Nacho Beristain: Marquez doesn't have the speed!

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Originally Posted by the inbetweener

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Originally Posted by mnmc10

you really cant compare a olympic sprinters muscles to a boxer. a boxer needs stamina sprinters has very little. marathon runner maybe and we all know how a marathon runners physique is.


you can gain weight by just eating a lot and get fat or eat and build up muscles. a boxers speed might be affected a little since you gained more weight.

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My original point was on muscle mass affecting speed; I never said it was the ideal boxer's physique.

Also, your point is academic: A marathon is consistent running/fast jogging over 2.5 hours and a boxing match is quick bursts of staccato action throughout a round, as well as minute's rest between them. Of course stamina is required, but it is combined with speed and explosive power. This is why many more boxers these days don't do long jogs, preferring to weight train, do short, sharp sprints and spar.

I don't really understand how you can imply a fighter's speed can diminish if he gains lean mass (within reason). Is Pacquiao really any slower at 140 than he was at 122?

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have you tried to box before? or go at a heavy bag before? we are talking about lower weights here not heavies. heavies can go with spurts but not light weights. stamina is the biggest factor here, you compared muscle mass of 100m sprinters. they dont have the stamina to go 12 rounds. yes they have the speed but ony good for 10 seconds. muscle mass eats a lot of energy you only have speed if you have stamina. so yes bigger muscles will make you slower.

take a way long runs in boxing training and the boxer is doomed. pac lost some speed on heavier weights but good thing that he is still faster than anyone he fought. you will notice that pac is holding back a little more than before.

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Originally Posted by mnmc10

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Originally Posted by the inbetweener

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Originally Posted by mnmc10

you really cant compare a olympic sprinters muscles to a boxer. a boxer needs stamina sprinters has very little. marathon runner maybe and we all know how a marathon runners physique is.


you can gain weight by just eating a lot and get fat or eat and build up muscles. a boxers speed might be affected a little since you gained more weight.

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My original point was on muscle mass affecting speed; I never said it was the ideal boxer's physique.

Also, your point is academic: A marathon is consistent running/fast jogging over 2.5 hours and a boxing match is quick bursts of staccato action throughout a round, as well as minute's rest between them. Of course stamina is required, but it is combined with speed and explosive power. This is why many more boxers these days don't do long jogs, preferring to weight train, do short, sharp sprints and spar.

I don't really understand how you can imply a fighter's speed can diminish if he gains lean mass (within reason). Is Pacquiao really any slower at 140 than he was at 122?

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have you tried to box before? or go at a heavy bag before? we are talking about lower weights here not heavies. heavies can go with spurts but not light weights. stamina is the biggest factor here, you compared muscle mass of 100m sprinters. they dont have the stamina to go 12 rounds. yes they have the speed but ony good for 10 seconds. muscle mass eats a lot of energy you only have speed if you have stamina. so yes bigger muscles will make you slower.

take a way long runs in boxing training and the boxer is doomed. pac lost some speed on heavier weights but good thing that he is still faster than anyone he fought. you will notice that pac is holding back a little more than before.

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Exactly and this is the main reason why lifting weights or actually I should say heavy weight lifting is discouraged in boxing. The famous trainer Angelo Dundee discourages weight lifting in boxing especially for HWs because stamina becomes a major issue with them. Look at guys like Frank Bruno who was into Heavy weight lifting, he had shit stamina, Mike Tyson when he came out of prison lifted weights (probably started in prison) he too began to have shit stamina, that was never the case early in his career. David Haye is another guy that loves to lift heavy weights, and guess what his stamina has come into question. Even Shane Mosely said it left him gassed in the later rounds of fights and he lost his fluidity.

I have to say yeah lifting heavy weights will get you that nice physique, but in boxing you're screwing yourself over.

Another good example of how speed is retained when moving up weights classes might be Roy Jones Jnr. He refused to use weights.
Instead, it was all push-up's & sit-up's.

He only touched weights for the 1st time when moving up to Heavyweight.

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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing

Hmmmmmmmmmmm Sounds like Pac's opponents lacking: Power, youth, and speed,. Who was the last one that had these attributes?

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youve been bashing pac for the longest time man! do you really think that you can change the way we think about pac? last time i checked pac fans outnumbers pac haters world wide. you and your gang can hate on pac 24/7 maybe convince some saddo forumers to join your group. you can shoo or get some pacfanatics banned in thi forum but you guys wont be able to convince the whole world that pac is just an ordinary boxer who fought old boxers who by the way does good against other fighters but not versus pac.

pac nuthuggers over praises pac as much as haters bash on him. the way i see it everytime a nuthugger mentions pacs name haters just jump on it immediately like a fish foolishly biting on a fishing hook with no bait. lol this is stupid!;D

A lot of people dont know wtf they are talking about in this thread regarding training. Seriously. Especially mnmc10. This isnt 1940 and running 10 miles a day isnt the answer. And no I dont want to debate it cuz its rediculous.

who said a boxer needs to run 10miles? the other guy said most boxers now doesnt jog and only do "sharp sprints"? besides im no boxer or trainer maybe you can enligthen us youngblood? name an active boxer who does not run atleast 5miles during training.

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Originally Posted by mnmc10

who said a boxer needs to run 10miles? besides im no boxer or trainer maybe you can enligthen us youngblood? the other guy said most boxers now doesnt jog and only do "sharp sprints"?

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Simply, you can access the same systems for aerobic and anaeribic conditioning with specially designed sprints, namely tabatas, as well HIITs without losing power and strength (or ending up in a catabolic state having muscle depletion, be it lean or whatev) and still get the benefits of endurance. And have the explosiveness needed of the sprinter Re: accessing fast twitch muscle fibre. Much needed. Weights are very common to just about every boxer nowadays. Just need to be done properly (and diet surrounding it). Distance running is used more these days to shed weight then endurance. Variety is the key, to create muscle confusion to avoid plateau and continue to progress through barriers, in cardio and strength.

Distance is ok, but certainly shouldn't be the mainstay of a cardio training regime. Not any more. We have just learned a lot more. They are only a small part of a routine. It's a bit of an old wives tale that it is the staple of boxers, along with only bodyweight workouts. And that heavy lifting = mass = bad. I guess I just got sucked into it, didn't I.

I think a lot of people, and even boxers beginning tend to think of the old training regimes being what is optimal for the sport. But it simply isn't.

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have you tried to box before? or go at a heavy bag before? we are talking about lower weights here not heavies. heavies can go with spurts but not light weights. stamina is the biggest factor here, you compared muscle mass of 100m sprinters. they dont have the stamina to go 12 rounds. yes they have the speed but ony good for 10 seconds. muscle mass eats a lot of energy you only have speed if you have stamina. so yes bigger muscles will make you slower.

take a way long runs in boxing training and the boxer is doomed. pac lost some speed on heavier weights but good thing that he is still faster than anyone he fought. you will notice that pac is holding back a little more than before.

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Okay, again, my point was about muscle mass affecting pure speed, not stamina; earlier posters in the thread said that Marquez would perhaps be slower.

What you appear to be saying is that a muscular fighter may be quick, but only momentarily because he will get tired. That's what conditioning's for. Correct nutrition, hiit and sparring (actually doing the sport itself is the best way to be conditioned for it), and those muscles could be fueled quite easily to go 12 rounds. It's about getting the right balance of fast twitch (speed, explosive power) and slow twitch (stamina) muscle fibres. It's all about the perfect balance, even at lower weights, not just stamina. No point in being able to jog around a ring for 36 mins, if you can't explode foward and land a powerful punch on your opponent's chin.

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Exactly and this is the main reason why lifting weights or actually I should say heavy weight lifting is discouraged in boxing. The famous trainer Angelo Dundee discourages weight lifting in boxing especially for HWs because stamina becomes a major issue with them. Look at guys like Frank Bruno who was into Heavy weight lifting, he had shit stamina, Mike Tyson when he came out of prison lifted weights (probably started in prison) he too began to have shit stamina, that was never the case early in his career. David Haye is another guy that loves to lift heavy weights, and guess what his stamina has come into question. Even Shane Mosely said it left him gassed in the later rounds of fights and he lost his fluidity.

I have to say yeah lifting heavy weights will get you that nice physique, but in boxing you're screwing yourself over.

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Heavy weight lifting doesn't necessarily equate massive muscle size. Perhaps you should give these a read:

Bodybuilding.com - Jamie Hale - Real Strength Training For Boxers!

Bodybuilding.com - Jamie Hale - Real Strength Training For Boxers: Part 2!

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Simply, you can access the same systems for aerobic and anaeribic conditioning with specially designed sprints, namely tabatas, as well HIITs without losing power and strength (or ending up in a catabolic state having muscle depletion, be it lean or whatev) and still get the benefits of endurance. And have the explosiveness needed of the sprinter Re: accessing fast twitch muscle fibre. Much needed. Weights are very common to just about every boxer nowadays. Just need to be done properly (and diet surrounding it). Distance running is used more these days to shed weight then endurance. Variety is the key, to create muscle confusion to avoid plateau and continue to progress through barriers, in cardio and strength.

Distance is ok, but certainly shouldn't be the mainstay of a cardio training regime. Not any more. We have just learned a lot more. They are only a small part of a routine. It's a bit of an old wives tale that it is the staple of boxers, along with only bodyweight workouts. And that heavy lifting = mass = bad. I guess I just got sucked into it, didn't I.

I think a lot of people, and even boxers beginning tend to think of the old training regimes being what is optimal for the sport. But it simply isn't.

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These are a lot of the points I was trying to make. Good post, pal.
:lifter:

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

Another good example of how speed is retained when moving up weights classes might be Roy Jones Jnr. He refused to use weights.
Instead, it was all push-up's & sit-up's.

He only touched weights for the 1st time when moving up to Heavyweight.

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I'm not entirely convinced Roy Jones never did any free weights. But if he didn't, you don't get that physique (see below) without some kind of resistance training. Most likely bodyweight stuff. Pull-ups, dips, press-ups, body weight squats, pistol squats etc.

http://photos.upi.com/topics-Woods-v...68e191f1/P.jpg

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Originally Posted by mnmc10

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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing

Hmmmmmmmmmmm Sounds like Pac's opponents lacking: Power, youth, and speed,. Who was the last one that had these attributes?

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youve been bashing pac for the longest time man! do you really think that you can change the way we think about pac? last time i checked pac fans outnumbers pac haters world wide. you and your gang can hate on pac 24/7 maybe convince some saddo forumers to join your group. you can shoo or get some pacfanatics banned in thi forum but you guys wont be able to convince the whole world that pac is just an ordinary boxer who fought old boxers who by the way does good against other fighters but not versus pac.

pac nuthuggers over praises pac as much as haters bash on him. the way i see it everytime a nuthugger mentions pacs name haters just jump on it immediately like a fish foolishly biting on a fishing hook with no bait. lol this is stupid!;D

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Of course not, I am just writing for a logical response to facts. I am not bashing ! Stop side tracking and give a response by listing the last Pac opponent who had PHYSICAL TRAITS SUCH AS POWER, SPEED AND AGILITY ? Who had not not lost once in his last 3 fights?

STOP THE SMOKE SCREEN ... PAC IS REAL GOOD BUT NOT THE GREATEST ...

Floyd is a slow starter. Marquez better come out blazing with both guns in opening bell.

My prediction:

Marquez by KO inside 5

Or!

Mayweather by usual boring UD.

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Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft

Floyd is a slow starter. Marquez better come out blazing with both guns in opening bell.

My prediction:

Marquez by KO inside 5

Or!

Mayweather by usual boring UD.

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wow marquez by ko inside 5 no less. That is bold....i like your style.