We Tyson backers rest our case!
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We Tyson backers rest our case!
Imagine if Ali chilled out on the ropes for 8 rounds against a Prime Tyson? ;D
Here's the thing though 'Big' George in his comeback was never knocked down, never KO'd, never stopped at all...the guys that beat 40+ year old Foreman had to stick and move....and that kind of fight ain't to Mike Tyson's strength.
Now Tyson on the other hand, when he was beaten he was beaten by guys who took what he threw, fired back, and didn't back down.....hmmmm who does THAT remind me of?
Could Tyson's power have affected Foreman? Sure. Could Foreman's power have affected Tyson? ABSOLUTELY! Who had the better chin at that point? That's up for debate actually.
I say Foreman wins because everything mentally and psychologically that was irking Tyson, Foreman had already been through and come to grips with....Foreman wasn't the same after losing to Ali UNTIL his comeback and even then he didn't want to hurt anyone but once he got back in the groove he was better than ever. Tyson really never recovered that we could see, he was still a good fighter, but the peak of the division eluded him....it didn't elude Foreman.
Ali wouldn't have lasted 2 rounds doing that shit. Tyson's speed would have ate him alive. He'd destroy him with that brilliant right hook body, right uppercut combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
Tyson had the speed of Ali with the power of George Foreman... what a combination!
It might have been a good thing for Ali though Tyson would have smashed him so bad he probably would have retired without the extra 5 years of taking punishment, and maybe he could have had a better quality of life after boxing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjCCJJf2Zfk
I defiantly understand where you are coming from Foreman had a sold chin but even this version of Tyson could put some damage on George. A peak Tyson would not have stood in front of George. Tyson punched and moved from different sides. George would try and push Tyson back but that would not cause Mike the distress it cause Frazier because Tyson had more to his skills than Joe.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Really? Foreman steered Frazier not because Frazier was unskilled, it was because Frazier was rushing in and Foreman turned him, pivoted, and let the bombs go before Joe had reset himself. Tyson might have quicker feet but again Foreman had the longer arms, longer reach, it would be like the Falkland Islands.....Foreman would set up outside of Tyson's range and let loose on him....could Tyson bob and weave his way inside....maybe but there George can tie him up and lean on him or ole Tyson to the side the way he did Joe and the manner in which he did that gave Frazier no chance to retaliate, it threw him off balance and he had to completely reset and work his way back in vs George. Tyson used angles, yes, but he was NEVER a fighter who fought going backwards like an Ali or Lennox Lewis, or Klitschko brother....Tyson was never the stick and move sweet science guy. Did he have good defense? Sure, but his defense was a high guard and head movement, not using his footwork to get out of the way. Similarly Joe Frazier was never a guy that used footwork to get out of the way it was a Philly Shell/Cross block defense and continuous headmovement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Tyson would connect on Foreman, but at GREAT risk to being caught on the way in...and on the way in Tyson would have to avoid the 1-2 of Foreman and once in Tyson would have to avoid the uppercut. Once inside how does Tyson work out? Tyson would typically rip off a combination and tie up or if the combination did damage he'd circle to a side to let loose another combination....tying up vs any version of Foreman is bad news simply because he's bigger and stronger. Circling out even vs a hurt Foreman is tough because he had KO power in both hands and he could unload a punch that even if blocked would knock you so badly off balance that it would give George the chance to load up for another one.
I re-watched some of Foreman's comeback fights a few days ago. It was really impressive what he managed to do at his age. He was very ring savvy and very defensively sound: he read punches well and was able to cover up a lot of his body with those big ass arms of his.
To anyone that thinks he could keep Tyson from getting on the inside, you're dreaming though. Foreman couldn't keep anyone from getting in on the inside unless he caught them coming in.
We can talk about who did what, who beat who, who got punched by who, who fought someone comparable to who, ect ect ect. Giving em the old eye test (which is and always will be the best way to predict a fight), I just can't see Foreman winning. Mike had the speed and he had the defence. Foreman had some success with Holyfield (who tended to stand upright and was never hard to hit) and of course knocked out Moorer, a guy who had a weak chin and mediocre defence. I just can't see Foreman landing that much on Tyson, who was constantly bobbing back and forth. It's like, come on. Haha.
Frazier actually bobbed more than Tyson. George had good timing ;) No problem for him.
You are describing a young Foreman, this old George was slower and more vulnerable.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongReally? Foreman steered Frazier not because Frazier was unskilled, it was because Frazier was rushing in and Foreman turned him, pivoted, and let the bombs go before Joe had reset himself. Tyson might have quicker feet but again Foreman had the longer arms, longer reach, it would be like the Falkland Islands.....Foreman would set up outside of Tyson's range and let loose on him....could Tyson bob and weave his way inside....maybe but there George can tie him up and lean on him or ole Tyson to the side the way he did Joe and the manner in which he did that gave Frazier no chance to retaliate, it threw him off balance and he had to completely reset and work his way back in vs George. Tyson used angles, yes, but he was NEVER a fighter who fought going backwards like an Ali or Lennox Lewis, or Klitschko brother....Tyson was never the stick and move sweet science guy. Did he have good defense? Sure, but his defense was a high guard and head movement, not using his footwork to get out of the way. Similarly Joe Frazier was never a guy that used footwork to get out of the way it was a Philly Shell/Cross block defense and continuous headmovement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Tyson would connect on Foreman, but at GREAT risk to being caught on the way in...and on the way in Tyson would have to avoid the 1-2 of Foreman and once in Tyson would have to avoid the uppercut. Once inside how does Tyson work out? Tyson would typically rip off a combination and tie up or if the combination did damage he'd circle to a side to let loose another combination....tying up vs any version of Foreman is bad news simply because he's bigger and stronger. Circling out even vs a hurt Foreman is tough because he had KO power in both hands and he could unload a punch that even if blocked would knock you so badly off balance that it would give George the chance to load up for another one.
And you were saying "A peak Tyson"....in 1991 Mike Tyson wasn't ripping off combinations, he wasn't moving his head all the time, he was a knock out or get knocked out fighter. I don't see Tyson knocking out any version of George Foreman. Tyson's best bet, his very best bet would be to out point an old Foreman....but I don't think he was psychologically strong enough to do that and I don't think he trained hard enough to earn a win like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYou are describing a young Foreman, this old George was slower and more vulnerable.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongReally? Foreman steered Frazier not because Frazier was unskilled, it was because Frazier was rushing in and Foreman turned him, pivoted, and let the bombs go before Joe had reset himself. Tyson might have quicker feet but again Foreman had the longer arms, longer reach, it would be like the Falkland Islands.....Foreman would set up outside of Tyson's range and let loose on him....could Tyson bob and weave his way inside....maybe but there George can tie him up and lean on him or ole Tyson to the side the way he did Joe and the manner in which he did that gave Frazier no chance to retaliate, it threw him off balance and he had to completely reset and work his way back in vs George. Tyson used angles, yes, but he was NEVER a fighter who fought going backwards like an Ali or Lennox Lewis, or Klitschko brother....Tyson was never the stick and move sweet science guy. Did he have good defense? Sure, but his defense was a high guard and head movement, not using his footwork to get out of the way. Similarly Joe Frazier was never a guy that used footwork to get out of the way it was a Philly Shell/Cross block defense and continuous headmovement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Tyson would connect on Foreman, but at GREAT risk to being caught on the way in...and on the way in Tyson would have to avoid the 1-2 of Foreman and once in Tyson would have to avoid the uppercut. Once inside how does Tyson work out? Tyson would typically rip off a combination and tie up or if the combination did damage he'd circle to a side to let loose another combination....tying up vs any version of Foreman is bad news simply because he's bigger and stronger. Circling out even vs a hurt Foreman is tough because he had KO power in both hands and he could unload a punch that even if blocked would knock you so badly off balance that it would give George the chance to load up for another one.
But hey you see it your way I see it my way, I just think with everything Tyson went through it was more fresh in his mind than it was in George's mind and I see that hurting Tyson.
He bobbed up and down, which left him open for the uppercut!Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Tyson went side to side, where Foreman's punches would slide by the wayside.
George Foreman is one of the strongest men of all time, a true physical freak!
Badder than old King Kong! Meaner than a junkyard dog.
Agreed it was not a peak Tyson who did throw devastating combinations but he was not that far off that he could not fight good hard 12 rounds. That is why I think it would possibly go the distance but Tyson could stop a bruised and battered Old George Foreman.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongAnd you were saying "A peak Tyson"....in 1991 Mike Tyson wasn't ripping off combinations, he wasn't moving his head all the time, he was a knock out or get knocked out fighter. I don't see Tyson knocking out any version of George Foreman. Tyson's best bet, his very best bet would be to out point an old Foreman....but I don't think he was psychologically strong enough to do that and I don't think he trained hard enough to earn a win like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYou are describing a young Foreman, this old George was slower and more vulnerable.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongReally? Foreman steered Frazier not because Frazier was unskilled, it was because Frazier was rushing in and Foreman turned him, pivoted, and let the bombs go before Joe had reset himself. Tyson might have quicker feet but again Foreman had the longer arms, longer reach, it would be like the Falkland Islands.....Foreman would set up outside of Tyson's range and let loose on him....could Tyson bob and weave his way inside....maybe but there George can tie him up and lean on him or ole Tyson to the side the way he did Joe and the manner in which he did that gave Frazier no chance to retaliate, it threw him off balance and he had to completely reset and work his way back in vs George. Tyson used angles, yes, but he was NEVER a fighter who fought going backwards like an Ali or Lennox Lewis, or Klitschko brother....Tyson was never the stick and move sweet science guy. Did he have good defense? Sure, but his defense was a high guard and head movement, not using his footwork to get out of the way. Similarly Joe Frazier was never a guy that used footwork to get out of the way it was a Philly Shell/Cross block defense and continuous headmovement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Tyson would connect on Foreman, but at GREAT risk to being caught on the way in...and on the way in Tyson would have to avoid the 1-2 of Foreman and once in Tyson would have to avoid the uppercut. Once inside how does Tyson work out? Tyson would typically rip off a combination and tie up or if the combination did damage he'd circle to a side to let loose another combination....tying up vs any version of Foreman is bad news simply because he's bigger and stronger. Circling out even vs a hurt Foreman is tough because he had KO power in both hands and he could unload a punch that even if blocked would knock you so badly off balance that it would give George the chance to load up for another one.
But hey you see it your way I see it my way, I just think with everything Tyson went through it was more fresh in his mind than it was in George's mind and I see that hurting Tyson.
Show me/name one fight where Tyson maintained his head movement/bob and weave past the sixth round, even when he was with Kevin Rooney. The eye test should tell you that while Tyson was impressive vs scared fighters and/or guys with weak chins, he lost interest and became discouraged after 6 or 7 rounds. When guys were still fighting back after 6 or 7 and trying to win, he lost. George makes it 6 or 7 for sure and is still trying to knock his head off. George in the later rounds by knockout.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerHe bobbed up and down, which left him open for the uppercut!Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Tyson went side to side, where Foreman's punches would slide by the wayside.
Match Tyson against Ken Norton, Alex Stewart, Tommy Morrison, Michael Moorer, Jeremy Williams...etc., and the guy will look unbeatable. Put him in with Evander, George Foreman, Ali...etc., n he gets beat. Styles make fights.