ICB Where did you learn to play chess mate?

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by X

I have been watching this thread with some interest now, and have kept quiet so far.

But, I am actually Garry Kasparov.

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Hey Garry. I have a question if you don't mind

In your 1982 book on the Scheveningen Sicilian, you suggested that a certain move for Black was not that good, then you played that very move in your first game of the first match against Karpov in 1984. What are your thoughts about that? I'm sure you recall the move.

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Yes, no problem. I am actually the worlds foremost expert on the Scheveningen Sicilian. I like to use it against players like Karpov as it is a very aggressive opening and it allows him less time to develop his pieces.

Karpov always likes to defend from a solid and dymmetrical base, and he then attacks up the flanks. This opening makes it harder for him to do that initial organisation. It's a bit like countering Jeff Lacy before he can get his feet set properly. The book was a double bluff, just like my good friend Muhammad Ali's claim that he would dance for 15 rounds against George Foreman.

Will you vote for me as President of Armenia incidentally??

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Originally Posted by X

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by X

I have been watching this thread with some interest now, and have kept quiet so far.

But, I am actually Garry Kasparov.

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Hey Garry. I have a question if you don't mind

In your 1982 book on the Scheveningen Sicilian, you suggested that a certain move for Black was not that good, then you played that very move in your first game of the first match against Karpov in 1984. What are your thoughts about that? I'm sure you recall the move.

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Yes, no problem. I am actually the worlds foremost expert on the Scheveningen Sicilian. I like to use it against players like Karpov as it is a very aggressive opening and it allows him less time to develop his pieces.

Karpov always likes to defend from a solid and dymmetrical base, and he then attacks up the flanks. This opening makes it harder for him to do that initial organisation. It's a bit like countering Jeff Lacy before he can get his feet set properly. The book was a double bluff, just like my good friend Muhammad Ali's claim that he would dance for 15 rounds against George Foreman.

Will you vote for me as President of Armenia incidentally??

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I have no idea what that even means but it sounded cool :cool:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I have no idea what that even means

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That makes two of us then (I misstyped 'symmetrical', but also don't have the slightest idea what I'm going on about.)

I still reckon that was more convincing than poor old ICE ;D

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Originally Posted by X

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I have no idea what that even means

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That makes two of us then (I misstyped 'symmetrical', but also don't have the slightest idea what I'm going on about.)

I still reckon that was more convincing than poor old ICE ;D

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I'm not sure, I think Ice's picture of the back of a boxers head wearing a headguard was a total refutation of all claims made against him. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by X

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I have no idea what that even means

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That makes two of us then (I misstyped 'symmetrical', but also don't have the slightest idea what I'm going on about.)

I still reckon that was more convincing than poor old ICE ;D

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I'm not sure, I think Ice's picture of the back of a boxers head wearing a headguard was a total refutation of all claims made against him. :rolleyes:

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If he'd a pic of him in a boxing ring playing chess with his right hand & bouncing a basketball in the other I would have believed him ;D

I know ICB apparently stood for Ice Cold Boxing, but I think he was actually a Keyser Soze character pulling some elaborate, lie-strewn web of deceit to confuse us before getting away for good.

Hence it was in front of our noses the whole time, I Chat Bollocks. Cue dramatic music as he speeds away with his Mr Kobayashi (leftylee) leaving us all like helpless sheep dumbfounded.

Or maybe he was just a bredda who liked to tell porkys

All this over chess... gay :p

Hey guys here's a picture of my last event.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...mary/6_461.jpg

Don't ask which one I am.

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Originally Posted by killersheep

Hey guys here's a picture of my last event.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...mary/6_461.jpg

Don't ask which one I am.

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The one on the left is Andy Costello who I finished equal second with in a tournament in November, he became world heavyweight chess champ a couple weeks later winning by checkmate in the 2nd round.

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by X

I have been watching this thread with some interest now, and have kept quiet so far.

But, I am actually Garry Kasparov.

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Hey Garry. I have a question if you don't mind

In your 1982 book on the Scheveningen Sicilian, you suggested that a certain move for Black was not that good, then you played that very move in your first game of the first match against Karpov in 1984. What are your thoughts about that? I'm sure you recall the move.

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I remember an article regarding Kasparov. The article mentioned about how he had slightly declined because of memory problem. It might be related to that sicilian.:cool:

okay here's my analysis of the game:
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bc4 Bc5
4. d3 d6
5. Nc3 Nf6
6. Bg5 h6
7. B xf6 g xf6


Using 7.... Qxf6 is not advisable because when Nc3 goes to d5, the Black queen will be forced to go back to d8. Besides, it's too early to use the queen. IMO.
8. Nc3-d5 Be6


Be6 provides threat/defense against Nd5 and to support the pawn at f8.

9. Qd2 h5


I've placed Q to d2 to free it up. Black answered with h5 to free the rook from guarding it and to make a possible push of the black bishop to g4. Possible move for black would also be h5-h4
10. h4 Bxd5


Possible move for black would also be h5-h4 so I pushed my pawn to h4. black answered with Bxd5 so there would be no defense on b4. A possible threat by black's bishop to b4 would destroy the pawn structure of white's queen side.
11. Bxd5 Qc8


Black's trying to free his queen. Best way is to put it at c8.
12. Bxc6+ b7xc6
Black could put his bishop to b6 and he would have a very strong pawn structure. Opening the b flank by 12. ..... b7xc6 is strong because Black knows I would have to castle queen side.


Bilbo, black was playing very solid. I don't know why you're saying it's a schoolboy's game. :cool:

13. a3 Qg4


I answered back with a3 coz there's threat to b4. Black's queen to g4 is forcing me to castle queen side.
14. Rh1-g1 0-0
So I answered Rh1 to g1. I had no choice. Putting black's rook on g8 would be disastrous for me.
15. 0-0-0 f5


I had to to castle now to strengthen my rooks. This is risky because b flank is already open. F5.... black wants to control the center. He also wants the queen to be free on the g6. Q-g6 would mean defense for the 6th row
16. d4 Bxd4


Knowing that he wants to control the center, I answered d4. This is the winning move. black should capture d4 or else his pawn structure would be totally destroyed because I have the d flank/column now.
17. Nxd4 exd4


Needs no explanation.
18. exf5 Qxh4
I am winning now. @move 17 black already knows I'm winning. Qxh4 was his way of protecting his pawn at d4.I don't see any blunder here.
19. Rh1 Qg4 (edited: sorry)


I threatened his queen by Rh1. Best counter is to place his queen at g4.
20. f6 C5
I moved my pawn to f6 to counter attack and to open up my queen. He defended his pawn at d4 with that c5.He also wanted to free his queen for a possible move to g6 in case I move my queen to h6.
21. Qh6 Qg6


So I did put my queen to h6 for a possible exchange of queens. Material wise, I will be at a disadvantage in the end game. I was relying on my positional advantage and a possible mate after 6 moves.


22. Qxh5 Qxh5
I captured h5 for a possible mate on Rd1 to h1



23. Rh1x h5 Rf8-e8


Black knows he will be mated by 5 moves.
24. Rd1 -h1 Re8-e1+
Black's hopeless now.


25. Rh1-e1 d4-d3
26. Re1-h1 d3-d2+
27. Kc1 xd2 Ra8 - e8
28. Rh5-h8 1-0

My analysis of your game with Bilbo:
White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5

Same move I’ve made eh. Black’s playing it very well. Would you agree now Bilbo that the opening of black is strong?

10.b4 Bb6

B4!? White is losing control of the center game.
11.a4 Nd4

A4 and b4 is too aggressive. This will suffer in the end-game with white controlling the center.
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 exd5

I’m excited how black would castle or would it castle?. White could not castle anymore queenside. B4 is bad move. Castling king side is way too dangerous with the g flank opened for the black rook.

Black's pawn at h5 is way too dangerous with black's bishop lurking.

Yeah bruce, we decided to play out the position after Black's ninth move in your game, because we didn't really agree on some points about the play of your Computer program (Black). Guess what, we still don't really agree. As it stands, white is a pawn up, but at the moment his pawn position is not the greatest. I think Bilbo considers that Black's kingside, particlarly the h-pawn, is weak, positionally it might be true, it remains to be seen whether or not White can take advantage.

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Originally Posted by CGM

Yeah bruce, we decided to play out the position after Black's ninth move in your game, because we didn't really agree on some points about the play of your Computer program (Black). Guess what, we still don't really agree. As it stands, white is a pawn up, but at the moment his pawn position is not the greatest. I think Bilbo considers that Black's kingside, particlarly the h-pawn, is weak, positionally it might be true, it remains to be seen whether or not White can take advantage.

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He could have taken advantage had he followed my h4 move. Now, he's positionally at a disadvantaged. He could not hide his king anymore at queen side. black's bishop is in attacking position. It could have been neutralized had white castled at queen side.

By the way, the black's h-pawn is strong depending on how you would use it. With the current position, I am of the strong belief that it's strong.

White's pawns king side can now be destroyed.

I just couldn't believe that bilbo is rating black's moves (my computer) as below average.

White's b4 move is bad!!!! Followed by another bad move at a4.

Please refer to my first analysis for possible clues.

If you're familiar with the king's gambit, you can use your pawn at h5 in the same manner.

Is everyone a chess boffin on here apart from me? :confused:

I can play chess but I'm not particularly good. I played a bit in school and was about the second best there (out of those of us that actually played chess). There was a strange boy, who was always far too good for me. And he went to some kind of local chess club too.These days I can move the pieces around and maybe take a few pieces on the way. But as for strategies and really thinking about it properly I am nondescript. I play Scrabble much better! :D

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Originally Posted by miles

Is everyone a chess boffin on here apart from me? :confused:

I can play chess but I'm not particularly good. I played a bit in school and was about the second best there (out of those of us that actually played chess). There was a strange boy, who was always far too good for me. And he went to some kind of local chess club too.These days I can move the pieces around and maybe take a few pieces on the way. But as for strategies and really thinking about it properly I am nondescript. I play Scrabble much better! :D

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Don't worry miles, I'm also below average after many years of not playing chess.:cool:

I could hardly remember my favorite opening positions much less naming them.

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by CGM

Yeah bruce, we decided to play out the position after Black's ninth move in your game, because we didn't really agree on some points about the play of your Computer program (Black). Guess what, we still don't really agree. As it stands, white is a pawn up, but at the moment his pawn position is not the greatest. I think Bilbo considers that Black's kingside, particlarly the h-pawn, is weak, positionally it might be true, it remains to be seen whether or not White can take advantage.

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He could have taken advantage had he followed my h4 move. Now, he's positionally at a disadvantaged. He could not hide his king anymore at queen side. black's bishop is in attacking position. It could have been neutralized had white castled at queen side.

By the way, the black's h-pawn is strong depending on how you would use it. With the current position, I am of the strong belief that it's strong.

White's pawns king side can now be destroyed.

I just couldn't believe that bilbo is rating black's moves (my computer) as below average.

White's b4 move is bad!!!! Followed by another bad move at a4.

Please refer to my first analysis for possible clues.

If you're familiar with the king's gambit, you can use your pawn at h5 in the same manner.

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I'm not sure I would have played 9.Qd2 and 10.h4 Although it worked out for you in the end, I think Black's subsequent play kind of helped

As White I might have played somethng like 9.Nh4 10.c3 11.Qf3, and maybe even 12.Ne3, to try and occupy the square f5. Maybe I can't do it all right away, depending on how black plays

white could have moved b3 instead of b4.Anyway, it's true that your move usually depends on how your opponent moves. I could not remember the specific game but If my memory doesn't fail me, Polgar or some superGM made the same move on h4.

OK, well get that gameknot account done, and I look forward to playing you.

my school has put a restriction on games. I can not open gameknot here.wahhhhh.I can't even open yahoo games.

that means, i will be playing at home. sorry CGM. I'll activate the account later if my connection at home is good.

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Originally Posted by brucelee

My analysis of your game with Bilbo:
White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5

Same move I’ve made eh. Black’s playing it very well. Would you agree now Bilbo that the opening of black is strong?

10.b4 Bb6

B4!? White is losing control of the center game.
11.a4 Nd4

A4 and b4 is too aggressive. This will suffer in the end-game with white controlling the center.
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 exd5

I’m excited how black would castle or would it castle?. White could not castle anymore queenside. B4 is bad move. Castling king side is way too dangerous with the g flank opened for the black rook.

Black's pawn at h5 is way too dangerous with black's bishop lurking.

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No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by brucelee

My analysis of your game with Bilbo:
White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5

Same move I’ve made eh. Black’s playing it very well. Would you agree now Bilbo that the opening of black is strong?

10.b4 Bb6

B4!? White is losing control of the center game.
11.a4 Nd4

A4 and b4 is too aggressive. This will suffer in the end-game with white controlling the center.
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 exd5

I’m excited how black would castle or would it castle?. White could not castle anymore queenside. B4 is bad move. Castling king side is way too dangerous with the g flank opened for the black rook.

Black's pawn at h5 is way too dangerous with black's bishop lurking.

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No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

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I'll take your word for it Bilbo. I'll try to look for GMs playing this line.. and if I can't find anyone doing this line after a thorough research (it would take me at least a week because of my sked), I'll agree with you wholeheartedly.

Anyway, you're not a junior player anymore and i consider myself a junior player because I'm playing that line so you have a point.:cool:

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by brucelee

My analysis of your game with Bilbo:
White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5

Same move I’ve made eh. Black’s playing it very well. Would you agree now Bilbo that the opening of black is strong?

10.b4 Bb6

B4!? White is losing control of the center game.
11.a4 Nd4

A4 and b4 is too aggressive. This will suffer in the end-game with white controlling the center.
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 exd5

I’m excited how black would castle or would it castle?. White could not castle anymore queenside. B4 is bad move. Castling king side is way too dangerous with the g flank opened for the black rook.

Black's pawn at h5 is way too dangerous with black's bishop lurking.

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No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

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I'll take your word for it Bilbo. I'll try to look for GMs playing this line.. and if I can't find anyone doing this line after a thorough research (it would take me at least a week because of my sked), I'll agree with you wholeheartedly.

Anyway, you're not a junior player anymore and i consider myself a junior player because I'm playing that line so you have a point.:cool:

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I'm only a beginning player really Bruce, lightyears away from master level. I do play the Italian Game as black however and know the main opening lines.

You don't need to do a thorough search for the move, just the latest Megadatabse 2009 shows that after 6.Bxf6 white has replied with Qxf6 over 700 times compared to 16 times for gxf6. It's just not the best move in the position.

After Qxf6 Nd5 is pretty harmless just move the queen back to d8.

I'm quite surprised actually.

Ice seemed to be a nice genuine guy with good knowledge.

Well done to Bilbo and others for spotting his lies and exposing him. I never noticed anything, Probably because i am not as active on here as i used to be.

Just to let you know, Ice has a boxng account on boxingscene under the name of Burning Desire.

Adolf Albin vs Rudolf SpielmannVienna 1914 · Italian Game: Giuoco Pianissimo. Italian Four Knights Variation (C50) · 0-1
Esteban Canal vs Paul F JohnerKarlsbad 1929 · Italian Game: Giuoco Pianissimo. Canal Variation (C50) · 1-0


Okay. Qxf6 is canal variation of the giuoco piano.

It doesnt mean however that the computer made a wrong move when it it made gxf6.

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Originally Posted by brucelee

Adolf Albin vs Rudolf SpielmannVienna 1914 · Italian Game: Giuoco Pianissimo. Italian Four Knights Variation (C50) · 0-1
Esteban Canal vs Paul F JohnerKarlsbad 1929 · Italian Game: Giuoco Pianissimo. Canal Variation (C50) · 1-0


Okay. Qxf6 is canal variation of the giuoco piano.

It doesnt mean however that the computer made a wrong move when it it made gxf6.

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It didn't blunder but it made an anti positional objectively weaker move, if that was not the case then gxf6 would be another line in that opening but it simply is not.

It would be like white playing 1.e4 1.e5 2.d4 and black responding with d6, just not a good move and no GM would play it. Why deliberately and permanently weaken your kingside when you have a perfectly safe and non weakening way to take the piece?

Anyway its my belief that in the current position between me and CGM white is clearly better and black is fighting just to save the game imo.

Once the center is opened up Black's king is vulnurable everywhere which will probably force him to make exchanges to ward of attack and once the pieces are off it's a winning game for white in the endgame. If you take off the pieces, and take off black's e and f6 pawns along with white's d3 and d4 pawns its impossible to argue that white isn't clearly better.

Black will have weak pawns on d6 f6 and h5, 4 pawn islands to whites 3.

He needs to try and drum up on serious counterplay but I don't see how he can go about it.

Just for your information bro,

Skalli(MRC) vs Leko (HUN) Giuoco Piano (C54)

Leko won playing black with 9. Bxf6 gxf6 (World Chess Olympiad, Moscow Russia)

Leko is a superGM.:cool:

I wouldn't mind playing a game of chess, I need to get my brain into gear again for uni, so I signed up for a yahoo account. If anyone wants a game just send me a PM :)

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Originally Posted by brucelee

Just for your information bro,

Skalli(MRC) vs Leko (HUN) Giuoco Piano (C54)

Leko won playing black with 9. Bxf6 gxf6 (World Chess Olympiad, Moscow Russia)

Leko is a superGM.:cool:

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An entirely different position Bruce, and here Leko was playing a mainline, and one I've used myself and won.

The differences here are that firstly black has already castled, this is critical as now the king can go h8 where it will be completely safe as the white darksquared bishop has already gone. Secondly castling means the rooks are already connected and can be doubled along the g file. Thirdly black has brought his b8 knight over to the kingside as well and has the makings of a strong attack.

This is entirely different, none of these advantages were present in your game against Kasparov.

Compare Leko's position after move 9 with Kasparov's against you on move 9. They are world's apart. Leko's king is safe with Kh8 being a secure home, his rooks can come to the g file if necessary. In the event the knight exchange means obviously the king won't go to h8 in this particular game but you can see the idea.

In the Leko game he played it correctly and black is marginally better already by move 10.

No move is the same in every game you have to evaluate the differences.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by brucelee

My analysis of your game with Bilbo:
White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5

Same move I’ve made eh. Black’s playing it very well. Would you agree now Bilbo that the opening of black is strong?

10.b4 Bb6

B4!? White is losing control of the center game.
11.a4 Nd4

A4 and b4 is too aggressive. This will suffer in the end-game with white controlling the center.
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 exd5

I’m excited how black would castle or would it castle?. White could not castle anymore queenside. B4 is bad move. Castling king side is way too dangerous with the g flank opened for the black rook.

Black's pawn at h5 is way too dangerous with black's bishop lurking.

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No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

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I never said Black's position was good Bilbo, I was just challenging some of your assertions about certain moves and positions, such as ...

Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense

How can 9.Nd5 be extremly common when the position after 8...Be6 rarely occurs? 7...gxf6 changes the essential nature of the position, and traditional assessments of the move Nd5 for white no longer apply.

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by CGM

9...h5 might be played because Black wants to move the pawn away from the attack of the Queen, thus freeing up the rook. a subsequent ...h4 by black would prevent the knight from occupying h4 and thus controlling the square f5. Maybe black wants to push on to h3 with a view to weakening the White Kingside.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

9....h5 is just a poor move imo, it's wasting time and allows white to play 10.b4 forcing Bb6 followed by a4 which in turn forces a6 then Nxb6 and the black queenside is wrecked.

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Ok bud, I'm not so sure about that. Tell you what, we can put it to the test. I'll take the Black position after 9...h5. you send me your moves, and I'll keep this post up to date. I'll post a graphic of the chessbaord here, so if anyone is interested they can follow along. No need to rush through this, take your time, it may take a few days to get through this.

Here is the game so far.

White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5
10.b4 Bb6
11.a4 Nd4
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 ed Bd7
16.0-0 Qb6
17.de de
18.Kh1 Qd4
19.Qe3 Qb6
20.Qc5

last update 13:05 GMT, 02/25/2009

http://www3.sympatico.ca/game.jpghttp://www3.sympatico.ca/fredh/game.jpg

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OK, for those who are following the thread, Bilbo and I are playing out a position from brucelee's victory over his computer. Bilbo is playing brucelee's side, I am playing the computer's side. The first move to deviate from brucelee's game was 10.b4 by Bilbo.

White is up a pawn, and the Black king is a little vulnerable, which limits Black's options. Probably White has the advantage, but Black is not without resources.

Subsequent updates to the game will be made by editing this post, probably a couple more moves today.

Update: OK, we are calling this off. We discussed it and agree that 9...h5 is not a good move, at the very least not at this time. Sooner, or later, it's a different story that would have to be reconsidered.

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by brucelee

My analysis of your game with Bilbo:
White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5

Same move I’ve made eh. Black’s playing it very well. Would you agree now Bilbo that the opening of black is strong?

10.b4 Bb6

B4!? White is losing control of the center game.
11.a4 Nd4

A4 and b4 is too aggressive. This will suffer in the end-game with white controlling the center.
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 exd5

I’m excited how black would castle or would it castle?. White could not castle anymore queenside. B4 is bad move. Castling king side is way too dangerous with the g flank opened for the black rook.

Black's pawn at h5 is way too dangerous with black's bishop lurking.

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No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

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I never said Black's position was good Bilbo, I was just challenging some of your assertions about certain moves and positions, such as ...

Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense

How can 9.Nd5 be extremly common when the position after 8...Be6 rarely occurs? 7...gxf6 changes the essential nature of the position, and traditional assessments of the move Nd5 for white no longer apply.

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I'm not talking about Nd5 after gxf6 I'm talking about the mainline after 7.Qxf6. Bruce was saying Qxf6 is the wrong move because white can follow up with 8.Nd5. I was just saying it's long been known to be inoffensive if black knows the main line.

I wouldn't know what to do next.. I'd sac queen for queen cause i'm sexist.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

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I never said Black's position was good Bilbo, I was just challenging some of your assertions about certain moves and positions, such as ...

Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense

How can 9.Nd5 be extremly common when the position after 8...Be6 rarely occurs? 7...gxf6 changes the essential nature of the position, and traditional assessments of the move Nd5 for white no longer apply.

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I'm not talking about Nd5 after gxf6 I'm talking about the mainline after 7.Qxf6. Bruce was saying Qxf6 is the wrong move because white can follow up with 8.Nd5. I was just saying it's long been known to be inoffensive if black knows the main line.

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I stand corrected. Guiocco Piano is not exactly deep. Sure Black does OK if he knows the lines, but you can say that about a lot openings. Anyways, it's not totally inoffensive. In the main line after After 7...Qxf6 8.Nd5 Qd8 9.c3 9.a6 10.d4 Ba7 there is play in the position, and White has over 60% winning percentage here, including a large number of games played at the international master level and above, which is not bad.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

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I never said Black's position was good Bilbo, I was just challenging some of your assertions about certain moves and positions, such as ...

Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense

How can 9.Nd5 be extremly common when the position after 8...Be6 rarely occurs? 7...gxf6 changes the essential nature of the position, and traditional assessments of the move Nd5 for white no longer apply.

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I'm not talking about Nd5 after gxf6 I'm talking about the mainline after 7.Qxf6. Bruce was saying Qxf6 is the wrong move because white can follow up with 8.Nd5. I was just saying it's long been known to be inoffensive if black knows the main line.

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This was my comment regarding 7. .... Qxf6

Using 7.... Qxf6 is not advisable because when Nc3 goes to d5, the Black queen will be forced to go back to d8. Besides, it's too early to use the queen. IMO.

In my point of view and explaining the move of the computer, Qxf6 may not be advisable. I did not say it was wrong. The canal variation of giuoco piano suggests Qxf6. The use of Qx6 is okay and is being used by grandmasters but in my humble opinion, black loses 2 moves with that move.

I was just explaining that the computer answered differently through 7.... gxf6 and it is without any reason. It was not a schoolboy's move as you have claimed it is.

For the record, I won against the computer because it chooses gxf6 but it is without merit. I won because after the 17th move, I saw already a win. By the 21st move, I know I will win after 5 moves.

You were quick to judge and you repetitively insulted my game with the computer that's why I have to defend the computer's move.

For the record, I did set the computer's level to Kasparov and whether its moves are questionable or not, that I can not say for sure. Personally, I don't see any problem with those moves.

Just like what I've told you before, my abilities and knowledge in chess have already eroded because of inactivity. I haven't played chess for years and that could explain my lack of deeper understanding.

I was simply presenting a game I've won against a computer when I was still good(not excellent!) in chess.

Peace.

15 ed Bd7
16.0-0 Qb6

an alternative to this would be 16. ...... Rb8 for a possible move of b7-b5. Possible exchange of bishops so black can destroy the defense of white's bishop to his two pawns in d flank.
17.de de
18.Kh1 Qd4
19.Qe3 Qb6

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Originally Posted by brucelee

15 ed Bd7
16.0-0 Qb6

an alternative to this would be 16. ...... Rb8 for a possible move of b7-b5. Possible exchange of bishops so black can destroy the defense of white's bishop to his two pawns in d flank.

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I see your point, you might be right, but I wanted to leave open the possibility of castling Queenside. At this point I do not want to open up the position more while my King is still in the center. For example, the game could go 16...Rb8 17.R(f)e1 b5 18.axb5 Bxb5 19.Rxa7 and it seems to me that Black has lost another pawn and weakened his position, and Black still has to worry about the safety of his King.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CGM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brucelee

15 ed Bd7
16.0-0 Qb6

an alternative to this would be 16. ...... Rb8 for a possible move of b7-b5. Possible exchange of bishops so black can destroy the defense of white's bishop to his two pawns in d flank.

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I see your point, you might be right, but I wanted to leave open the possibility of castling Queenside. At this point I do not want to open up the position more while my King is still in the center. For example, the game could go 16...Rb8 17.R(f)e1 b5 18.axb5 Bxb5 19.Rxa7 and it seems to me that Black has lost another pawn and weakened his position, and Black still has to worry about the safety of his King.

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When is the next move in this game going to be made?.. you should have the board with the previous screenshot before you moved so that we can see what piece moved.. i'm intrigued now..

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Originally Posted by RP33

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by brucelee

15 ed Bd7
16.0-0 Qb6

an alternative to this would be 16. ...... Rb8 for a possible move of b7-b5. Possible exchange of bishops so black can destroy the defense of white's bishop to his two pawns in d flank.

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I see your point, you might be right, but I wanted to leave open the possibility of castling Queenside. At this point I do not want to open up the position more while my King is still in the center. For example, the game could go 16...Rb8 17.R(f)e1 b5 18.axb5 Bxb5 19.Rxa7 and it seems to me that Black has lost another pawn and weakened his position, and Black still has to worry about the safety of his King.

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When is the next move in this game going to be made?.. you should have the board with the previous screenshot before you moved so that we can see what piece moved.. i'm intrigued now..

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We just move when we have time. Bilbo will probably move tomorrow sometime. Each time a move is made, the list and picture is updated. I made a few changes to the diagram, the arrow shows the last move, and also the co-ordinates are displayed. Better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CGM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RP33

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CGM

I see your point, you might be right, but I wanted to leave open the possibility of castling Queenside. At this point I do not want to open up the position more while my King is still in the center. For example, the game could go 16...Rb8 17.R(f)e1 b5 18.axb5 Bxb5 19.Rxa7 and it seems to me that Black has lost another pawn and weakened his position, and Black still has to worry about the safety of his King.

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When is the next move in this game going to be made?.. you should have the board with the previous screenshot before you moved so that we can see what piece moved.. i'm intrigued now..

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We just move when we have time. Bilbo will probably move tomorrow sometime. Each time a move is made, the list and picture is updated. I made a few changes to the diagram, the arrow shows the last move, and also the co-ordinates are displayed. Better?

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absolutely.. rep for helping the slow kid.