Wladimirs resume is excellent...

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

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Originally Posted by Master

Philosopher is obsessed with size and weight not about skill, technique, accuracy and natural power which is what punching power is about.

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Think he's more obsessed with being a shit throwing tool frankly. Foreman with an iffy beard. For fuck sake :p

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Or Foreman's lack of power.....when you can KO over 80% of the fighters you beat and when you're 45 and can KO the heavyweight champion of the world then IMO you've got some pop. Maybe if George was from Eastern Europe he'd get some props :rolleyes:

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Thank you, I thought it was just me and some other posters that had figured out he is so wrong it is laughable.

Just more 'A' typical typical nonsense! The American Mythology Mill, The Hollywood Fantasy Factory and the 1970s Hero Hype Machine!

Joe Frazier was blind on his left eye his entire professional career. Frazier wouldn't even be allowed to box nowadays. What does that tell u? He tricked the medical tests by covering his blind left eye and then switching his hand to cover his blind left eye. He would also bve the smallest HW operating today! What does that tell u? These things matter...

My thought's on fraziers abulity? Frazier was left hook happy, a poor boxer in terms of defense (though he was excellent at bobbing and weaving at the peak of his career) and was short and borderline fat. However, he was also immensely tough, had under-appreciated hand speed and quickness, terrific stamina, and no small amount of courage!

I get all that defending your favourites thing. Joe is dead and that is sad. But he would not have had much of an impact in today's era...

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

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Originally Posted by Master

Philosopher is obsessed with size and weight not about skill, technique, accuracy and natural power which is what punching power is about.

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Think he's more obsessed with being a shit throwing tool frankly. Foreman with an iffy beard. For fuck sake :p

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Or Foreman's lack of power.....when you can KO over 80% of the fighters you beat and when you're 45 and can KO the heavyweight champion of the world then IMO you've got some pop. Maybe if George was from Eastern Europe he'd get some props :rolleyes:

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Thank you, I thought it was just me and some other posters that had figured out he is so wrong it is laughable.

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Please put forth your argument about foreman being 'the greatest puncher of all time'!

I will be waiting...

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

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Originally Posted by Master

Philosopher is obsessed with size and weight not about skill, technique, accuracy and natural power which is what punching power is about.

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Think he's more obsessed with being a shit throwing tool frankly. Foreman with an iffy beard. For fuck sake :p

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Or Foreman's lack of power.....when you can KO over 80% of the fighters you beat and when you're 45 and can KO the heavyweight champion of the world then IMO you've got some pop. Maybe if George was from Eastern Europe he'd get some props :rolleyes:

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Thank you, I thought it was just me and some other posters that had figured out he is so wrong it is laughable.

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Please put forth your argument about foreman being 'the greatest puncher of all time'!

I will be waiting...

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Kabong has done it already.

Listen, I'm the biggest fan of the Klitschko brothers there is but Foreman has a better KO%.

I'm pretty sure Vitali has the best ko% next to Marciano but any difference between the brothers and Foreman is negligible at best.

Langford probably blows everyone away with more ko's then Foreman and Tyson combined and when you consider his size in comparison to many of his victims its not close.

Maybe Zarate has a better % but he also fought a much smaller amount of people.

I would divide Foreman's career in two. After all, they were spaced 10 years apart, and 1987 George was a totally different fighter than 1977 George. Throughout his first career, George had a KO ratio of 89.4%, higher than both Marciano and Vitali.

Carlos Zarate's ratio was 90% (63 KO's in 70 fights), and as you can see he had a large number of fights. I was curious about our own Wilfredo Gomez and looked him up. He finished with a very high KO ratio of 87.5% as well.

In considering Foreman's power versus Vitali's or Marciano's, I think you should take into account the number of early (such as 1st round) knockouts as well. Both Foreman and Tyson had a slew of those in the peak of their careers. I didn't check to see how these stack up against Vitali or Marciano.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

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Originally Posted by Master

Philosopher is obsessed with size and weight not about skill, technique, accuracy and natural power which is what punching power is about.

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Think he's more obsessed with being a shit throwing tool frankly. Foreman with an iffy beard. For fuck sake :p

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Maybe if George was from Eastern Europe he'd get some props :rolleyes:

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This is the impression I get from him too. Not many props are given to U.S. fighters for whatever reason. For example, I'd bet if Ali was a U.K fighter he'd use the same stats to reason why he was amazing and if Klitschko was an American, he'd use the same stats to argue how over rated he was. Strange man.

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

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Originally Posted by Master

Philosopher is obsessed with size and weight not about skill, technique, accuracy and natural power which is what punching power is about.

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Think he's more obsessed with being a shit throwing tool frankly. Foreman with an iffy beard. For fuck sake :p

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Maybe if George was from Eastern Europe he'd get some props :rolleyes:

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This is the impression I get from him too. Not many props are given to U.S. fighters for whatever reason. For example, I'd bet if Ali was a U.K fighter he'd use the same stats to reason why he was amazing and if Klitschko was an American, he'd use the same stats to argue how over rated he was. Strange man.

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You can't form an opinion on a fighter strictly based on Google. You gotta watch his fights and know something about the era and about the opponents he faced.

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Im a strange man?

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U spend hours wiping your body down with womens blusher! LOL.

Don't cry just because we differ on opinion. Do u really want to turn the thread into a personal thing?

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Kabong has done it already

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Can't u think for yourself? Your argument please?

Look, George get's overrated, sorry but he does.

George fought in the Golden Era alongside Muhammad Ali and was involved in one of the biggest fights ever, the Rumble In The Jungle, so he was a very high profile boxer. He then became the oldest heavyweight champion ever at 45, a great news story which made him famous again all around the world. George is known to be one of the most charismatic and media-friendly boxers ever, there are not many who can match his level of fame and recognition.

I think this has clouded the facts of his actual boxing career.

217lb Foreman beat Frazier twice (the second fight joe was overweight and totally shot!) You can't argue with the first win i suppose, Frazier was a great fghter, But they are wins of there time!! Does beating a chinny, 205lb fighter who medically would be unft to fight today give ppl the right to suggest foreman is the hardest hitter ever! How does he hit harder than Tyson, Tua, Lewis, The K2, Bowe etc? I don't see what was so awe inspiringly great about his career really at all. Foreman was great because he fought Ali! That's it isn't it?

He stopped Norton in two, but I'm not sure how impressive a feat that was. I think Norton is too highly rated because he was a tough match stylistically for Ali. Norton had been KO'd by a journeyman before he fought Big George, and both Earnie Shavers and Gerry Cooney put him away in the 1st round (this is maybe a bit unfair as Norton was well past-prime by then, but two 1st round KO defeats are there on his record). Norton also never won a world title an was annihilted by 188 lbs Garcia! Norton Freezes against punchers, admitted to being intimidated easily by them. Norton was put down over a dozen times in his career...

George was very very nearly KO'd by Ron Lyle (the Oliver McCall or Hasim Rahman of the Golden Era maybe??), and lost to Jimmy Young (record 20-5-2 at the time) - not a shock KO due to complacency like Lewis or wlad suffered, but simply a defeat by a better boxer on the night.

And that was that for Big George in the Golden Era. World champion for one year. Two great wins against the same opponent, one or two good wins, KO'd by Ali, took to the absolute brink by Lyle, beaten and floored by featherfisted Young. Young lost to Randy Neumann who was a two time loser to Chuck Wepner ffs! And was beaten easy by green Cooney! Cooney has a case for hitting harder than foreman considering he made easier work of lyle, norton and young.

The comeback was thoroughly underwhelming. Years of mediocrity alleviated by a one-punch KO of a former light-heavyweight champion after having been completely outboxed. Best wins were that win over Moorer, Moorer's fellow former lhw Qawi, and guys the standard of Cooper. Foreman got a gift v Axel Schulz in his first defence and was stripped for refusing to rematch him Yet we are to believe he was loking for a tyson fight!! Please...He couldn't beat a young and much more vulnerable shannon briggs convincingly!

For me, there is just no way that this is the career of a top 10 heavyweight, and certainly not the career of the hardest puncher ever!! I'm not being obnoxious, I don't even think he comes close. I do believe he is maybe the most overrated fighter ever because of his fame.

I am open to hearing the other side of the argument though, if anyone feels I am being unfair in my assessment of Big George's accomplishments in the ring??

I guess we are going to hear that Lyle was great because he lost to Ali and Foreman?Jerry Judge and Jose Roman lost to Foreman, so that must make them great too i suppose!

"Foreman is great because he fought Ali! That's it isn't it?"

:vd: ....I guess there's no arguing with you. It's not like George Foreman had a 76 (68 KO)-5 record with an 83.9 KO percentage over a span of 4 decades and was the oldest heavyweight champion of the world. It's not as if George Foreman had only started boxing a year before winning Olympic Gold in Mexico City.

You compare Ron Lyle to Oliver McCall & Hasim Rahman?!?! That's ridiculous. If there were as many belts back in the 1970's as there are today then Ron Lyle would have held on to more than a few of them he was a tough as nails fighter who got into boxing late and had already had a brush with death before he got into the sport.

George Foreman is great because he was a dominant force in the heavyweight division as long as he fought. He only ever suffered 1 stoppage loss and that was to Ali one of the greatest boxers of all time. Foreman won by KO/TKO vs guys like Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Cooney, Moorer, and so on...guys who were very good fighters and in some cases about 15-20 years younger than George. To say he's famous or thought of as great ONLY because he fought Ali is idiotic, I don't beleive that you honestly think that but if you do you need to seek help.

I wish u would all grow the fuck up and stop thinking every single criticism is an attempt to "hate" on a fighter. I like Big George, but the fact that I do is one of the reasons I believe I may have overrated him in the past, and so I was putting forward an argument in anticipation of a mature and reasonable response from those on the other side. It's a debating forum....I don't need to 'seek help' just because i can blow away the hyperbole! LOL

To respond:

- Read my post again. Do i give George credit for the frazier win? Yes. However frazier would have no impact against the top tier over the past 15 years or so IMO. You don't have to agree...

- Jimmy Young beat him, fair and square. All the excuses in the world don't change that. He also put him down so any notions of foremans chin being rock solid are defunct.

- Ron Lyle was not a great heavyweight, plain and simple. All the excuses in the world won't change that either. Respect to foreman for coming back after that beating from lyle and stopping him though!

- Going 24-0 in his comeback was not overly impressive when you consider the dire standard of opposition he was facing. Foreman's 90s career was carefully scripted. That is to be accepted though considering his age. Morrison easily beat him.

- Going 12 rounds against Holyfield is not a staggering achievement. It's a good achievement, but not spectacular. Respect for the holy fight but he was comprehensively outboxed in it!

-Kayoing norton is nothing special as he was stopped by188lb garcia a 5-1 underdog. Garcia put the much heavier Norton on the deck in the 1st round and staggered him in the 5th and 7th rounds. In the 8th, Garcia floored Norton again with 15 seconds left. He got up again, and Garcia put him down again just as the bell rang. Norton stumbled to his corner and collapsed. That is a brutalisation. Norton never won a title.

- He one-punched former lhw champion Michael Moorer. Again, a good achievement but nothing incredible. George's punching power is one thing that i dont doubt but i certainly dont think he is the GREATEST PUNCHER EVER! Do yourself a favour, go watch the Axel Schulz fight!

Terry Anderson, Adilson Rodriguez, Bert Cooper, Tony Fulialangi, Steve Zouski and Ken Lakusta third tier at best! I can't believe u are highlighting the cooney fight! Drug abused and boozed out Cooney a legitimate threat is a joke of the highest order.

Foreman KO Frazier, Foreman KO Moorer, that should not equate to foreman being the hardest hitter ever and nor should it equate to him running over most of the top HW's ever too! Consider too that he had size advantages over them both aswell and that frazier was decked twice by bonavena ( In fact he and was lucky to escape with a SD over him!) And we all know about moorers chin! Frazier was hurt by featherfist bugner too...

Foreman had a good chin all in all though, nice power, great fighter in the 70's but ultimately beatable if u could negate his power! He was outboxed by Ali and then Young in his prime, and had a life n death war with average lyle (who was lucky to escape with a win over bugner!) no excuses.

P.s I may have been a bit facetious with the 'Because he fought ali' point but still....Anyway peace out folks.

Ok he's not a hev but I just want to try and put things into perspective instead of "squabbling over the scraps of Longshanks table";D

The little man from Tylorstown Wales. Over 100 ko’s in about 140 fights. Don’t go check that stat at boxrec. They have terrible statistics for a few eras. Anyway I digress, a lot of these guys with massive ko% have only fought say 40 plus fights so imo the actual math can be deceiving and that’s only one reason for ko percentages to be looked at and scrutinized instead of taking the number and then making all kinds of generalizations from it. You can’t have an absolute when you start off with a shaky premise.
I mean Valero had a 100% ko ratio.

I can’t ever recall any fighter that made so many others quit. Whats even more impressive by the little Welshman is that he only lost four times and two of the 3 stoppages he suffered were in his last two fights when he was already long done. Now if people included his tent fight days knocking out guys at times that were 3 or 4 times his size he would have to get the knod. He’s definitely in my #1 spot as the biggest puncher that ever lived.


Carry on.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

I wish u would all grow the fuck up

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Listen here, you can't go around and attempt to say "I'm not hating on a fighter just by offering criticism" when you throw shit like that out first.

I take great offense to your posting. Not because you criticize 'Big' George Foreman an all-time great heavyweight but the reason you do so is to attempt to boost Wladimir Klitschko a fighter whom I have great respect for and a fighter who has great respect for those who came before him, so much so that Wladimir himself is unwilling to discuss his place among the greats until his career is over. You don't boost Wladimir's achievements in the sport by trying to minimize what other GREAT fighters have done. I don't just bandy the term great around with no thought. So my advice to you is show some respect.

Your post is so contradictory it is untrue Philosopher.

Not many fighters have stopped the blind and shot Frazier especially twice so George must have a bit of power.

You go on a rant about Norton who was KO'd 2 other huge punchers in Ernie Shavers and Gerry Cooney. Then go on to say Norton freezes against punchers, so Foreman could hit a little bit.

I was not on about George being a great champion or boxer so you ramblings were irrelevant from then on or who he lost to or even his comeback, I was on about his punch power in his prime. Foreman’s power is raw it did not rely on speed like Tyson, timing like Rudduck, weights like Bruno, accumulation like Wlad it was natural.

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Originally Posted by Master

Your post is so contradictory it is untrue Philosopher.

Not many fighters have stopped the blind and shot Frazier especially twice so George must have a bit of power.

You go on a rant about Norton who was KO'd 2 other huge punchers in Ernie Shavers and Gerry Cooney. Then go on to say Norton freezes against punchers, so Foreman could hit a little bit.

I was not on about George being a great champion or boxer so you ramblings were irrelevant from then on or who he lost to or even his comeback, I was on about his punch power in his prime. Foreman’s power is raw it did not rely on speed like Tyson, timing like Rudduck, weights like Bruno, accumulation like Wlad it was natural.

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Now that you say that... I'm reminded of one of the more improbable and amazing knockouts I've seen. It was Foreman-Moorer, during his comeback..... when he KO'ed Moorer with that right hand. When I first saw it, I was like... WTF was that? I couldn't see how Moorer would be so devastated by a punch that Foreman didn't "wind up" for. It looked like Foreman had just dropped that big right arm on Moorer without much of an effort. That in itself, speaks volumes about Foreman's natural power.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Now that you say that... I'm reminded of one of the more improbable and amazing knockouts I've seen. It was Foreman-Moorer, during his comeback..... when he KO'ed Moorer with that right hand. When I first saw it, I was like... WTF was that? I couldn't see how Moorer would be so devastated by a punch that Foreman didn't "wind up" for. It looked like Foreman had just dropped that big right arm on Moorer without much of an effort. That in itself, speaks volumes about Foreman's natural power.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZtZlTIglDU

Foreman on Tyson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmG_gR576EA

Foreman is amazing. To have such a long career and come back and compete and still be such a genuine nice guy.

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Originally Posted by Master

Your post is so contradictory it is untrue Philosopher.

Not many fighters have stopped the blind and shot Frazier especially twice so George must have a bit of power.

You go on a rant about Norton who was KO'd 2 other huge punchers in Ernie Shavers and Gerry Cooney. Then go on to say Norton freezes against punchers, so Foreman could hit a little bit.

I was not on about George being a great champion or boxer so you ramblings were irrelevant from then on or who he lost to or even his comeback, I was on about his punch power in his prime. Foreman’s power is raw it did not rely on speed like Tyson, timing like Rudduck, weights like Bruno, accumulation like Wlad it was natural.

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I can see that you are a tough negotiator LOL.

Norton was brutally beat up by a non punching LHW and yes he froze against punchers! Do u have evidence to the contrary? Secondly i never said foreman could not hit! Please don't twist my words.

Thirdly i am still waiting for you to stop piggy backing other posters and put forth YOUR argument rather than 'Likeing' everyone who refute's mine! This whole thread is about you being offended LOL.

I for one am completely satisfied with my posts in this thread. Mister u must not confuse bluntness with rudeness. Text is a poor conveyor of tone and something laid out in a straightforward manner is not necessarily being rude...I am here to debate, i am not here to blow smoke up the rear ends of fighters you like, if u want to criticise fighters i tend to follow then start a thread and i will be happy to partake. I thankyou.

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Listen here, you can't go around and attempt to say "I'm not hating on a fighter just by offering criticism" when you throw shit like that out first.

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Yes i can.

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I take great offense to your posting. Not because you criticize 'Big' George Foreman an all-time great heavyweight but the reason you do so is to attempt to boost Wladimir Klitschko a fighter whom I have great respect for and a fighter who has great respect for those who came before him, so much so that Wladimir himself is unwilling to discuss his place among the greats until his career is over. You don't boost Wladimir's achievements in the sport by trying to minimize what other GREAT fighters have done. I don't just bandy the term great around with no thought. So my advice to you is show some respect

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Well we can't be everyone's ideal...I appreciate you not being offended by this. LOL.

I suggest u lighten up....Have some fun!

Philospher, why should I repeat what other posters have said just to please you. Listen all of us can't be wrong, statistics and evidence has been provided that Foreman was one of the hardest punchers ever and he hit harder than either Klit.

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Originally Posted by Master

Philospher, why should I repeat what other posters have said just to please you. Listen all of us can't be wrong, statistics and evidence has been provided that Foreman was one of the hardest punchers ever and he hit harder than either Klit.

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....don't attempt to reason with him, he obviously doesn't care and is going to see things the way he wants to whatever you say.


Why does every other Klitschko fan have to be delusional and I am left alone in offering a rational point of view without insulting past greats???

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Master

Philospher, why should I repeat what other posters have said just to please you. Listen all of us can't be wrong, statistics and evidence has been provided that Foreman was one of the hardest punchers ever and he hit harder than either Klit.

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....don't attempt to reason with him, he obviously doesn't care and is going to see things the way he wants to whatever you say.


Why does every other Klitschko fan have to be delusional and I am left alone in offering a rational point of view without insulting past greats???

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Never thought I would type this but for once you are being the rational Klit fan compared to Philosopher, amazing. :)

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Originally Posted by Master

Philospher, why should I repeat what other posters have said just to please you. Listen all of us can't be wrong, statistics and evidence has been provided that Foreman was one of the hardest punchers ever and he hit harder than either Klit.

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Well give then to me then. Why are u dodging the issue? U clearly stated 'THE' hardest puncher ever and not 'ONE' of the hardest ever too in your original retorts! Don't move the goal posts now! I would like YOUR opinion first and then the statistics links. Thanks.

If u think he hit harder than either KLIT then i pity u. As i said...So far 13 people survived fights with Foreman. But only 3 survived against Wlad.

Additionally…

Prime George Foreman (median weight 217 lbs)
would be Wladimir Klitschko's
bottom-10 LIGHTEST opponent
and Vitali Klitschko's bottom-3 LIGHTEST opponent

The easiest way to convince ppl like u of the superiority of Klitschko (compared to Foreman) is to mention that George Foreman has scored only 3 KOs in world championship fights whereas Wladimir Klitschko has scored approximately 5 times as many.

U base your theory on Frazier, Moorer and Norton who between them have been about 35 times throughout there careers! Frazier is tiny, Norton was brutalised by a LHW and Moorer was dropped X6by Holyfield and X2 by CW Bert Cooper! The evidence does not support your claim's. Of course George was a huge puncher but not by the SHW standards' of the 90's and 00's.

Now what are these statistics u talk of? Insulting me or 'Likeing' other ppl's posts is not an argument or a reply! U are taking my bluntness and insistance totally wrong too...I'm just here to debate! Stop taking this so personal and labelling ppl irrational.

U are the irrational one with his head in the cloud's if anyone is!

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

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Originally Posted by Master

Philospher, why should I repeat what other posters have said just to please you. Listen all of us can't be wrong, statistics and evidence has been provided that Foreman was one of the hardest punchers ever and he hit harder than either Klit.

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Well give then to me then. Why are u dodging the issue? U clearly stated 'THE' hardest puncher ever and not 'ONE' of the hardest ever too in your original retorts! Don't move the goal posts now! I would like YOUR opinion first and then the statistics links. Thanks.

If u think he hit harder than either KLIT then i pity u. As i said...So far 13 people survived fights with Foreman. But only 3 survived against Wlad.

Additionally…

Prime George Foreman (median weight 217 lbs)
would be Wladimir Klitschko's
bottom-10 LIGHTEST opponent
and Vitali Klitschko's bottom-3 LIGHTEST opponent

The easiest way to convince ppl like u of the superiority of Klitschko (compared to Foreman) is to mention that George Foreman has scored only 3 KOs in world championship fights whereas Wladimir Klitschko has scored approximately 5 times as many.

U base your theory on Frazier, Moorer and Norton who between them have been about 35 times throughout there careers! Frazier is tiny, Norton was brutalised by a LHW and Moorer was dropped X6by Holyfield and X2 by CW Bert Cooper! The evidence does not support your claim's. Of course George was a huge puncher but not by the SHW standards' of the 90's and 00's.

Now what are these statistics u talk of? Insulting me or 'Likeing' other ppl's posts is not an argument or a reply! U are taking my bluntness and insistance totally wrong too...I'm just here to debate! Stop taking this so personal and labelling ppl irrational.

U are the irrational one with his head in the cloud's if anyone is!

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Philosopher by your view Nicolay Valuev should be the hardest puncher ever seeing how he's so big and all....oooh or maybe Butterbean hits harder than Wlad & Vitali seeing how he's heavier as well. Guys like Marciano & Shavers were tiny but they could bang....guess you've got no use for them though.


You can argue all you like but don't be intellectually dishonest the way you are

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Philosopher by your view Nicolay Valuev should be the hardest puncher ever seeing how he's so big and all....

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Are u his legal guardian or something?

Valuev was a big useless lump. A sideshow. I never stated size was the be all & end all in this argument. The klitschkos are exceptional in all aspect's and both hit harder than foreman.

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oooh or maybe Butterbean hits harder than Wlad & Vitali seeing how he's heavier as well.

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In a p4p sense foreman is an ATG puncher but saying he hit's harder than the ELITE SHW'S of the past 2 decades is just incorrect. And bringing a Telletubbie into the debate just makes u look silly. Butterbean.....LOL. Oh and Valuev couldn't really punch. So again your suggestion that i am basing it all on size has just been refuted. Just because i say K2 are harder puncher's than Foreman doesn't mean i apply that logic to all 240lb + fighters! K2 are exceptional in all aspect's and they hit harder than george, clearly! (Especially WK!).

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Guys like Marciano & Shavers were tiny but they could bang....guess you've got no use for them though.

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Rocky is one of my favourite fighters ever. Shavers could indeed bang but he was basically a journeyman.

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You can argue all you like but don't be intellectually dishonest the way you are

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I am being honest. Im off for my lunch now. Good day to u sir.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

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Philosopher by your view Nicolay Valuev should be the hardest puncher ever seeing how he's so big and all....

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Are u his legal guardian or something?

Valuev was a big useless lump. A sideshow. I never stated size was the be all & end all in this argument. The klitschkos are exceptional in all aspect's and both hit harder than foreman.

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oooh or maybe Butterbean hits harder than Wlad & Vitali seeing how he's heavier as well.

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In a p4p sense foreman is an ATG puncher but saying he hit's harder than the ELITE SHW'S of the past 2 decades is just incorrect. And bringing a Telletubbie into the debate just makes u look silly. Butterbean.....LOL. Oh and Valuev couldn't really punch. So again your suggestion that i am basing it all on size has just been refuted. Just because i say K2 are harder puncher's than Foreman doesn't mean i apply that logic to all 240lb + fighters! K2 are exceptional in all aspect's and they hit harder than george, clearly! (Especially WK!).

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Guys like Marciano & Shavers were tiny but they could bang....guess you've got no use for them though.

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Rocky is one of my favourite fighters ever. Shavers could indeed bang but he was basically a journeyman.

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You can argue all you like but don't be intellectually dishonest the way you are

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I am being honest. Im off for my lunch now. Good day to u sir.

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My points (not that it matters to much to attempt and explain this to you) are that you bring weight into the equation like it's the end all be all of where punching power comes from....and I say it's not via my ridiculous example of Nicolay Valuev who is gigantic and punches like a baby kitten and Earnie Shavers who was tiny and could crack granite with his fists (that's a bit of hyperbole, I hope you understand what that is).

The allegations you make and the manner in which you try to get your points across are moronic. "George Foreman is an ATG puncher BUT" .....but what? Why the fuck even bring it up? Why even attempt to compare them if you consider Heavyweight and Superheavyweight different??? What constitutes a Superheavyweight in your eyes? How do you know SPECIFICALLY that Wlad or Vitali hit harder than Foreman or vice versa? Do you have any facts to back up your claims? Or are you just basing it on what it looks like?

Have a nice lunch

Are u incapable of grasping an argument? It's simple, when talking about NOTED HW punchers like WK and big george then POUNDAGE must factor in as PART of the equation, otherwise NOTED punchers like julian jackson are comparable to foreman or duran is comparable to frazier! Is it sinking in yet? It's common sense when comparing the power of 2 noted HW punchers to mention that prime george was 217 and WK 245! So sorry but 200lb shavers is not comparable to i.e Lewis IMO! Great P4P puncher, Undoubtable power but not on lewis's level! Now of course there are bigger men than foreman who don't hit as hard, and PRIME foreman in a P4P sense (Im HW terms!) is probably a slightly harder puncher than WK but when asking how does GF measure up with the NOTED big hitters of recent years like Tua, Tyson, K2, Lewis etc then i say they hit harder overall! What is so wrong with suggesting i.e WK hit's harder?? He clearly does as evidenced by the stats etc i put forth and the fact that GF struggled with Morrison, Schultz, Moorer, Briggs, Savarese etc Foremans power had no impact in the 90's...which is suprising considering he focused on it massively in training! Morrison, Schultz, Moorer, Briggs, Savarese would all have ben stopped with ease by WK. I never said it was the be all & end all as u like to imply!

U also say i de-mean GF and WK by daring to compare them and then go onto compare WK to Butterbean LOL with your 'Well Valuev/Butterbean must hit harder as they are bigger' comment! U don't even know u did it! Exposed yourself right there! LOL. All the evidence and common sense points to wlad hitting harder, Common opponents, Fight stats, How many men have survived them etc Just accept K2 are better (it's not disrespectful, boxing debate has been going on for decades) foreman himself admits it! Lets ask a fighter! Briggs fought an old foreman and an old VK and says VK is the superior fighter! Thats good enough for me too...

Stop romanticising these 70's HW's, by all means appreciate them but dont put them on a pedestal they don't deserve! Jimmy young arguably beat all of them yet casual fans don't even know who he is, and in truth when u see men like Cooper and Bugner giving ali/frazier nightmares then imaging what K2 and the elite SHW'S of the past couple of decades would do! Yeah u can cite wlad's losses but he beat far better men than the 3 he lost to..

Foreman dropped SMALL joe frazier multiple times and stopped chinny norton, so what! He still didn't KO frazier! Sanders brutalised wlad, put rahman down twice and arguably put VK down too! Do we ever hear his name mentioned in those circles? No. Why? Because everything to do with this era is overrated apparently and all that went before are demio-gods and anyone who dares to challenge that is labelled irrational!

I think the real problem here is the fact that i have destroyed u both in this thread, and u don't like it so to save face u have decided to pursue a personal vendetta in order to discredit me. LOL. This place is like some little clique with only one train of thought...

Go watch green wlad school chris byrd then go watch PRIME foreman get his as beat by 34-19 Jimmy 'A poor mans chris byrd' Young! My argument is tight. Your argument is just butthurt diatribe! Tua, Tyson, Lewis, K2 etc hit harder IMO! Holy's power is even comparable too! Hell even cooney and sanders have an argument here! If u think any of those men don't hit harder than GF then drop the attitude and say so.

U also say 'do i have any concrete evidence' well i think my argument that i put forth is better than your's! Of course it is all subjective and i could equally flip that with 'Do u have any facts to say george DEFINITELY hit harder?'... And another thing "George Foreman is an ATG puncher BUT" ..... and?? What is wrong with debating a boxer in a boxing forum? It is simply my opinion u don't have to agree, i think i have made a good enough case, but no nothing is ever definitive unless we stick em all in a lab and test em like rats! U could apply your logic to any issue in boxing and never get CONCRETE evidence, thats what we are here for to debate and put forth arguments! Sense of persepective mate, get one! And get off the fence u fookin liberal democrat ...LOL.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

Are u incapable of grasping an argument? It's simple, when talking about NOTED HW punchers like WK and big george then POUNDAGE must factor in as PART of the equation, otherwise NOTED punchers like julian jackson are comparable to foreman or duran is comparable to frazier! Is it sinking in yet? It's common sense when comparing the power of 2 noted HW punchers to mention that prime george was 217 and WK 245! So sorry but 200lb shavers is not comparable to i.e Lewis IMO! Great P4P puncher, Undoubtable power but not on lewis's level! Now of course there are bigger men than foreman who don't hit as hard, and PRIME foreman in a P4P sense (Im HW terms!) is probably a slightly harder puncher than WK but when asking how does GF measure up with the NOTED big hitters of recent years like Tua, Tyson, K2, Lewis etc then i say they hit harder overall! What is so wrong with suggesting i.e WK hit's harder?? He clearly does as evidenced by the stats etc i put forth and the fact that GF struggled with Morrison, Schultz, Moorer, Briggs, Savarese etc Foremans power had no impact in the 90's...which is suprising considering he focused on it massively in training! Morrison, Schultz, Moorer, Briggs, Savarese would all have ben stopped with ease by WK. I never said it was the be all & end all as u like to imply!

U also say i de-mean GF and WK by daring to compare them and then go onto compare WK to Butterbean LOL with your 'Well Valuev/Butterbean must hit harder as they are bigger' comment! U don't even know u did it! Exposed yourself right there! LOL. All the evidence and common sense points to wlad hitting harder, Common opponents, Fight stats, How many men have survived them etc Just accept K2 are better (it's not disrespectful, boxing debate has been going on for decades) foreman himself admits it! Lets ask a fighter! Briggs fought an old foreman and an old VK and says VK is the superior fighter! Thats good enough for me too...

Stop romanticising these 70's HW's, by all means appreciate them but dont put them on a pedestal they don't deserve! Jimmy young arguably beat all of them yet casual fans don't even know who he is, and in truth when u see men like Cooper and Bugner giving ali/frazier nightmares then imaging what K2 and the elite SHW'S of the past couple of decades would do! Yeah u can cite wlad's losses but he beat far better men than the 3 he lost to..

Foreman dropped SMALL joe frazier multiple times and stopped chinny norton, so what! He still didn't KO frazier! Sanders brutalised wlad, put rahman down twice and arguably put VK down too! Do we ever hear his name mentioned in those circles? No. Why? Because everything to do with this era is overrated apparently and all that went before are demio-gods and anyone who dares to challenge that is labelled irrational!

I think the real problem here is the fact that i have destroyed u both in this thread, and u don't like it so to save face u have decided to pursue a personal vendetta in order to discredit me. LOL. This place is like some little clique with only one train of thought...

Go watch green wlad school chris byrd then go watch PRIME foreman get his as beat by 34-19 Jimmy 'A poor mans chris byrd' Young! My argument is tight. Your argument is just butthurt diatribe! Tua, Tyson, Lewis, K2 etc hit harder IMO! Holy's power is even comparable too! Hell even cooney and sanders have an argument here! If u think any of those men don't hit harder than GF then drop the attitude and say so.

U also say 'do i have any concrete evidence' well i think my argument that i put forth is better than your's! Of course it is all subjective and i could equally flip that with 'Do u have any facts to say george DEFINITELY hit harder?'... And another thing "George Foreman is an ATG puncher BUT" ..... and?? What is wrong with debating a boxer in a boxing forum? It is simply my opinion u don't have to agree, i think i have made a good enough case, but no nothing is ever definitive unless we stick em all in a lab and test em like rats! U could apply your logic to any issue in boxing and never get CONCRETE evidence, thats what we are here for to debate and put forth arguments! Sense of persepective mate, get one! And get off the fence u fookin liberal democrat ...LOL.

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my good sir, a higher KO percentage need not mean that fighter A punched harder than fighter B. You see, timing and accuracy of the punches also factor largely in the equation.

I brought up Valuev & Butterbean to prove how fucking ridiculous your argument is that just because Wlad is 240+ and Foreman in his prime was about 220 it doesn't mean Wlad hits harder because if it was 100% about weight like you base your dumbass argument on then Valuev & Butterbean WOULD be the hardest punchers seeing how they outweigh everyone.....but that's not the case is it?

And you think Tua hits harder than Foreman too? And Tyson hits harder than Foreman....dude both of those guys weighed LESS than Foreman when they were knocking everyone out.

I'm not the one using KO%!

Nor am i the one comparing Butterbean to WK!

I'm comparing GF to WK! El kabong u r pig ignorantly stupid aren't u? LOL. I have given u a numerous counters to your argument and i keep asking u to tell me were i have stated that size is the deciding factor? I state that when 2 Noted punchers like these two have 25lbs of prime weight between them that that IMO factors into the equation! U don't have to agree, u don't have to start whining on about a baby 201lb david tua who (LOL u if u think tua at 19 had reached the peak of his powers at 201!) Even then it plays into my argument byrd stating TUA hits hard! LOL.

Here is my argument again just so u understand as u seem incapable of grasping it: WK's World title stats: Name and KO'ratio in world title fights:

·George Foreman 42.8% (3 of 7)
·Mike Tyson 62.5% (10 of 16)
·Wladimir Klitschko 77.7% (14 0f 18)

Another way of comparing is common opponents: Schulz, Martin and Young:

Opponent Wladimir Klitschko's result George Foreman's result:

·Axel Schulz KO8 MD12
·Everett Martin KO8 UD10
·Mark Young KO2 (RTD2) TKO7

This again shows superiority on wlads part! More?

How about the fact that George Foreman has scored only 3 KOs in world championship fights 200×2, whereas Wladimir Klitschko has scored approximately 5 x as many!

More? So far 13 people survived fights with Foreman. But only 3 survived against Wlad! Shall we go on?

Let's also take a look at people who have sparred with them (Of course we must value the opinion of some forum trolls over someone who actually experienced them! 'But wait that guy must be lyeing.....') LOL:

I-sparred-with-Evander-Holyfield-George-Foreman-Lennox-Lewis-David-Tua-and-others-td4090601

Lets take the opinion of someone in the know:

"What makes him really special also is he has so much power in the late rounds. A lot of guys, great punchers like ·Mike Tyson, they were great in the early rounds but very seldom in the late rounds. Wladimir has knocked out guys like he did with ·Chris Byrd, and RayAustin, and ·Eliseo Castillo – he knocked those guys out early because he threw a punch early, an early power punch. And then he’s had the power to go out after being down three times with ·Samuel Peter and he had him out on his feet in the twelfth round of a very grueling fight with one single punch, a left hook. Then he knocked out Tony thompson. With Tony Thompson he ran across the ring and threw one straight right hand in the eleventh round and just walked away, and Thompson went down totally finished. Now he knocks out this guy in the 12th round with ten or twelve seconds left with one punch. To have a fighter that has that kind of devastating one punch clean knockout power is so much stress on the opponent because you’re never safe."

(Emmanuel Stewart, HOF trainer of Wladimir Klitschko) Also note Freddie roach said WK hit harder than Tyson!

More? Let's see who foreman says hit him the hardest:

Boxing - George Foreman reveals who hit him the hardest..

Oh look cooney! As i said cooney had an argument too!

Let's look at someone who fought LL and WK (Phil jackson) He says wlad hit harder:

Ex-Foe says Wladimir Klitschko Can Still Be Champ

More powerful than Lennox Lewis would you say?

Phil Jackson: "Yeah, most definitely. Yeah."

Shall we go on? U see im not basing it all on size, i said IMO being 25lbs of solid muscle larger factors in! when talking about NOTED punchers, of course foreman has incredible power and he is an ATG puncher but IMO WK hits harder! Stop crying and produce a counter to this argument! Now point me to where i said foreman doesn't hit as hard because WK is bigger? I said that when comparing those 2 then wlads size must factor in as part of the equation IMO!

Freddie Roach said Wlad's hands were faster than Tyson's, I don't recall him saying anything about punching power

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Freddie Roach said Wlad's hands were faster than Tyson's, I don't recall him saying anything about punching power

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Freddie Roach: "Punch for punch actually Mike is more explosive than Wladimir Klitschko. Klitschko is so big and he doesn’t have the speed of Mike, but he’s got that dense power though so Mike’s asset is the speed that comes with the power. Klitschko doesn’t have that speed so if you see a punch coming and you can prepare for it, it won’t knock you out. Punch for punch I think Klitschko probably hits a little bit harder but Mike’s much more explosive"

Emanuel Steward: “If this man actually would just operate with close to 80%—he’s only operating with about 60%—he would be the most devastating heavyweight in the history of boxing because I’ve worked with him. Never, ever, ever have I been involved with a fighter who has so much one punch punching power. Even guys that knock somebody out—they get them hurt, they knock them down, they get them groggy—Wladimir is the only fighter I’ve ever worked with that everything can be normal like a big party—everybody is having champagne, on the floors, in the tuxedos, with the music—and the lights go off completely at one time. I mean it’s not like a gradual dimmer switch. I never saw anyone who knocked out people in a gym when they block punches and he did that about three weeks ago with a sparring partner—two weeks ago, prior to the fight. With a sparring partner he threw a left hook, the sparring partner blocked the punch and with twenty ounce gloves he was still knocked out. He has unbelievable one punch punching power and that’s why maybe he doesn’t put combinations together because he punches so effectively and with so much power with one punch, but his handicap and problem is he feints too much. He wants everything to be perfect—perfect balance, perfect this, and the last round he was a little overly aggressive, got out of position a few times, but to go three minutes with a guy with his power is like a lifetime because even if he just grazes you with a punch, you’re going to be hurt.”

.....that because he weighs more than Tyson???

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

.....that because he weighs more than Tyson???

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Not any more he doesn't.

http://www.celebridoodle.com/.a/6a00...a8d2970c-500wi

Mike Tyson: “I don’t buy the idea that today’s fighters are not as good as the old fighters,” stated Tyson recently to Oliver Holt of the London Mirror. “If you had asked Joe Frazier if he could beat me when I was at my best, he would have said, ‘Hell yeah.’ That’s the way boxing goes. I think I could beat the next generation of fighters but the reality of history is that the fighters get better and better, bigger and bigger and stronger and stronger.”

“I think the heavweight scene is pretty good right now,” Tyson continued. “The Klitschkos are doing great"

P.s I thought freddie said nothing about power? ;)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rriR7jKZm9...hers+belts.jpg

;)

You do know I'm a Klitschko fan right???

The difference between us is that I (unlike you) choose to be reasonable and rational in defending either brother while you like to skew numbers and compare their power against that of a 45 year old George Foreman.

Anybody can put quotes around something "THE PHILOSOPHER is an asshole" - Freddie Roach....well damn what did you do to poor Freddie?

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You do know I'm a Klitschko fan right???

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U do know i don't care right?

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The difference between us is that I (unlike you) choose to be reasonable and rational in defending either brother while you like to skew numbers and compare their power against that of a 45 year old George Foreman.

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WK hit's harder IMO. I compare there power to foreman's entire career (i.e KO's in world title fight's!). Common opponent's is only one angle, plus i highlighted george was older! Foreman's Power didn't diminish, ask holy and moorer! Evidence that it diminished please?

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Anybody can put quotes around something "THE PHILOSOPHER is an asshole" - Freddie Roach....well damn what did you do to poor Freddie

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Source for that quote please?

You put up with my shit, I like that. My dog does the same ;)

I thankyou.

I prove that George Foreman hits harder by showing his KO%, you pick & choose Wladimir's numbers in attempt to bring Foreman down and I'm sorry it just doesn't work that way. GEORGE FOREMAN KO'D MORE FIGHTERS THAN WLADIMIR HAS that's a factual statement proven true by numbers. It's not some handpicked bullcrap about title fights or what have you where Wladimir has loads more as he's fought for several more belts and there are several more belts to fight for thereby hurting George Foreman's numbers.

Why should I post a source for my Freddie Roach quote, it's not like you posted one for yours now is it?