Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
I dont have an issue with people being in agreement and I am certainly far from " The all knowing JT" Nor have I ever made such a proclomation. What had me adgitated was the fact mayweather came back from an almost 2 year layoff and wiped out JMM to the point where he landed only 69 punches in a 12 round fight utilizing over 200 landed jabs and defense. I dont think having JMM as a comeback fight warrants all the denigrating talk thats been going around, simple as that.
It cracks me up people will say Floyd only fights small guys, really no one wanted to see the Hatton fight? Bullshit!! that was one of the most talked about supposed dream match for years and then JMM calls Floyd out and he makes that his comeback fight and all of a sudden Floyd picks on smaller guys:rolleyes:
Then people say he should fight Shane now and he is a pu$$y if he dosent, meanwhile where was Shane the 2x Floyd called him out? Exactly... But people lauded Shane and Hop for disrespecting Floyd and grandstanding during his interview, saying Shanes a stand up guy and good for him although Mosely was implicated in the Balco scandal for Roids and blood doping for the Oscar fight:rolleyes:
Listen JT, Floyd is a dominant fighter. NO debate about that statement. The knock on him is that he has never faced a true, elite welterweight although he has fought at welterweight for the last 4 years. That will always be the knock on him. This debate was happening when Floyd retired two years ago and his domination over Marquez doesn't change anything because Marquez was another smaller fighter he dominated. I won't argue that Floyd may beat all the elite welterweights out there, but he hasn't fought one! Not a single one. And for a while, it was claimed to be the deepest division.
I would rather see Floyd wipe the floor with the elite welterweights than beat up guys who shouldn't fight above 140. Doing so will solidify his greatness.
Floyd will beat him, but at least Pacquiao is willing to be the smaller man and the underdog when going into his fights (he was smaller and the underdog against ODLH and was smaller than Hatton and will be against Cotto). Pacquiao is vulnerable. He takes risks. That is why people like him.
People will say Baldo was a weak Champ, and I agree 100000% but none the less he wasnt a fringe nabo or any other single title holder. He was considered the lineal Champ. Then he fought Oscar for bocu bucks and Hatton for a bizillion dollars too..
No fighter in the History of the sport would have turned down those 2 paydays against DLH and Hatton, no one!! DLH and Baldo enjoyed big damn advantages size wise. He retires, takes a break then takes a get my feet wet agin fight with JMM. So how does Floyd all of a sudden make a career out of fighting smaller guys?
Floyd should be judged adversly on his next few fights if they are against subpar guys who have no business at the weight, but its ridiculous people would go apeshit for making 2 of the richest fights in this era and then taking on JMM albeit a smaller version just to get his feet wet.
Then you have a guy like Hopkins who's biggest wins were against smaller fighters but yet his ass is kissed royally.
Trinidad
DLH
Wright
Pavlik
Etc.
Then he gets beat by Calzaghe who made a career out of 168 .
100% agreed...always thought bernard should thank roy jones for his career..because roy left the division. but Bhop did beat Tarver for the LHW crown..
Oh wait Tarver was super weight drained.
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Hopkins is greater than PBF, like it or not.
he has the better resume and showed the same level of ring dominance.
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
Hopkins is greater than PBF, like it or not.
he has the better resume and showed the same level of ring dominance.
I guess you somehow dispute the above referenced validity Hopkins biggest wins over significantly smaller guys?
I think Nard had a great career and I appreciate all he has done, but I am barking up his tree to illustrate how Floyd is getting ripped on for fighting Hatton and JMM and then all of a sudden given the circumstances involved he is labeled as a big mean school yard bully who only picks on smaller fighters?
Yet Hopkins did it at just about every big fight in his career. Just dosent add up and thats all I was pointing out.
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
he still dominated Johnson and Tarver.
trinidad actually proved himself a top fighter by whooping Joppy. the hopkins-trinidad fight is as good as the sweet science gets.
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
he still dominated Johnson and Tarver.
trinidad actually proved himself a top fighter by whooping Joppy. the hopkins-trinidad fight is as good as the sweet science gets.
Certainly your not going to suggest Tito at 160 was anywere near the hall of Fame legacy he forged at 147 are you?
Tarver got Karma in his face by being drained from a heavy in Rocky Balboa.
Glen Johnson wasnt nearly as good at 160 than he was at 175 either..Glen was a construction worker/slash boxer until he got his big break against Jones
I would actually favor Johnson over Hop now at 175 based on Glens chin, workrate and constant pressure. Hop trying to spoil on the inside wouldnt deter Glen since he likes it messy on the inside. Hopkins enemic output would be his demise against Johnsons aggression and volume
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
first off.. hopkins beats Glen Johnson at MW and LHW. and you're right, Glen Johnson the LHW is a much better fighter than the MW version.
and trinidad obviously forged his HOF career at 147.. he's one of the greats of that weight. i'm saying he was a good fighter at MW.
Tarver was a legitimate win. weight-drained or not.
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
first off.. hopkins beats Glen Johnson at MW and LHW. and you're right, Glen Johnson the LHW is a much better fighter than the MW version.
and trinidad obviously forged his HOF career at 147.. he's one of the greats of that weight. i'm saying he was a good fighter at MW.
Tarver was a legitimate win. weight-drained or not.
Yes I realize that... I am the one who pointed it out :headscratch:
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
Hopkins is greater than PBF, like it or not.
he has the better resume and showed the same level of ring dominance.
I guess you somehow dispute the above referenced validity Hopkins biggest wins over significantly smaller guys?
I think Nard had a great career and I appreciate all he has done, but I am barking up his tree to illustrate how Floyd is getting ripped on for fighting Hatton and JMM and then all of a sudden given the circumstances involved he is labeled as a big mean school yard bully who only picks on smaller fighters?
Yet Hopkins did it at just about every big fight in his career. Just dosent add up and thats all I was pointing out.
I don't recall Hopkins accusing Mayweather as a fighter picking on smaller fighters.
In most of Hopkins big fights he was the underdog so i don't understand how you can accuse him of picking on smaller fighters when he wasn't supposed to beat them.
For example Trinidad,Wright and Pavlik were the favourites to beat Hopkins.
Trinidad was supposed to ko Hopkins, instead all he got was a 12 round schooling and his ass sent into retirement. That was when the weight excuses came along.
Wright was supposed to have too much workrate for the 42 year old Hopkins to deal with but instead Hopkins ends up outworking Wright to a close but clear decision. The weight excuse didn't come along till \wright had an L in his loss column.
Pavlik was supposed to have too much pressure and power for the old man Hopkins to handle but instead Pavlik gets the biggest ass whooping in his career and loses by a pure shut out. surprise surprise people mention how Pavlik shouldn't of moved up to 170 when it wasn't a problem before the fight no ? Pavlik's bad performance had nothing to do with the fact that Hopkins used lateral movement, constant angles, his sharp defense, quick counters and superior handspeed to totally stun Pavlik. no it wasn't was it. :rolleyes:
Then there's the DLH fight who i am willing to admit wasn't the fair fight as Hopkins was simply too big for Oscar. One thing people due tend to forget though, is that they fought at a catchweight of 156 which was only two pounds shy of where DLH was natural at..... at that stage of his career.
then once you include his big win over Tarver ( he was weight drained right ? :rolleyes:), that wasn't the case before though as Tarver was the clear favourite to win.
After all of that include solid wins over Eastman, Echols, Lipsey and Johnson and you got a man with a great career.
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
he still dominated Johnson and Tarver.
trinidad actually proved himself a top fighter by whooping Joppy. the hopkins-trinidad fight is as good as the sweet science gets.
Certainly your not going to suggest Tito at 160 was anywere near the hall of Fame legacy he forged at 147 are you?
Tarver got Karma in his face by being drained from a heavy in Rocky Balboa.
Glen Johnson wasnt nearly as good at 160 than he was at 175 either..Glen was a construction worker/slash boxer until he got his big break against Jones
I would actually favor Johnson over Hop now at 175 based on Glens chin, workrate and constant pressure. Hop trying to spoil on the inside wouldnt deter Glen since he likes it messy on the inside. Hopkins enemic output would be his demise against Johnsons aggression and volume
dude don't try to downplay Hopkins' wins cause it'll come back to bite you in the ass, mainly cause it can easily be done with Mayweather
Corrales, Hernandez, Chavez, and Castillo weren't at their peak when Mayweather took them on (Chavez & Hernandez still hadn't won titles, and Castillo although he should have a win over Mayweather wasn't the fighter that basically owned the lightweight division till his fight with Corrales)
Corley had already lost to Judah, Gatti already shot, Mitchell was already way past it, Judah had already lost to Baldomir, do i believe any of that crap, no, but it can easily be implicated
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
Hopkins is greater than PBF, like it or not.
he has the better resume and showed the same level of ring dominance.
I guess you somehow dispute the above referenced validity Hopkins biggest wins over significantly smaller guys?
I think Nard had a great career and I appreciate all he has done, but I am barking up his tree to illustrate how Floyd is getting ripped on for fighting Hatton and JMM and then all of a sudden given the circumstances involved he is labeled as a big mean school yard bully who only picks on smaller fighters?
Yet Hopkins did it at just about every big fight in his career. Just dosent add up and thats all I was pointing out.
I don't recall Hopkins accusing Mayweather as a fighter picking on smaller fighters.
In most of Hopkins big fights he was the underdog so i don't understand how you can accuse him of picking on smaller fighters when he wasn't supposed to beat them.
For example Trinidad,Wright and Pavlik were the favourites to beat Hopkins.
Trinidad was supposed to ko Hopkins, instead all he got was a 12 round schooling and his ass sent into retirement. That was when the weight excuses came along.
Wright was supposed to have too much workrate for the 42 year old Hopkins to deal with but instead Hopkins ends up outworking Wright to a close but clear decision. The weight excuse didn't come along till \wright had an L in his loss column.
Pavlik was supposed to have too much pressure and power for the old man Hopkins to handle but instead Pavlik gets the biggest ass whooping in his career and loses by a pure shut out. surprise surprise people mention how Pavlik shouldn't of moved up to 170 when it wasn't a problem before the fight no ? Pavlik's bad performance had nothing to do with the fact that Hopkins used lateral movement, constant angles, his sharp defense, quick counters and superior handspeed to totally stun Pavlik. no it wasn't was it. :rolleyes:
Then there's the DLH fight who i am willing to admit wasn't the fair fight as Hopkins was simply too big for Oscar. One thing people due tend to forget though, is that they fought at a catchweight of 156 which was only two pounds shy of where DLH was natural at..... at that stage of his career.
then once you include his big win over Tarver ( he was weight drained right ? :rolleyes:), that wasn't the case before though as Tarver was the clear favourite to win.
After all of that include solid wins over Eastman, Echols, Lipsey and Johnson and you got a man with a great career.
plus bhop dominated his division, has floyd? bhop may have taken on smaller fighters then him but he took care of business unlike floyd. floyds division is filled with threats he aint have the balls to take care of.
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Julius Rain
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
I guess you somehow dispute the above referenced validity Hopkins biggest wins over significantly smaller guys?
I think Nard had a great career and I appreciate all he has done, but I am barking up his tree to illustrate how Floyd is getting ripped on for fighting Hatton and JMM and then all of a sudden given the circumstances involved he is labeled as a big mean school yard bully who only picks on smaller fighters?
Yet Hopkins did it at just about every big fight in his career. Just dosent add up and thats all I was pointing out.
I don't recall Hopkins accusing Mayweather as a fighter picking on smaller fighters.
In most of Hopkins big fights he was the underdog so i don't understand how you can accuse him of picking on smaller fighters when he wasn't supposed to beat them.
For example Trinidad,Wright and Pavlik were the favourites to beat Hopkins.
Trinidad was supposed to ko Hopkins, instead all he got was a 12 round schooling and his ass sent into retirement. That was when the weight excuses came along.
Wright was supposed to have too much workrate for the 42 year old Hopkins to deal with but instead Hopkins ends up outworking Wright to a close but clear decision. The weight excuse didn't come along till \wright had an L in his loss column.
Pavlik was supposed to have too much pressure and power for the old man Hopkins to handle but instead Pavlik gets the biggest ass whooping in his career and loses by a pure shut out. surprise surprise people mention how Pavlik shouldn't of moved up to 170 when it wasn't a problem before the fight no ? Pavlik's bad performance had nothing to do with the fact that Hopkins used lateral movement, constant angles, his sharp defense, quick counters and superior handspeed to totally stun Pavlik. no it wasn't was it. :rolleyes:
Then there's the DLH fight who i am willing to admit wasn't the fair fight as Hopkins was simply too big for Oscar. One thing people due tend to forget though, is that they fought at a catchweight of 156 which was only two pounds shy of where DLH was natural at..... at that stage of his career.
then once you include his big win over Tarver ( he was weight drained right ? :rolleyes:), that wasn't the case before though as Tarver was the clear favourite to win.
After all of that include solid wins over Eastman, Echols, Lipsey and Johnson and you got a man with a great career.
plus bhop dominated his division, has floyd? bhop may have taken on smaller fighters then him but he took care of business unlike floyd. floyds division is filled with threats he aint have the balls to take care of.
Thats quite an oxymoron Rains.. The whole premise of this conversation was to draw an illustration of how Floyd is all of a sudden fighting nothing but smaller fighters. So what your implying is Floyd is doing nothing wrong as long as he keeps fighting smaller guys coming up in weight like Hopkins :headscratch:
Again its foolish to try and compare a severly lacking Middleweight division that BHop ruled than the golden Era of the 140's today.
Point being you cant rake on Floyd for fighting 2 guys back to back that were not Welters and than laud Hop for doing it. Sorry dosent add up, any way you spin it, undeniably Hops biggest wins were against guys that were naturally smaller than him.
I am not tainting Hop's career he deserves all of his due and accolades, I'm just making a comparison on how its a blatant double standard
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Tito going in total different direction from JMM with added weight & had legitimized himself at Middle with destruction of Champion Joppy....also I'm sure he was actually the favorite going in vs. Hopkins with a match with Roy Jones waiting in the wings.
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
he still dominated Johnson and Tarver.
trinidad actually proved himself a top fighter by whooping Joppy. the hopkins-trinidad fight is as good as the sweet science gets.
Certainly your not going to suggest Tito at 160 was anywere near the hall of Fame legacy he forged at 147 are you?
Tarver got Karma in his face by being drained from a heavy in Rocky Balboa.
Glen Johnson wasnt nearly as good at 160 than he was at 175 either..Glen was a construction worker/slash boxer until he got his big break against Jones
I would actually favor Johnson over Hop now at 175 based on Glens chin, workrate and constant pressure. Hop trying to spoil on the inside wouldnt deter Glen since he likes it messy on the inside. Hopkins enemic output would be his demise against Johnsons aggression and volume
dude don't try to downplay Hopkins' wins cause it'll come back to bite you in the ass, mainly cause it can easily be done with Mayweather
Corrales, Hernandez, Chavez, and Castillo weren't at their peak when Mayweather took them on (Chavez & Hernandez still hadn't won titles, and Castillo although he should have a win over Mayweather wasn't the fighter that basically owned the lightweight division till his fight with Corrales)
Corley had already lost to Judah, Gatti already shot, Mitchell was already way past it, Judah had already lost to Baldomir, do i believe any of that crap, no, but it can easily be implicated
1st and foremost your way off point here, no one is discrediting Hopkins wins, for the upteenth time I am drawing a comparison and pointing out that you cant label Mayweather as a guy who all of a sudden has made a habit out of fighting smaller guys, when Hops biggest wins were against undersized opponents, you cant escape that reality its truthful factual information.
Then you are spouting off all the guys Floyd fought and are rambling on about how they werent this or that, when it reality Floyd beat those guys WHO WERE HIS OWN SIZE OR BIGGER THAN HIM, then you are using severly delusional hindsight to say they didnt do this that or the other thing till after Floyd.:rolleyes:
Go ahead dude put your money were your mouth is and make a whole new thread out on the main board and knock Mayweathers wins against Castillo, Corrales, Chavez etc. and see what kind of responses you'll get. I'll be sure to wear kevlar boxers so I dont get bit in the ass to bad:rolleyes:
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
I dont have an issue with people being in agreement and I am certainly far from " The all knowing JT" Nor have I ever made such a proclomation. What had me adgitated was the fact mayweather came back from an almost 2 year layoff and wiped out JMM to the point where he landed only 69 punches in a 12 round fight utilizing over 200 landed jabs and defense. I dont think having JMM as a comeback fight warrants all the denigrating talk thats been going around, simple as that.
It cracks me up people will say Floyd only fights small guys, really no one wanted to see the Hatton fight? Bullshit!! that was one of the most talked about supposed dream match for years and then JMM calls Floyd out and he makes that his comeback fight and all of a sudden Floyd picks on smaller guys:rolleyes:
Then people say he should fight Shane now and he is a pu$$y if he dosent, meanwhile where was Shane the 2x Floyd called him out? Exactly... But people lauded Shane and Hop for disrespecting Floyd and grandstanding during his interview, saying Shanes a stand up guy and good for him although Mosely was implicated in the Balco scandal for Roids and blood doping for the Oscar fight:rolleyes:
Listen JT, Floyd is a dominant fighter. NO debate about that statement. The knock on him is that he has never faced a true, elite welterweight although he has fought at welterweight for the last 4 years. That will always be the knock on him. This debate was happening when Floyd retired two years ago and his domination over Marquez doesn't change anything because Marquez was another smaller fighter he dominated. I won't argue that Floyd may beat all the elite welterweights out there, but he hasn't fought one! Not a single one. And for a while, it was claimed to be the deepest division.
I would rather see Floyd wipe the floor with the elite welterweights than beat up guys who shouldn't fight above 140. Doing so will solidify his greatness.
Floyd will beat him, but at least Pacquiao is willing to be the smaller man and the underdog when going into his fights (he was smaller and the underdog against ODLH and was smaller than Hatton and will be against Cotto). Pacquiao is vulnerable. He takes risks. That is why people like him.
People will say Baldo was a weak Champ, and I agree 100000% but none the less he wasnt a fringe nabo or any other single title holder. He was considered the lineal Champ. Then he fought Oscar for bocu bucks and Hatton for a bizillion dollars too..
No fighter in the History of the sport would have turned down those 2 paydays against DLH and Hatton, no one!! DLH and Baldo enjoyed big damn advantages size wise. He retires, takes a break then takes a get my feet wet agin fight with JMM. So how does Floyd all of a sudden make a career out of fighting smaller guys?
Floyd should be judged adversly on his next few fights if they are against subpar guys who have no business at the weight, but its ridiculous people would go apeshit for making 2 of the richest fights in this era and then taking on JMM albeit a smaller version just to get his feet wet.
Then you have a guy like Hopkins who's biggest wins were against smaller fighters but yet his ass is kissed royally.
Trinidad
DLH
Wright
Pavlik
Etc.
Then he gets beat by Calzaghe who made a career out of 168.
I understand why (money as you pointed out) Floyd fought Hatton and DLH, but that doesn't detract from the fact that he hasn't faced an elite welterweight and he has campaigned at the weight for five years (Baldomir doesn't count, sorry). And he needed an easy match-up for his comeback fight so he chose Marquez. Fair enough. From this point going forward he needs to fight dominant guys at his weight class and if there aren't any dominant fighters at his weight class, then he should go up in weight, not down in weight, to look for them. That's all.
Hopkins v. PBF is a good question and deserves a whole thread.
One more thing, PBF may have reclaimed his p4p #1 spot from Pac, but Pac easily reclaims it if he beats Cotto (although I don't think he will).
Re: Gives me great pleasure to say this** IMO**
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Tito going in total different direction from JMM with added weight & had legitimized himself at Middle with destruction of Champion Joppy....also I'm sure he was actually the favorite going in vs. Hopkins with a match with Roy Jones waiting in the wings.
seriously am I on another Fukin planet here? This isint about JMM, this is about how ALL OF YOUR GUYS REPOITRE of hate has the addition now of how Floyd is a guy who only fights Small guys:rolleyes: So maybe Trinidad wasnt the best example, but now we'll ignore
Wright
Pavlik
Dlh
Calzaghe, who beat Hopkins.
etc.
I cant believe of all people Spicoli I gotta hammer this home repetitively to get you off of my ass too... Big deal he fought JMM after 21 months out of the ring, it was a comeback fight a litmus test for chrise sakes. then before that he took a bizillion dollar dream fight against Hatton, which for the preceding years was one of the most heated debates of this decade over who would win, this was a HUGE FIGHT WORLDWIDE... You guys were right though he should have skipped on all of that and fought Margarito who just had got beaten by a prospect at the time Paul Williams(using elterriblemorrales logic here since it seems to be the only thing working for all of you) or Cotto who already had a fight lined up with Mosely who all of you think he should have fought too even though they were both contracted to fight each other
Prior to all of that Floyd gave up size plenty.. Look at his career its littered with it
