what i meant to say was that i think he may be slipping based on his most recent performances. and we'll see how he fares in the future if and when he faces to level opposition again. because he's performed what i feel to be poorly against some basic b level fighters. which i feel lessens his credibility in the P4P rankings. sorry about the confusion on my part.
Ruthless, I get your point. I wasn't 100% clear either. I believe he comes on late in fights because a function of his style is that
it takes him rounds to figure fighters out. He needs time to find openings.
If Macklin had been his usual self, and
bum-rushed Sergio, the fight may have been much shorter because he would have left himself open earlier in the fight. Boxers take longer to figure out. The
downside of the style is that
he leaves himself too little room for error. In the first Paul Williams fight, he didn't completely have Paul Williams figured out by the end of the fight, although I scored the fight for Martinez. As an aside, in the Kermit Cintron fight, he knocked Cintron out in the middle rounds because he had figured it out. It just wasn't called a knock out. If I follow you, you believe that this is more a function of slipping than a style thing. That's fair. We can agree to disagree. Who do you want to see Sergio fight or who at or around his weight class do you believe would be a higher level of opposition and provide a stern test?
the bold text that i have highlighted is the part that makes me believe that martinez is not that good and not deserving of that P4P status. its fair to say that any fighter would fair better if his opponents were more reckless and left themselves open to counter punching. the fact that macklin is a less than stellar fighter and was able to cause martinez trouble because he didn't just bum rush him demonstrates that martinez isn't the factor in his fights as much as his opponent's performance.
as for the williams rematch...
that was a well timed lucky punch. he didn't land that because he planned to after, he landed it because williams wasn't even watching what he was doing. in martinez you see calculated genius. i see luck and perseverance. they say you gotta be good to be lucky---but luck does not equal P4P greatness.
as for who i want to see sergio fight... i don't care. the fact that he has little strong opposition at his chosen weight class isn't my concern. but the fact that he can clean out a division with no depth doesn't ensure his P4P status.
How can a well-timed punch be lucky? Sergio is a counter-puncher and he had him timed. NO doubt. There is NO debate there. Watch the highlights of the first fight on youtube. You'll see Sergio landing that punch multiple times.
Why do you consider Macklin pedestrian? I say Macklin gives any middleweight from top to bottom of the top ten a tough fight.
What did Sergio do wrong? Most people predicted a late-round KO and that's exactly what happened.
Sergio is the best of the crop at two weight classes meriting p4p ranking.
He's like Rodney Dangerfield - he can't get no respect.
Re: Why is HBO so bias against Sergio Martinez ?
obviously well timed... or else it wouldn't have been a ko punch.
lucky cause i don't think he wrote about it in his diary the night before.
he ain't no rodney dangerfield.... more like jimmy kimmel.
