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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Floyd Mayweather is not greater than Leonard, Duran, Whitaker, Hearns, Roy Jones from the modern era.
I have to respectfully disagree with Hearns and Roy Jones. For me Roy is behind Floyd, Manny, Hop, Tito, Evander, Hagler and the others you named.
Hearns won titles at multiple weights and entertained.
Roy Jones dominated 3 weights (beating Hopkins and Toney) and won a title at heavy.
Never cleaned out one weight he was in and Toney was the only p4p ranked guy he beat. While I give Floyd credit for his comp, Roy is the epitome of a guy who missed most of his significant threats. He had a great career and was a phenom, but his level of competition was a joke. I place Oscar and Tito above him historically.
Shame on you for posting such a thing. I will not go into Oscar who had the bottle to take on all comers and Tito who had brutal power at 2 weights but Jones was the man and even you know that Benn, Eubank, Dariusz and others did not stand a chance.
Any pro fighter has a chance. I was sure G-Man would destroy Benn. I was certain that Tyson was going to chew Douglas up and spit him out. I had no doubt that Leonard would leave the ring on a stretcher after fighting Hagler ( thought he lost that one, but was still shocked to see him last the distance). Roy was a phenom and on his best night I think he is even money with anyone in history. Still have to prove it in the ring...
You could say the same with most fighters in history that they did not fight particular fighters.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Floyd Mayweather is not greater than Leonard, Duran, Whitaker, Hearns, Roy Jones from the modern era.
I have to respectfully disagree with Hearns and Roy Jones. For me Roy is behind Floyd, Manny, Hop, Tito, Evander, Hagler and the others you named.
Hearns won titles at multiple weights and entertained.
Roy Jones dominated 3 weights (beating Hopkins and Toney) and won a title at heavy.
Never cleaned out one weight he was in and Toney was the only p4p ranked guy he beat. While I give Floyd credit for his comp, Roy is the epitome of a guy who missed most of his significant threats. He had a great career and was a phenom, but his level of competition was a joke. I place Oscar and Tito above him historically.
Shame on you for posting such a thing. I will not go into Oscar who had the bottle to take on all comers and Tito who had brutal power at 2 weights but Jones was the man and even you know that Benn, Eubank, Dariusz and others did not stand a chance.
Any pro fighter has a chance. I was sure G-Man would destroy Benn. I was certain that Tyson was going to chew Douglas up and spit him out. I had no doubt that Leonard would leave the ring on a stretcher after fighting Hagler ( thought he lost that one, but was still shocked to see him last the distance). Roy was a phenom and on his best night I think he is even money with anyone in history. Still have to prove it in the ring...
You could say the same with most fighters in history that they did not fight particular fighters.
Not NEARLY as many as Roy. Not even close. U can say Oscar avoided Winky n Vernon, maybe Tszyu. He fought Quartey, Whitaker, Tito, Mosley, Hop, Vargas and Chavez. Whoever says Floyd sucked anyone is an idiot. U can say Leonard never fought Pryor. Leonard fought Duran, Benitez, Hearns and Hagler.
Roy didn't fight Benn, Eubank, Collins, Liles, Darius, G-Man, Julian Jackson, Graciano and/or Nunn. The only prime P4P great fighter Roy beat was Toney.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Oscar lost big fights.
Floyd ducked Manny.
Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.
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They said a tall dangerous fighter like corrales would beat floyd at the time...but guess what happened?
Duran over floyd?..come on!?
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
They said a tall dangerous fighter like corrales would beat floyd at the time...but guess what happened?
Duran over floyd?..come on!?
At lightweight yes!
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Oscar lost big fights.
Floyd ducked Manny.
Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.
Roy was supposedly, according to Roy, very good friends with G-Man. After Benn ended his career, how could he find a reason to NOT fight him? Steve Collins called Roy out repeatedly after beating Eubank and Benn. Doubt Collins was ducking Roy. Darius called Roy out constantly. Roy was the name at that weight and a win over him makes any of those guys a superstar.
NO ONE was ducking Roy. It's why they called him Reluctant Roy and created the Roycott.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Oscar lost big fights.
Floyd ducked Manny.
Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.
Roy was supposedly, according to Roy, very good friends with G-Man. After Benn ended his career, how could he find a reason to NOT fight him? Steve Collins called Roy out repeatedly after beating Eubank and Benn. Doubt Collins was ducking Roy. Darius called Roy out constantly. Roy was the name at that weight and a win over him makes any of those guys a superstar.
NO ONE was ducking Roy. It's why they called him Reluctant Roy and created the Roycott.
Collins ducked calzaghe..
All this ducking talk seems to suit every individual boxing fans needs.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Oscar lost big fights.
Floyd ducked Manny.
Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.
Roy was supposedly, according to Roy, very good friends with G-Man. After Benn ended his career, how could he find a reason to NOT fight him? Steve Collins called Roy out repeatedly after beating Eubank and Benn. Doubt Collins was ducking Roy. Darius called Roy out constantly. Roy was the name at that weight and a win over him makes any of those guys a superstar.
NO ONE was ducking Roy. It's why they called him Reluctant Roy and created the Roycott.
Collins ducked calzaghe..
All this ducking talk seems to suit every individual boxing fans needs.
Dariuz should have come to Roy if he wanted the fight instead of losing to some one Roy had beat. Benn was finished after the G Man fight and cashed in on some easy defences before losing the title to someone who Roy had beat.
Collins is not even worth discussing.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
You are definitely being biased against Manny and not putting into context when the wins occurred. Manny's top wins:
JMM: Not the blown up lightweight that Floyd beat at 147, Manny fought the prime counter puncher at a weight that suited both. He fought him multiple times in JMM prime, while he was rated P4P. JMM is a HOFer easy.
Barrera: Coming off of a dominating win of Hamed and close win over Morales, he was P4P top 5 and a HUGE favorite to win. Pac destroyed him during his peak and at his best weight. HOFer.
Morales: P4P ranked when they fought the first time, Manny lost a close decision but came back to destroy him twice. Another HOF fighter Pac fought during his prime.
Cotto: One loss to Margo, a much bigger man and still viewed as in his prime and dangerous. This is a very underrated win, especially considering how Pac stopped him. HOFer.
Bradley: Ranked P4P #3 at the time and undefeated. Manny beat him twice (don't care what the judges said) during Bradley's prime.
Hatton: lesser version than the one Floyd beat, but one look at that fight n u can see it wouldn't have mattered. Manny destroys Hatton any time they fight like that.
JMM fought Floyd at WW, weighing 142, and got completely dominated. JMM fought Manny twice at WW, weighing 142 and 143, in which he was robbed in the first fight and knocked Manny spark out in the second.
People talk about how JMM was so small when he fought Floyd and then magically grew into a true WW when he fought Pac. No, he weighed the same when he fought Pac twice as he did when he fought Floyd. Explain to me the difference.
As far as Barrera goes, yup great win that I have absolutely no problem with. Cotto was always dangerous but what I said still stands: his stock had dropped considerably after getting destroyed by Margarito and then looking very mediocre vs Clottey. That's not my opinion, that's just a fact. Morales was a great win (but Morales also outboxed Manny in the first fight).
JMM didn't magically grow into ww, he matured and put muscle on to grow into the weight. Watch his fight vs Floyd n then last fight vs Manny. Night n day difference in size and density. Add to the fact that Floyd didn't meet the contractual weight by a couple of pounds, n it was a couple of guys from two different weight classes fighting. I always have said the Manny is a smaller man than Floyd. Much smaller. Floyd is a big 140 pounder and Manny is a 135 pounder. He started as a flyweight, and even though he was young he is only like 5'5" or 5'6".
This is a sensible view. Both are great fighters. Floyd's style for me is dull whereas Manny is exciting. I would stay up all night to watch Manny but not Floyd. Having said that, Floyd is bigger, much bigger, in boxing at the highest level that is a crucial factor. I know there are many examples that may be quoted to disprove this but the fact remains that "GOOD BIG'UN WILL BEAT A GOOD LITTL'UN! most times. Manny therefore has a problem But I would love him to prove me wrong.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Oscar lost big fights.
Floyd ducked Manny.
Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.
Roy was supposedly, according to Roy, very good friends with G-Man. After Benn ended his career, how could he find a reason to NOT fight him? Steve Collins called Roy out repeatedly after beating Eubank and Benn. Doubt Collins was ducking Roy. Darius called Roy out constantly. Roy was the name at that weight and a win over him makes any of those guys a superstar.
NO ONE was ducking Roy. It's why they called him Reluctant Roy and created the Roycott.
Collins ducked calzaghe..
All this ducking talk seems to suit every individual boxing fans needs.
Dariuz should have come to Roy if he wanted the fight instead of losing to some one Roy had beat. Benn was finished after the G Man fight and cashed in on some easy defences before losing the title to someone who Roy had beat.
Collins is not even worth discussing.
Huh. So you're saying that Collins was so bad that he shouldn't even be mentioned as a possible opponent for Roy, but Vinny Paz, Tony Thornton and Antoine Byrd were?!? Roy fought Vinny Paz. Former lightweight title holder. The guy who was humiliated by Hector Camacho. You're telling me Steve Collins wasn't worthy but Paz was?!? You can't even say that with a straight face. When guys try to say Floyd ducked everyone, I disagree and don't take it seriously. When they say Roy ducked people, I agree wholeheartedly. Roy missed too many big fights vs real competition during his prime. Once he lost his abilities he then tried to fight the best to stay relevant but it was too late.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Oscar lost big fights.
Floyd ducked Manny.
Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.
Roy was supposedly, according to Roy, very good friends with G-Man. After Benn ended his career, how could he find a reason to NOT fight him? Steve Collins called Roy out repeatedly after beating Eubank and Benn. Doubt Collins was ducking Roy. Darius called Roy out constantly. Roy was the name at that weight and a win over him makes any of those guys a superstar.
NO ONE was ducking Roy. It's why they called him Reluctant Roy and created the Roycott.
Collins ducked calzaghe..
All this ducking talk seems to suit every individual boxing fans needs.
Dariuz should have come to Roy if he wanted the fight instead of losing to some one Roy had beat. Benn was finished after the G Man fight and cashed in on some easy defences before losing the title to someone who Roy had beat.
Collins is not even worth discussing.
Huh. So you're saying that Collins was so bad that he shouldn't even be mentioned as a possible opponent for Roy, but Vinny Paz, Tony Thornton and Antoine Byrd were?!? Roy fought Vinny Paz. Former lightweight title holder. The guy who was humiliated by Hector Camacho. You're telling me Steve Collins wasn't worthy but Paz was?!? You can't even say that with a straight face. When guys try to say Floyd ducked everyone, I disagree and don't take it seriously. When they say Roy ducked people, I agree wholeheartedly. Roy missed too many big fights vs real competition during his prime. Once he lost his abilities he then tried to fight the best to stay relevant but it was too late.
Collins had just beaten a shopworn Eubanks and was cashing in the title after failing to beat anyone decent in the USA.
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I love roy but he should have fought the best of the uk..clinton woods fight was just a sparring session and clinton was in love with roy in that fight!!
Roy did beat tarver the first time though and people do forget that..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
I love roy but he should have fought the best of the uk..clinton woods fight was just a sparring session and clinton was in love with roy in that fight!!
Roy did beat tarver the first time though and people do forget that..
I actually think the Tarver win was Roys most impressive. I felt Hop was green and Ruiz was limited. The Griffin win was visually impressive and a great win, but Roy showed a ton of guts in taking Tarver on knowing he had a tough style and then showed serious toughness in winning what was an extremely taxing fight. All of that being said, I can't believe he didn't fight Benn, Eubank, Collins, Darius, Graciano, Liles, G-Man, Julian Jackson and/or Michael Nunn. Craziest thing is that people still try and say Roy never ducked anyone.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
That's two different discussions you are having. Accomplishments and historical standing is separate from head to head match ups and who people "think" was the better overall fighter. Those discussions of "who is better r completely subjective, and they rarely account for style match ups...etc. I will explain how I think those guys you named break out from Floyd in each way though.
1) Accomplishments: This is where it isn't even debatable for me. Floyd never ducked anyone, I know, bathe hasn't beaten the ATGs, HOFers...etc., that those top 5 did. Maybe Pep is debatable, but I don't have Willie in my top 5, I have Ali instead. Floyd has NEVER "slain the dragon". Think Duran jumping to WW n beating the prime Leonard. Think Leonard beating Duran, Hearns n then the complete monster in Hagler. Floyd never beat the sheer number of ATG/HOFers that SRR, and rarely in such spectacular fashion. As impressive as retiring undefeated is (Ricardo Lopez, Joe C n Marciano), Henry Armstrong simultaneously holding 3 of 8 (should've been 4 of 8 but he was robbed vs Garcia) world titles available, defending the WW title over 20 times in a year with most of those being stoppages and beating a good number of ATG/HOF fighters along the way is more impressive. While Floyd is popular and transcends boxing, he is nowhere near the icon Ali was and has NEVER produced historical fights or comebacks like Ali and Leonard did. So, for accomplishments and historical ranking, I can't see a valid case to even have Floyd in the conversation.
2) Overall abilities: Tough to beat Floyd but for me he never showed the ability to hammer out a tough, brutal fight. He's never had to, so he very well may be able to, but I've never seen him beat an elite fighter by gutting it out. Maidana and Castillo were solid, but not JCC, Duran, Armstrong...etc., elite and they gave him fits. Jesus Chavez roughed Floyd up as did Hatton. So, in summary: I feel those guys have power, toughness and killer instinct that Floyd does not. Those guys all closed the show against elite opposition.
I find it strange the criteria changes so often in front of my face, like I'm the mark in a three card monte game.
I'll say "well Floyd has gone 18 years undefeated", people will say "well he ducked this guy, fought this guy at a different weight, this guy was no good... to summarize, his opponents were shitty."
I'll ask, "well why was Hank Armstrong so much better than Floyd", people will say "oh well he beat 20 guys in a month." (or whatever the fuck he did).
I'll say "well, were his opponents any good? I thought it was quality, not quantity, that mattered", people say "yeah, they were good."
I'll say "well, a lot of them had losing records or were very inexperienced", people say "yeah but there's no way Floyd could beat 20 guys in a month."
I'll say this too: I like how, when speaking of these guys, we bring up all the positives they did, but nobody ever brings up the shortcomings.
Take Duran: I'm supposed to believe that Duran was the superior fighter to Floyd. Duran went from lightweight to super middleweight and won a bunch of titles. Cool. Good for him. He also quit in the middle of a world championship fight because he had a stomach cramp. He also dropped decisions to several unheralded fighters like Laing and Robbie Sims. He also, after beating SRL in the first fight, came up short against all his best peers. How come these blaring shortcomings aren't considered when evaluating him?
I've heard "well, Duran's run at lightweight makes him the greatest alone"... yet how many people could name a guy he beat at LW other than Dejesus and Buchanan?
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
That's two different discussions you are having. Accomplishments and historical standing is separate from head to head match ups and who people "think" was the better overall fighter. Those discussions of "who is better r completely subjective, and they rarely account for style match ups...etc. I will explain how I think those guys you named break out from Floyd in each way though.
1) Accomplishments: This is where it isn't even debatable for me. Floyd never ducked anyone, I know, bathe hasn't beaten the ATGs, HOFers...etc., that those top 5 did. Maybe Pep is debatable, but I don't have Willie in my top 5, I have Ali instead. Floyd has NEVER "slain the dragon". Think Duran jumping to WW n beating the prime Leonard. Think Leonard beating Duran, Hearns n then the complete monster in Hagler. Floyd never beat the sheer number of ATG/HOFers that SRR, and rarely in such spectacular fashion. As impressive as retiring undefeated is (Ricardo Lopez, Joe C n Marciano), Henry Armstrong simultaneously holding 3 of 8 (should've been 4 of 8 but he was robbed vs Garcia) world titles available, defending the WW title over 20 times in a year with most of those being stoppages and beating a good number of ATG/HOF fighters along the way is more impressive. While Floyd is popular and transcends boxing, he is nowhere near the icon Ali was and has NEVER produced historical fights or comebacks like Ali and Leonard did. So, for accomplishments and historical ranking, I can't see a valid case to even have Floyd in the conversation.
2) Overall abilities: Tough to beat Floyd but for me he never showed the ability to hammer out a tough, brutal fight. He's never had to, so he very well may be able to, but I've never seen him beat an elite fighter by gutting it out. Maidana and Castillo were solid, but not JCC, Duran, Armstrong...etc., elite and they gave him fits. Jesus Chavez roughed Floyd up as did Hatton. So, in summary: I feel those guys have power, toughness and killer instinct that Floyd does not. Those guys all closed the show against elite opposition.
I find it strange the criteria changes so often in front of my face, like I'm the mark in a three card monte game.
I'll say "well Floyd has gone 18 years undefeated", people will say "well he ducked this guy, fought this guy at a different weight, this guy was no good... to summarize, his opponents were shitty."
I'll ask, "well why was Hank Armstrong so much better than Floyd", people will say "oh well he beat 20 guys in a month." (or whatever the fuck he did).
I'll say "well, were his opponents any good? I thought it was quality, not quantity, that mattered", people say "yeah, they were good."
I'll say "well, a lot of them had losing records or were very inexperienced", people say "yeah but there's no way Floyd could beat 20 guys in a month."
I'll say this too: I like how, when speaking of these guys, we bring up all the positives they did, but nobody ever brings up the shortcomings.
Take Duran: I'm supposed to believe that Duran was the superior fighter to Floyd. Duran went from lightweight to super middleweight and won a bunch of titles. Cool. Good for him. He also quit in the middle of a world championship fight because he had a stomach cramp. He also dropped decisions to several unheralded fighters like Laing and Robbie Sims. He also, after beating SRL in the first fight, came up short against all his best peers. How come these blaring shortcomings aren't considered when evaluating him?
I've heard "well, Duran's run at lightweight makes him the greatest alone"... yet how many people could name a guy he beat at LW other than Dejesus and Buchanan?
I adore the 70s fighters- but I can play devils advocate.
That's why I questioned Ali's comp as well as SRL:Frazier,Norton,Forman for example. The dragon they slayed was Ali? excluding Forman who beat the guys who beat Ali:convincingly. And Ali never slayed Frazier or Norton let alone beat them convincingly...more like he beat them off of him...barely.
Same with SRL:Hearns, Haglar, Duran.
Yet defenders of Ray never say he (ducked) Pryor. Or why he chose Duran (who turned pro in 68!) for 1st title defense.
Hearns slayed what dragon? 27-6 Cuevas? a 16yr vet in Duran? Barkley whooped his ass everytime.
What slick boxers compare to PBF that those guys fight?
In 10 years or so, Floyd's generation of fans will hollar the same stuff. The champ in the year 2025 will not be on par with that old legend named Floyd Mayweather jr.
It'll be some receded bald head ass old fart of a fan who will say... please this whooper-snapper couldn't handle the fighters back in my day... Mayweather fought Cotto, Canelo, Maidana ..yada yada...
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Exactly. It wont be long before these Floyd fans will be rolling their eyes at kids claiming the new current "star" is the best ever.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
That's two different discussions you are having. Accomplishments and historical standing is separate from head to head match ups and who people "think" was the better overall fighter. Those discussions of "who is better r completely subjective, and they rarely account for style match ups...etc. I will explain how I think those guys you named break out from Floyd in each way though.
1) Accomplishments: This is where it isn't even debatable for me. Floyd never ducked anyone, I know, bathe hasn't beaten the ATGs, HOFers...etc., that those top 5 did. Maybe Pep is debatable, but I don't have Willie in my top 5, I have Ali instead. Floyd has NEVER "slain the dragon". Think Duran jumping to WW n beating the prime Leonard. Think Leonard beating Duran, Hearns n then the complete monster in Hagler. Floyd never beat the sheer number of ATG/HOFers that SRR, and rarely in such spectacular fashion. As impressive as retiring undefeated is (Ricardo Lopez, Joe C n Marciano), Henry Armstrong simultaneously holding 3 of 8 (should've been 4 of 8 but he was robbed vs Garcia) world titles available, defending the WW title over 20 times in a year with most of those being stoppages and beating a good number of ATG/HOF fighters along the way is more impressive. While Floyd is popular and transcends boxing, he is nowhere near the icon Ali was and has NEVER produced historical fights or comebacks like Ali and Leonard did. So, for accomplishments and historical ranking, I can't see a valid case to even have Floyd in the conversation.
2) Overall abilities: Tough to beat Floyd but for me he never showed the ability to hammer out a tough, brutal fight. He's never had to, so he very well may be able to, but I've never seen him beat an elite fighter by gutting it out. Maidana and Castillo were solid, but not JCC, Duran, Armstrong...etc., elite and they gave him fits. Jesus Chavez roughed Floyd up as did Hatton. So, in summary: I feel those guys have power, toughness and killer instinct that Floyd does not. Those guys all closed the show against elite opposition.
I find it strange the criteria changes so often in front of my face, like I'm the mark in a three card monte game.
I'll say "well Floyd has gone 18 years undefeated", people will say "well he ducked this guy, fought this guy at a different weight, this guy was no good... to summarize, his opponents were shitty."
I'll ask, "well why was Hank Armstrong so much better than Floyd", people will say "oh well he beat 20 guys in a month." (or whatever the fuck he did).
I'll say "well, were his opponents any good? I thought it was quality, not quantity, that mattered", people say "yeah, they were good."
I'll say "well, a lot of them had losing records or were very inexperienced", people say "yeah but there's no way Floyd could beat 20 guys in a month."
I'll say this too: I like how, when speaking of these guys, we bring up all the positives they did, but nobody ever brings up the shortcomings.
Take Duran: I'm supposed to believe that Duran was the superior fighter to Floyd. Duran went from lightweight to super middleweight and won a bunch of titles. Cool. Good for him. He also quit in the middle of a world championship fight because he had a stomach cramp. He also dropped decisions to several unheralded fighters like Laing and Robbie Sims. He also, after beating SRL in the first fight, came up short against all his best peers. How come these blaring shortcomings aren't considered when evaluating him?
I've heard "well, Duran's run at lightweight makes him the greatest alone"... yet how many people could name a guy he beat at LW other than Dejesus and Buchanan?
Duran beat Leonard. You can't find anyone on Floyd's record/resume close to prime Leonard. Not even close. Duran also completely cleaned out lightweight. Completely cleaned it out and had only suffered one avenged loss prior to beating Leonard. Again, just off of that I rank him higher than Floyd.
My two main points for Armstrong are his beating ATG/HOFers and holding 3 of 8 available titles simultaneously. The defenses in one year was thrown in to show how busy he was. To ur point on quality of opposition: if Floyd averaged two fights a month he would get the benefit of the doubt, as long as he still fought the top guys along the way.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Duran beat Leonard. You can't find anyone on Floyd's record/resume close to prime Leonard. Not even close. Duran also completely cleaned out lightweight. Completely cleaned it out and had only suffered one avenged loss prior to beating Leonard. Again, just off of that I rank him higher than Floyd.
My two main points for Armstrong are his beating ATG/HOFers and holding 3 of 8 available titles simultaneously. The defenses in one year was thrown in to show how busy he was. To ur point on quality of opposition: if Floyd averaged two fights a month he would get the benefit of the doubt, as long as he still fought the top guys along the way.
I can find someone close to prime Leonard on Mayweather's resume. It's Floyd Mayweather. He's the most agile, dexterous, skilled fighter of his weight classes and era. He doesn't have a Leonard to fight.
If Floyd were allowed to hold titles in three weight divisions at once he probably would but that's prohibited now. He has held titles in two weight divisions at the same time but has always been forced to give one up.
Floyd has beat ATG/HOFers and future HOFers as well... Oscar, Arturo, Shane? Canelo?, JMM?.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Duran beat Leonard. You can't find anyone on Floyd's record/resume close to prime Leonard. Not even close. Duran also completely cleaned out lightweight. Completely cleaned it out and had only suffered one avenged loss prior to beating Leonard. Again, just off of that I rank him higher than Floyd.
My two main points for Armstrong are his beating ATG/HOFers and holding 3 of 8 available titles simultaneously. The defenses in one year was thrown in to show how busy he was. To ur point on quality of opposition: if Floyd averaged two fights a month he would get the benefit of the doubt, as long as he still fought the top guys along the way.
Again, you gave me one name (Leonard) and then you reverted right back to quantity over quality. How good was this division that Duran cleaned out? Can someone tell me?
On the ATG/HOF argument... it's disingenuous and inaccurate to present a HOF induction as a standard of quality that automatically puts a boxer above non-HOFers. Like anything, HOFs by nature are political and look more favorably on old timers and pioneers.
Example of some HOFers:
Sixto Escobar: 39-23
Battling Battalino: 57-26
Cinderella Man James Braddock: 46-24, famous upset of Baer
Young Corbett: 68-22
George Dixon: 50-26
Mysterious Billy Smith: 30-24
Pipino Cuevas: 35-15
Joey Maxim: 82-29 (of course, most famous for being dominated by SRR for 13 rounds before SRR collapsed from heat exhaustion)
Lew Jenkins: 70-39
Ect ect ect
Now all these guys were champs at some point and all were very capable fighters. But am I really to believe Mysterious Billy Smith was a more impressive win than, let's say, Ricky Hatton, simply because Smith is in the HOF and Hatton isn't? Or that James Braddock, a dirt poor club fighter who managed to pull off a huge upset and win the world title (only to lose it brutally in his next fight) is a higher quality opponent than, let's say, a David Haye?
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Interesting direction this thread has turned.
If Duran @ 5'7 (66 inch reach) is brought up as beating a prime leonard 5'10 (74 inch reach), then does that make Duran better than a (prime) Leonard?
When SRL won the rematch Nov 80' was Duran in his prime? Or did a (prime)Ray avenge a loss to an (out of prime) Duran?
What was SRL's prime? He turned pro in 77' - 82. One fight in 84. & was he still in his prime when he came back in 87? He went 3-3.
As for PBF- he fought a slick, fast south paw in Judah ( I think Benitez for SRL) was better than Judah, but IMO they compare as mobile fighters with speed & pop.
Castillo is no Duran, by a longshot, but PBF took on a bodypunching hombre for sure & had to take the title from Hernandez @ 5'11. It was no run fight, PBF stood and fought.
SRL 5'10 vs Hearns 6'1 w/71% KO ratio per boxrec -- SRL was down on all card till the KO
PBF @ 5'8 vs Corrales 5'10 1/2 w/73% KO ratio per boxrec-- PBF dropped Diego 5 times
SRL simply didn't fight long enough to merit a better resume than PBF. struggled with Benitez & Hearns to the end & He didn't clean out a single divison- Like Duran did. So are we now comparing Duran's competition to PBF's?
Since Pacquio never cleaned a division either -lost in almost every weight class he fought & had no top names from 95-03'- technically no (in prime)competition till 09' IMO.
...now JMM cleaned out the same divison as Duran.
So would it now change from PBF vs Pac comp to: JMM vs Duran's comp?:lickish:
@ LW JMM beat linear champ Casamayor, the man who called out Pac (Juan Diaz) the other dude who called out Pac (Katsidis) This was after moving up from where he beat Gainer, Salido, Juarez & MAB.
One could argue that PBF's comp is better than Pac's, SRL's
& JMM's comp was better than Duran @ Fther & LW. Duran fought more @ LW, but also had more tomato can-fighters as well.
Head to Head: Duran vs JMM @ LW would be a dream fight. I'd edge Duran, but thats speculation. Factually? JMM & PBF has fought more quality and versatile competition- with PBF doing it 18 years; quantity and quality.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
I think for sure Floyd fought better opposition overall than SRL just by numbers.
I will say that I think SRL's win over Hagler was a better win than any of Floyd's wins.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
I do not like Leonard (or Floyd for that matter) but his victory over Hearns was what a great fighter is made of. He was fighting another great fighter who had huge power and was behind on the cards but he came back. I do not believe Floyd would have beaten that Hearns, but that is unfair of Floyd because that was not his best weight.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
I think for sure Floyd fought better opposition overall than SRL just by numbers.
I will say that I think SRL's win over Hagler was a better win than any of Floyd's wins.
Agreed.
Haglar is one of the greatest MW's of all time and to do it coming out of retirement is off the charts fabulous.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I do not like Leonard (or Floyd for that matter) but his victory over Hearns was what a great fighter is made of. He was fighting another great fighter who had huge power and was behind on the cards but he came back. I do not believe Floyd would have beaten that Hearns, but that is unfair of Floyd because that was not his best weight.
I can't argue that, styles do make fights.
Sorry to repeat- but I am playing the D-advocate. I prefer the era of Hearns-Haglar-Duran-SRL over the current one.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
For a guy with only 40 fights, Leonard packed a lot into his time in boxing.
IMO Leonard faced more adversity in his 40 fight career than a lot of old timers faced in their 200 fight careers.
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The money in this game now limits the output for fighters.
Theres no way of measuring if inactivity in todays era would go against yesterdays legends.
Floyd and pac fight a maximum of twice a year and I do accept it has to be that way now.
Leonard beat duran, hearns and hagler and is used to 15round fights and Im sure in his heyday he was fighting alot more than todays elite.
Leonard would give floyd problems in every way but floyd is a great adapter to any style..who knows what the hell would happen!
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
The money in this game now limits the output for fighters.
I wish I could remember the fight. Haglar had just won and post fight interview he calls someone out and says this:
"I offered him 150 thousand dollars, now whose gonna turn down that kind of money."
;D;D
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I do not like Leonard (or Floyd for that matter) but his victory over Hearns was what a great fighter is made of. He was fighting another great fighter who had huge power and was behind on the cards but he came back. I do not believe Floyd would have beaten that Hearns, but that is unfair of Floyd because that was not his best weight.
I can't argue that, styles do make fights.
Sorry to repeat- but I am playing the D-advocate. I prefer the era of Hearns-Haglar-Duran-SRL over the current one.
I know you are playing devils advocate but I think Leonard got the eye injured against Hearns.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I do not like Leonard (or Floyd for that matter) but his victory over Hearns was what a great fighter is made of. He was fighting another great fighter who had huge power and was behind on the cards but he came back. I do not believe Floyd would have beaten that Hearns, but that is unfair of Floyd because that was not his best weight.
I can't argue that, styles do make fights.
Sorry to repeat- but I am playing the D-advocate. I prefer the era of Hearns-Haglar-Duran-SRL over the current one.
I know you are playing devils advocate but I think Leonard got the eye injured against Hearns.
Agreed. Didn't a boxer previous start the retina problems? I've read about it....awhile back.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I do not like Leonard (or Floyd for that matter) but his victory over Hearns was what a great fighter is made of. He was fighting another great fighter who had huge power and was behind on the cards but he came back. I do not believe Floyd would have beaten that Hearns, but that is unfair of Floyd because that was not his best weight.
I can't argue that, styles do make fights.
Sorry to repeat- but I am playing the D-advocate. I prefer the era of Hearns-Haglar-Duran-SRL over the current one.
I know you are playing devils advocate but I think Leonard got the eye injured against Hearns.
Agreed. Didn't a boxer previous start the retina problems? I've read about it....awhile back.
His eye was seriously injured during the Hearns fight and was never put right until after he fought Hagler. What I am saying is Leonard could have avoided fighting such a dangerous challenge by making all sorts of demands to get out of the fight because his career was cut short because of it. Yet Sugar Ray did not and still does not claim to be the best ever.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Duran beat Leonard. You can't find anyone on Floyd's record/resume close to prime Leonard. Not even close. Duran also completely cleaned out lightweight. Completely cleaned it out and had only suffered one avenged loss prior to beating Leonard. Again, just off of that I rank him higher than Floyd.
My two main points for Armstrong are his beating ATG/HOFers and holding 3 of 8 available titles simultaneously. The defenses in one year was thrown in to show how busy he was. To ur point on quality of opposition: if Floyd averaged two fights a month he would get the benefit of the doubt, as long as he still fought the top guys along the way.
I can find someone close to prime Leonard on Mayweather's resume. It's Floyd Mayweather. He's the most agile, dexterous, skilled fighter of his weight classes and era. He doesn't have a Leonard to fight.
If Floyd were allowed to hold titles in three weight divisions at once he probably would but that's prohibited now. He has held titles in two weight divisions at the same time but has always been forced to give one up.
Floyd has beat ATG/HOFers and future HOFers as well... Oscar, Arturo, Shane? Canelo?, JMM?.
Alright shortbus, here is boxing lesson #100 for you.
Oscar: Yes, he is a HOFer. He was also well past his best/prime when he fought Floyd. You don't get full credit for squeaking out a win vs. a guy who is over the hill.
Gatti: ??????? Bwahahahahahaa. You're a good troll. This was a very clever guy to include. Considered a "C" fighter by Floyd. Not an impressive win at all, and Gatti was on the tail end of a career that saw him take numerous beatings.
Canelo: Hahaha. How do you figure he is a HOFer? You are an effective troll because you have zero qualms making completely asinine comments. Canelo has disputed wins over Lara and Trout, and those are his best wins!!! Definite HOF material.
JMM: You don't get full credit for beating a guy jumping two weights and completely refusing to make the agreed upon weight.
You're welcome
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Interesting direction this thread has turned.
If Duran @ 5'7 (66 inch reach) is brought up as beating a prime leonard 5'10 (74 inch reach), then does that make Duran better than a (prime) Leonard? Yes, it's why Duran is usually ranked higher than Leonard on most p4p lists.
When SRL won the rematch Nov 80' was Duran in his prime? Or did a (prime)Ray avenge a loss to an (out of prime) Duran? Duran started his decline after beating Leonard the first time, partying and barely training for the rematch and putting on tremendous weight prior to the rematch and then made this a habit for the rest of his career.
What was SRL's prime? He turned pro in 77' - 82. One fight in 84. & was he still in his prime when he came back in 87? He went 3-3. Not sure what point you are trying to make here, but wouldn't consider him prime in 87.
As for PBF- he fought a slick, fast south paw in Judah ( I think Benitez for SRL) was better than Judah, but IMO they compare as mobile fighters with speed & pop. Only you would feel they are comparable. Judah was destroyed vs. Kostya and is nowhere near the boxer ATG Benitez was. If you consider them comparable, it is only because you are completely biased and want to fluff Floyd's record.
Castillo is no Duran, by a longshot, but PBF took on a bodypunching hombre for sure & had to take the title from Hernandez @ 5'11. It was no run fight, PBF stood and fought. Castillo won the first fight, and wasn't an elite fighter. Hernandez stated prior to the Floyd fight that he was done boxing and would retire after the Floyd fight. He didn't offer very much resistance at all.
SRL 5'10 vs Hearns 6'1 w/71% KO ratio per boxrec -- SRL was down on all card till the KO
PBF @ 5'8 vs Corrales 5'10 1/2 w/73% KO ratio per boxrec-- PBF dropped Diego 5 times This is a joke. Hearns vs. Chico? No comparison. Hearns is an ATG, prime, undefeated welter who destroyed guys like Cuevas and Duran. Chico was a formidable opponent and good win, but his big win was over Gainer. Hearns was versatile and his fight vs. Leonard is one of the best in history, as was his fight vs. Hagler. Chico had a great win and fight vs. Castillo, but Castillo is no where near the level of Hagler/leonard. This was a pathetic and sad comparison.
SRL simply didn't fight long enough to merit a better resume than PBF. struggled with Benitez & Hearns to the end & He didn't clean out a single divison- Like Duran did. So are we now comparing Duran's competition to PBF's? Leonard fought the much better competition. It's not even open for debate. Floyd feasted on more sub par competition than Leonard, and he never fought the ATGs in their prime like Leonard did.
Since Pacquio never cleaned a division either -lost in almost every weight class he fought & had no top names from 95-03'- technically no (in prime)competition till 09' IMO. You are in denial and this is an ignorant statement. Barrera was ranked p4p when Pac fought him. Ledwaba was undefeated. Morales was prime as was JMM. Pac never lost at Featherweight. Pretty much your whole statement is wrong.
...now JMM cleaned out the same divison as Duran.
So would it now change from PBF vs Pac comp to: JMM vs Duran's comp?:lickish:
@ LW JMM beat linear champ Casamayor, the man who called out Pac (Juan Diaz) the other dude who called out Pac (Katsidis) This was after moving up from where he beat Gainer, Salido, Juarez & MAB.
One could argue that PBF's comp is better than Pac's, SRL's
& JMM's comp was better than Duran @ Fther & LW. Duran fought more @ LW, but also had more tomato can-fighters as well. I think you are the only one, maybe Rocco and TMT also, who would argue that PBF had better comp. It's pretty silly, and most knowledgable historians completely disagree with you. You are delusional.
Head to Head: Duran vs JMM @ LW would be a dream fight. I'd edge Duran, but thats speculation. Factually? JMM & PBF has fought more quality and versatile competition- with PBF doing it 18 years; quantity and quality.
JMM has fought very good competition, but not more versatile or better. Floyd isn't even in the debate.
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Oscar is a first ballot HOF inductee. Floyd moved up to fight him at his natural fighting weight and he beat him before Manny did. Manny fought ODL at a weight Oscar hadn't fought at in 8 years. Some accomplishment.
Gatti is also in the HOF. This is a fact. Mayweather dismantled him in 5 rounds.
JMM is certainly a future HOFmer.
Mosely is a future HOFmer.
Canelo may also be a future HOFmer.
If Floyd were allowed to hold titles in three weight divisions at once he probably would but that's prohibited now. He has held titles in two weight divisions at the same time but has always been forced to give one up.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Oscar is a first ballot HOF inductee. Floyd moved up to fight him at his natural fighting weight and he beat him before Manny did. Manny fought ODL at a weight Oscar hadn't fought at in 8 years. Some accomplishment. I haven't seen anyone but you list Oscar as one of Manny's biggest wins. There are numerous wins much more impressive like Cotto, Hatton, Morales, Bradley, JMM, Barerra, Ledwaba...etc. stick with those.
Gatti is also in the HOF. This is a fact. Mayweather dismantled him in 5 rounds. Gatti is in the HOF for the excitement he generated, not his boxing pedigree. Gatti was a tough guy and good man, but the fact that you put him on as a big win for PBF shows how much you have to reach. Angel Manfredy beat a more prime version of Gatti, as did Mickey Ward. Should they be HOF too????
JMM is certainly a future HOFmer.
Mosely is a future HOFmer.
Canelo may also be a future HOFer. Based off of what? What has Canelo done to even merit uttering the words HOF with his name? You are delusional.
If Floyd were allowed to hold titles in three weight divisions at once he probably would but that's prohibited now. He has held titles in two weight divisions at the same time but has always been forced to give one up.
Manny has faced tougher comp. I'm interested to see who he picks after Algieri as I know it will be a big fight.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Manny picking Algeiri is more of a joke than anyone Floyd has fought in the last 10 years or so.
At first, I was justifying Manny picking Algeiri because he was moving down to 140 and wanted to grab a trinket to facilitate a showdown with Danny Garcia. I didn't know until recently that the fight was happening at WW, a weight Algeiri has never fought at, and therefore is for Manny's WBO WW belt and not Algeiri's LWW belt.
It's one of the most blatant examples of a hand picked patsy I've ever seen.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Manny picking Algeiri is more of a joke than anyone Floyd has fought in the last 10 years or so.
At first, I was justifying Manny picking Algeiri because he was moving down to 140 and wanted to grab a trinket to facilitate a showdown with Danny Garcia. I didn't know until recently that the fight was happening at WW, a weight Algeiri has never fought at, and therefore is for Manny's WBO WW belt and not Algeiri's LWW belt.
It's one of the most blatant examples of a hand picked patsy I've ever seen.
I think it is a weak match up, and I won't pay the money to watch it or point to it as one of Manny's good, or even solid wins after. That being said, after coming off of a Bradley type opponent, I'm good with him having a soft fight. I actually think Algieri would beat Maidana, so I don't really see your outrage for the fight. I would agree with you that neither Algieri or Maidana were/are PPV worthy fighters. If Manny starts fighting soft touches back to back, I will be the first to be critical. Hard for me to fault him when he fights someone like JMM and is KTFO, comes back for Rios (as a soft touch comeback fight), then takes on Bradley who is undefeated and just beaten JMM before taking on another guy not at that elite level. I see Manny picking Garcia or some big name after Algieri, so other than it being on PPV, I don't mind it. I thought the kid looked good against Prov and he actually looks like the bigger man to me when I see them side by side. Manny should be 135-140 in my opinion.
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Bradley already beat prov and he is nothing special.
People are trying to create these european beasts in every divison but prov isnt one of them.
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Oscar is a first ballot HOF inductee. Floyd moved up to fight him at his natural fighting weight and he beat him before Manny did. Manny fought ODL at a weight Oscar hadn't fought at in 8 years. Some accomplishment.
Gatti is also in the HOF. This is a fact. Mayweather dismantled him in 5 rounds.
JMM is certainly a future HOFmer.
Mosely is a future HOFmer.
Canelo may also be a future HOFmer.
If Floyd were allowed to hold titles in three weight divisions at once he probably would but that's prohibited now. He has held titles in two weight divisions at the same time but has always been forced to give one up.
Als if he was allowed defend tem against whoever he wants he probably would. Pesky mandatories
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Bradley already beat prov and he is nothing special.
People are trying to create these european beasts in every divison but prov isnt one of them.
You should tell that to Timmy.
"A few weeks after the fight, I was still affected by the damage that was done," he said. "My speech was a little bit off. I was slurring a little bit. But after about two months, I cleared up and I have my wits about me now." - Tim Bradley
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Re: Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Manny picking Algeiri is more of a joke than anyone Floyd has fought in the last 10 years or so.
At first, I was justifying Manny picking Algeiri because he was moving down to 140 and wanted to grab a trinket to facilitate a showdown with Danny Garcia. I didn't know until recently that the fight was happening at WW, a weight Algeiri has never fought at, and therefore is for Manny's WBO WW belt and not Algeiri's LWW belt.
It's one of the most blatant examples of a hand picked patsy I've ever seen.
It's a catchweight fight. Remember it's all about what have you done for me lately. Unbeaten guy coming off "world" title win, makes sense
